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Message |
    
Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 1253
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 2:14 pm: | 
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I have been trying to find answers to two questions dealing with Astronomy. After two days of searching I am running out of time, and have no clue what the answers may be. They are multiple choice questions so there is always the chance that I could correctly guess the answers, but I though perhaps someone on MOL may hold the key to these answers.
1. Younger stars have more heavy elements because:
A. old stars destroy heavy elements as they age.
B. young stars burn their nuclear fuels fatser.
C. the heavy elements were made in previous generations of stars.
D. heavy elements haven't had time to settle to the core of these younger stars.
E. All of the above.
2. Looking up into the sky from Earth, the planets will in general be:
A. anywhere in the sky. (My best guess)
B. fairly close to the Sun.
C. fairly close to the Ecliptic.
D. fairly close to the Celestial Equator.
E. anywhere in the sky except fairly close to the sun.
I know that there is very little chance of someone actually being able to answer these two questions for me, but I thought maybe I would get lucky and find a college astronomy major out there. Any help is appreciated. |
Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 1254
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 2:15 pm: |
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I realize that maybe I should have put this in the "Please Help" section. |
Nancy - LibraryLady
Supporter
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 3364
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 2:16 pm: |
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I'll pass this on to mine husband the physicist. (We met whle he was teaching astronomy and I was a student. HEHEHEHEHEH). Hopefully he'll know the answers!! |
Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 1255
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 2:18 pm: |
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Thank you very much. I have spent quite a while trying to find these answers with no luck. |
Brett
Citizen
Username: Bmalibashksa
Post Number: 2294
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 2:25 pm: |
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I did a lot of celestial navigation in the navy, my experience tells me
2. Looking up into the sky from Earth, the planets will in general be:
A. anywhere in the sky.
But that doesn’t mean I’m right, I may have just not found the pattern
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Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 1256
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 2:34 pm: |
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I think I agree with you. Because planets orbit the sun at different speeds, and with the earth rotating, I would think that they could be anywhere. However, this is just my guess. And my guesses about astronomy mean nothing.
Unless I get a difinative answer disagreeing with this I am going to guess A.
Thanks Brett. |
greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 7484
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 2:37 pm: |
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So, LL. what grade did you get?
Mayor - I swear that the thread was asking about "anatomy" and I was all prepared to jump in. Astronomy, not so much. |
Nancy - LibraryLady
Supporter
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 3365
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 2:46 pm: |
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An A of course  |
Nancy - LibraryLady
Supporter
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 3366
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 2:48 pm: |
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Answers are trivial for one such as me:
1. C Heavy elements are created as stars age and the fusion
processes
cook them. When stars become old enough, they
usually have explosions
during which much of the material escapes into
space. Later it is captured
when new generations of stars are formed.
2 C All of the planets circle the Sun in the same plane,
more or less, due to the fact that
they were all formed the same way from swirling
clouds of gas and dust. The name
for that orbital plane is the ECLIPTIC. It is tilted
by 23 degreees from the CELESTIAL
EQUATOR.
Rich Janow , Ph.D.
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Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 1258
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 3:05 pm: |
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Thank you so much, LL! You are the best! I knew MOL would come in handy one of these days!
I had been discussing question 2 with a friend and had just about decided to change my guess to C, but with some reservations. This makes it so much easier.
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Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 1259
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 3:09 pm: |
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I almost forgot. Thank you Rich! |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 13989
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 3:53 pm: |
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Rich, I think you just did someone's homework for him.
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Nancy - LibraryLady
Supporter
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 3367
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 3:56 pm: |
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I was initially concerned about that too, Tom. But since it was a take home type question as he was allowed to "look" for the answer, I felt this was a legitimate place to look. As least, we know he got correct information! |
Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 1260
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 4:01 pm: |
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Tom, that is correct. However, the way that I see it is like this: when they give me these questions they expect me to find the answers. I found all the answers except these two using conventional methods such as notes, lectures, texts, and the internet. These last two questions I used a more unconventional method to answer. I reached out to the message board and found the answers here.
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Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 13990
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 4:02 pm: |
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No luck at the library?
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Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 1261
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 4:02 pm: |
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Really, this is the same as if Mr. Janow had written a book and I had found the answers in that. The only true difference is this way is much more efficient. |
Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 1262
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 4:03 pm: |
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There sure was, LibraryLady! |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 13991
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 4:05 pm: |
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Efficiency is not necessarily good. By reading a few extra books, or even just skimming them, you'd pick up knowledge that didn't answer your question but is of benefit to you. Also, the process itself is of benefit. I believe that's one reason why teachers assign research projects.
Also, your questions were far from random, as you claimed they were. They were an assignment.
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Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 1263
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 4:07 pm: |
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They were random to anyone who would read this thread. As I stated in the first line of this thread, I have been searching for these answers for 2 days and have not come across a difinative answer to either of them. So, it should be obvious that these were not random questions to me. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 13993
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 4:10 pm: |
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Hey, Rich didn't mind helping you, so more power to you.
But to me, "random" meant they came out of idle curiosity. An assignment is a responsibility, which is the opposite of random. That's why I think you misrepresented your motive. But you got what you want, so you don't have to convince me of anything if you don't want to.
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greenetree
Supporter
Username: Greenetree
Post Number: 7489
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 4:10 pm: |
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In research, we interview experts all the time and cite them as references. Look thru peer-reviewed journal articles and textbooks and you'll see that it is quite common and acceptable to have an expert's name, followed by "personal communication" and the date.
If the Mayor has a paper due and cites Richard Janow, PhD, Professor of Whatever or Scientist, XYZ Corporation with the date, I am pretty sure that he won't have a problem. |
Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 1264
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 4:11 pm: |
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Tom, let say for instance your boss at work has asked you for an answer to a question. You don't know the answer, but ask a friend, coworker, or random person for help in answering this question. You give the boss your answer and it turns out to be correct. Does this mean you did the wrong thing by asking for help? I don't see it that way. I see this way: you solved the answer for your boss, just because you had to ask for help doesn't mean that you are not suited for this job. It means that you have resources and you know how to use them. |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1235
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 4:12 pm: |
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except of course if he took Brett, navy celestial navigators answer.
(Sorry Brett).
Mayor - How about posting the rest of this test for us to trip over? |
Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 1265
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 4:13 pm: |
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It is not a paper, but an assignment featuring many of these multiple choice syle questions and a few other various types of questions.
Tom, I do not feel that by asking for help I have done anything wrong. |
Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 1266
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 4:15 pm: |
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Hoops, if I needed help with any more of the questions you can bet that I would have no problem posting them, asking for help, meating with people who could help me, searching the internet, reading books, looking through notes, or doing anything I could to answer whatever questions that I needed to. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 13995
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 4:15 pm: |
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Mayor, it depends on the assignment. Some assignments give you a list of permitted resources. Some give you forbidden resources. Some have a mix. In the world of work, getting the job done is pretty much all that matters, as long as you do it legally. Getting the answers to an assignment is not paramount in school. Learning is. Hey, you could get the answers from your teacher's notebook. That's resourceful, but it's not right.
And as I said, the process is just as important as the knowledge you gain. If knowledge were paramount, the teacher would just give you reading assignments, and the exam would merely ask you to repeat it all.
Correct grammar and spelling are important, even outside English class. That's because process matters, not just results.
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Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1236
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 4:19 pm: |
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Mayor, I wanted to see it for my own self interest. I have a small astronomy jones that I scratch now and then, so a little test to see what I have retained would be fun.
I am not in agreement with Tom on this one. I think as a take home test you can use whatever resources are available to you and asking general questions of people is just one method to find your answers. Of course it could be much like So You Want To Be A Millionaire. The audience may not always be correct with your 'lifeline'.
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Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 1267
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 4:20 pm: |
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Tom, school is no longer about learning. At least not a college. College is about getting a piece of paper so that you can get a job. (With some notable exceptions such as doctors)
As for this assignment, there was no list of permitted or restricted sources for me to use. And yes, if the teacher had handed me his notebook and said "these are the answers" I would have used them. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 13997
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 4:21 pm: |
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Hoops, I'm not saying asking people for help with an assignment is wrong. But I think it's important to say what you're doing honestly.
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Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 1268
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 4:23 pm: |
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Hoops, if you would really like to see the assignment I would be happy to email you a copy of it. Most of the questions are more technical than this, but are not extremely hard. This is just an intro course that I took because I thought it would be interesting. It was not. Worst teacher I ever had... by far. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 13998
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 4:24 pm: |
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Mayor,
Our posts keep crossing.
If you're after a piece of paper to get a job and are picking up knowledge only incidentally to your quest for the paper, you might find in the end that you have neither knowledge nor a job.
College doesn't usually lead directly to the job. It builds experience, character, skills, that are useful for work.
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Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1237
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 4:29 pm: |
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I understand your point Tom. In fact it is the most beneficial to Mayor, should he choose to walk that disciplined line, but I suppose I think more practically in these matters.
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Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 1269
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 4:29 pm: |
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Tom, I was not trying to misrepresent myself on this thread. I still really don't think that I did. These questions are very random to anyone who might read them. I would say that we may have had a misunderstanding, but I would not say that I in any way tried to lie or coverup why I needed these answers.
I take offense to you infering that I was not being honest in my attempt to find answers to my questions. I have been very truthful throughout this thread.
And thank you again to those who helped me out. I really do appreciate the help. |
Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 1270
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 4:36 pm: |
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"If you're after a piece of paper to get a job and are picking up knowledge only incidentally to your quest for the paper, you might find in the end that you have neither knowledge nor a job."
Yes, perhaps theoretically.
But more realistically one who has a degree in a business related field simply will be retrained to do a fairly specific job when entering the work force. If you ask just about any student why they choose to go to get a higher education you will find that most do not go to gain more knowledge. Most go to either get a better job then what they currently qualify for, or to get the same job at a higher pay rate.
"It builds experience, character, skills, that are useful for work."
I don't disagree with this, mostly. But I would say that just about anything that you do from the ages of 18 - 23 will help to build experience, character, and skills that are useful for work. College just happens to fall during these years of a person’s life.
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Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 14000
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 4:37 pm: |
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Rather than imply (not infer) that you were being dishonest, I will simply recommend that next time you ask for help with your homework, you use the term "my homework" in your request. It certainly won't make your request less clear.
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Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 1271
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 4:39 pm: |
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Well, as much as I love to debate, I must go now. I have a lot more work to get done. If I finish enough in the next few hours I may be able to stop by the F2F at Here's to the Arts tonight.
Tom, while I may disagree with you on this I do enjoy the conversation. Take care and I will talk to you later. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 14001
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 4:43 pm: |
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Glad there are no hard feelings. I always enjoy talking with you.
Feel free to respond later, even much later.
I disagree that anything you do during the college years is of equal value. You're doing more than just marking time. You could be boosting cars or doing gang bangs. Or just smoking weed playing video games and living off your parents' dough.
I'm not saying school is the best thing for everyone. I took two years off after my first two years of college. It was time well spent.
The skill of acquiring knowledge is more valuable than the knowledge you acquire. That's the counterargument to a student's plea "Why I gotta learn this stuff?"
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Nancy - LibraryLady
Supporter
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 3368
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 5:45 pm: |
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Wow, I just reread the thread and I thought I had added a line in my original post about asking Mr. (Dr.!) LL. It asked the Mayor if this was a homework assignment. I was concerned that ,omg, it might even be a assignment that the Dr. himself assigned !. But somehow, my initial post was truncated and that line disappeared.
But, I still feel that this was an okay use of the Board. If the teacher had specifically said no outside help, I would be disappointed with the Mayor. But I hope he waas honorable enuf not to ask for fobidden help. But yes, Tom, it would of been preferable if he had specically said why he was asking for help.
Now I only hope the answers were right  |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1239
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 7:17 pm: |
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Mayor - fyi there is an excellent website that will find on the net any information you want while you wait.
http://www.qandanj.com/
the website has librarians waiting to help find you the answers to the types of questions you asked. they help with research papers and they help when you need trivial things found as well.
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CLK
Supporter
Username: Clkelley
Post Number: 2247
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 7:37 pm: |
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I don't think it's ethically wrong to use the resources at your disposal, provided that you learned something from the answers. (and provided that the assignment specifically allowed it.) As an instructor my main concern is that students learn something in my class. That's why I'm there, and if they don't learn then I've done something wrong.
But I have to tell you, Mayor - what you wrote about college really hurts a lot. Most of us in the game are very committed to a love of learning (both the love of learning itself, and helping students feel the same). It's on the short list of things that gives life meaning for me. I think most of your profs probably feel the same. Hearing students say "it's just a piece of paper to help me get a job" is indication that we've failed.
I'd like to hear from you (after exams are over) about how you acquired that cynical attitude towards learning, and any insights into how colleges could change to help stimulate that love of learning that most of us in higher ed care so much about. |
Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 1272
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 8:52 pm: |
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CLK, I would have to say that very few of my college professors taught for the love of teaching.
I sat in class today turning in this last assignment and watched people compare answers as the teacher looked on. I asked for help on this from MOL, but I did not just copy the answers from the person sitting next to me. The teacher is awful. Everything is PowerPoint slides that he reads off of the projector. Just about 100% of the material on homework comes directly out of the slides. He posts these slides on the web and takes no attendance. So it is easy to just click "find" type in the word and have your answer. Everything is multiple choice, and yet he only handed back assignments today that were due in several months ago. This is the typical type of teacher I have had. I paid $3,000 for this class because I need the credits.
Another class is all attendance and memorization. This is political science. He simply puts lists of things on the board. For each test he asks you to write down all his lists. I can't believe I pay for this crap. There is no conversation and no learning. Simply memorization followed by forgetting the list forever to make more for more lists of things. I paid $3,000 for this class because I need the credits.
I am an economics major who has finished just about every requirement for econ. I am going to school to fill up the credit requirements needed for the school of arts and sciences. Why? I don't know. I wish I could just cut them a check for $15,000 and be done with it. That is really all they want, money.
And the waste of these schools kills me. At the school I transferred from they paid over $40,000 to train a dog as a "security dog." After paying all this money the school decided that too many people would think of the dog as a drug dog so they just gave the dog to the person who trained it, a campus police officer. He is the one who told me this story. A few days later I guess he told too many people about the waste and they made him sign a gag order or lose his job. That at the time was 2 years tuition at the school! Wasted on dog! That they didn't even use!
Sorry this has turned into a rant. CLK, it is nice to know that some teachers do care. Not all my teachers have been a waste of space, but I would say that most of them have been. (College teachers I am speaking of) Maybe one day we can sit down and discuss this, but it will have to be after this week. I have to get back to studying.
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Jersey Boy
Citizen
Username: Jersey_boy
Post Number: 645
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 9:17 pm: |
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Who really read those questions and didn't realize it was a test. COME ON.
Also, The Mayor takes a chance using this resource for answers. In a book, he can site his source. Here he takes his chances that Library Lady's husband is actually a Ph.D.
I mean, what if I had gotten here and told him what I thought the answers were. AND he used them. His mistake. This isn't a library.
Kids much younger ask their parents for definitions when they have vocabulary homework.
I remember my dad telling me the wrong meaning for "virtually." I busted him on it.
J.B. |
Nancy - LibraryLady
Supporter
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 3372
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 9:19 pm: |
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The Mayor..take Dr. LL's course. You'll love astronomy and physics. |
stefano
Citizen
Username: Stefano
Post Number: 491
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 9:28 pm: |
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I would have gone for the 50/50 first, then phone a friend. |
Jersey Boy
Citizen
Username: Jersey_boy
Post Number: 647
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 9:30 pm: |
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Oh man, I meant "cite his source." See what I mean about getting advice on-line?
J.B. |
CLK
Supporter
Username: Clkelley
Post Number: 2249
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 9:36 pm: |
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Mayor, I hear too much of this. I don't like to judge when I don't know the teachers, but from what you wrote - that's just plain old bad teaching. I hope you don't go to the school where I teach. Let's have a beer once your finals are over. ;-)
And I'll tell you who at your university you need to talk to - you'll be surprised how willing people are to listen to students, if you approach the topic the right way. |
Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 1273
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 10:21 pm: |
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I took a physics course last semester, but it apparently didn't count as a science. (Strange, I know) My advisor never bothered to tell me that. Teacher was very enthusiastic, but not a great teacher. It was like taking 2 different classes in one. One was what we did in class, I learned a good bit. The other was the tests that had absolutely nothing to do with anything we learned in class. The tests were strictly out of the book while the actual classes did not even deal with the topics in the book in any way at all, not even remotely. I don’t like trashing this guy’s course, because he was a very nice guy, but the class was insane. The first test I got 9 wrong out of 25 multiple choice questions and ended up with an A after the curve. I guess I shouldn’t complain about that, but the test material didn’t even resemble anything that was covered in the classes.
LL, I think I may be done with attempting to take science classes there. I was never a big fan of math, but I think I am growing to hate both astronomy and physics. From now on I think I will stick to classes like bowling.
CLK, I hope I don’t go to your school! I would hate to find out that I was trashing any of your friends or colleagues. A beer sounds good, and I could use advise on teachers.
OK, now I have really wasted a lot of time. I need to go...
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LazyDog
Citizen
Username: Lazydog
Post Number: 263
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 10:23 pm: |
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Mayor, you probably don't know, but I have a formal qualification in astronony and navigation...we need to talk. Your questions should be answerable by anyone with "basic" education |
yabbadabbadoo
Citizen
Username: Yabbadabbadoo
Post Number: 348
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 10:59 pm: |
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Ecliptic Plane
If the sun's path is observed from the Earth's reference frame, it appears to move around the Earth in a path which is tilted with respect to the spin axis at 23.5°. This path is called the ecliptic. It tells us that the Earth's spin axis is tilted with respect to the plane of the Earth's solar orbit by 23.5°. Observations show that the other planets, with the exception of Pluto, also orbit the sun in essentially the same plane. The ecliptic plane then contains most of the objects which are orbiting the sun. This suggests that the formation process of the solar system resulted in a disk of material out of which formed the sun and the planets. The 23.5° tilt of the Earth's spin axis gives the seasonal variations in the amount of sunlight received at the surface.
Pluto 's orbit is exceptional in that its orbit makes an angle of 17° with the Earth's orbit . This has led to a number of theories about Pluto's origin. Mercury is the only other planet which moves significantly away from the ecliptic plane ( 7°) .
source
FF |
patty
Citizen
Username: Patty
Post Number: 476
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 1, 2006 - 11:51 pm: |
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Gorgeous planetary views right now in that ecliptic arc. Saturn is sorta overhead at about 8 pm these days. Jupiter is low in the east (about 30 degrees high right now) but rising earlier each night as everything moves/sinks westward all the time. When you can see the moon, which is more or less in that ecliptic arc, it's easier to pick out the line the planets are in. When you face south (or your best estimate of it) the planets are not quite overhead but a bit 'south' of overhead. Btw, binoculars will show the Galilean moons in a straight line on either side of Jupiter. Mid-end of May should be wonderful for this (Mapleberry Star Party somewhere perhaps?)
The ecliptic helped me learn the constellations (perhaps actually a little easier in our light-polluted sky -- a fully dark sky chock full of stars probably confuses the beginner). This arc-path of the sun contains all the zodiac constellations, so celebrated for being in this position. That's also a way to learn what's what up there.
Nice thread. |
Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 1274
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 - 12:06 am: |
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I remember when a friend of mine took an astronomy class a couple years ago he spent a lot of time outside plotting stars and watching the night sky for observations. I figured that was what most astronomy courses were like. I was wrong. I was lectured to about the names of constellations, but I don't even think I could pick one out of the sky if I had to. I don't even think I could find Polaris (I know the name, but what good is that if I don't know where it is?) |
patty
Citizen
Username: Patty
Post Number: 477
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 - 12:43 am: |
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I got into it as a hobby and 'just looking' is a big part of the magic for me, but I realize astronomy courses are heavy on physics (not the easy elective or requirement students expect). I don't know how I'd handle it on that level, but I find that as time goes on, and at my own pace, I can master some concepts. Local astronomy groups are great for passing on information with infectious enthusiasm; it's a no-pressure thing that one does because one loves it.
Though I have a telescope, I spend many charmed moments using binoculars, just looking, seeing something really pretty like two different-colored adjacent stars, and then being inspired to 'look it up.' And once you know a large, well-known constellation like Orion, you grow to remember the one next to it, and so on. (Incidentally, Polaris is hard to locate, or even see, without at least binoculars. It's pivotal in astronomy...and seafaring ;-), but rather anti-climatic for all that.) |
CLK
Supporter
Username: Clkelley
Post Number: 2250
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 - 8:41 am: |
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I have some expertise in something called Learning Outcomes Assessment. This is a way to demonstrate to accreditation boards and others that students are learning what they are supposed to be learning in a course or curriculum.
One of the basic concepts of LOA is that all course activities are aligned with your learning objectives. As a student, at the beginning of the course, you should get a statement of the course learning objectives. Ideally, these are written so that they are measurable. E.g. you don't say, "the student will be exposed to concepts in astronomy." Instead, you might say, "the student will be able to describe the life cycle of a star as it applies to stars in at least three categories." (I'm taking a stab at this based on the question you gave above - I don't know a lot about astronomy.) College instructors often need a lot of help getting their learning objectives nailed down. One major issue is that they want to talk about internal states (what the student learned) as opposed to observable states (what the student can do, demonstrate, say .... ). The former is difficult to measure accurately. First of all, you need to say what you mean by "learned" something - which is a lot tougher than it sounds.
People often resort to multiple-choice tests (which are evil imho ;-) because they tend to be "reliable," i.e. getting the right answer on one question tends to correlate well with getting the answers right on the other questions. But this doesn't always mean that the test is "valid," i.e., a good measure of what you learned in the class. I was always good at these tests and aced them whether I studied or not. I had friends who studied their butts off and couldn't pass a multiple-choice test.
Next, all of the course activities (readings, class discussions, assignments .... ) will be oriented towards helping you achieve those objectives. If an activity doesn't support the learning objectives, but the instructor insists that the activity is important, my feeling is that they have forgotten to articulate an important learning objective. There really should be no exceptions to this scheme.
Finally, all of the class assessments (i.e. graded material) will be consistent with the learning objectives and with the class activities.
Grading should be transparent to students. There should be no guesses about why you got what you did. Ideally, if open-ended essay questions, papers, or other free-format assessments are used, the instructor should provide the students with a grading rubric before the assignment is completed; and grading should use that rubric. Instructors are often VERY opposed to using rubrics - I've heard people say the most outrageous and untrue things about them. However, I have found pretty consistently that if you can somehow cajole an instructor into using rubrics, they very quickly become advocates of this approach. It makes grading easier & faster, and reduces the number of grade challenges - and profs love that. It makes grading transparent to students and provides valuable feedback - and students love that.
Designing a class this way takes work. One thing to bear in mind is that college professors are among the most over-worked people on Earth, and they get paid peanuts for waht they do. Generally speaking, promotion and tenure decisions are NOT made based on ability to teach well, but on research productivity. This is especially so at the state universities or private research-oriented universities. Even at colleges & universities that stress their undergraduate teaching mission, research is still expected. So there is a real disincentive to improving teaching. Most profs want to spend their time doing the activities that are going to get them tenure or promotion. (and who can blame them.)
Also bear in mind that college professors have almost never been taught how to teach. They've been taught the substance and conduct of their disciplines. Some graduate schools have started introducing teaching seminars for their students, but that is still unusual. While some colleges and universities help profs hone their teaching skills by offering the services of a teaching excellence center, a lot don't. And even when such centers exist, unless there are real incentives to use them, faculty often won't. (for all the reasons listed above - time is the biggest concern.)
Generally speaking, if you want a good undergraduate experience, go to a school where teaching is explicitly valued. This might be too late for you, Mayor, but perhaps some younger students and their parents might think along those lines. There are things you can ask in order to get the answers you want before you apply. E.g., ask if they have a teaching excellence center, and how faculty are encouraged to make use of it. If the answer is "no" or "unclear," this might be a bad sign. Ask if there is support for the scholarship of teaching and learning (this means research into the learning process at the higher ed level - schools that encourage this tend to care a lot about teaching.) Ask how strongly teaching is weighted in promotion and tenure decisions. Ask whether learning outcomes assessment is integrated into the campus culture. These questions are all just indicators - there are some colleges where the answers might not sound positive but where there is nonetheless a culture of quality teaching.
OK - that's today's brain dump on quality teaching in higher education. (I am an administrator rather than faculty, though I do teach. My office's mission is improving teaching. So this is my life's work. ;-) |
Mayor McCheese
Supporter
Username: Mayor_mccheese
Post Number: 1280
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 - 10:52 am: |
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CLK, I couldn't agree more with your comments about college professors not being taught how to teach. While just about every professor I have had has been very knowledgeable about the subject they are teaching, most for some reason either have a hard time getting their point across, or present the material in such a way that makes it almost impossible to learn anything. I think a lot of this has to do with teachers missing the point of the class they are teaching. I am taking the course to learn and be able to understand the material better, not to be able to recite verbatim the last 45 minutes of a lecture.
Perhaps the reason is because these teachers are overworked that they spend so little time actually making sure students learn things. I just got out of an exam that consisted 80% of memorizing specific lists of words. I finished the exam at 10:00 and have already forgotten most of them. This is political science, and I learned absolutely nothing. There was no discussion, and it is obvious that the teacher put no thought into the class at all. (And this is not a first year teacher.) he probably just found some book and wherever it said "firstly... secondly... and finally..." wrote that down put it in a powerpoint slide and called it a class. I know this is only one example of one class, but it seems to me to be the prevailing methodology of teaching in college nowadays. (Or perhaps I have just had the worst luck of any college student ever.)
I know this LOA you speak of. Just about every class I have ever taken has had one of these clearly printed somewhere. While I like the idea of knowing what will be covered in the course before we even begin, this really tells nothing of the course. I have gone back and looked over a few of these LOA’s and see that they are a bit embellished. For instance, this course that I was just complaining about says quite a bit about areas that will be covered. (Yes he made a list or two about each of these areas, but did I actually learn anything about these areas? No.)
One of my biggest peeves is the course evaluation forms that are given to students at the end of the semester. The school I attended before transferring to this miserable place at least allowed for some comments to the teacher. Now all I have is a few very specific questions dealing mostly with the LOA and the teacher organization. Questions like “Did you cover what was said in the course goal? Well, yes we did, sort of the teacher wrote down a list of 5 things about some component about it. So I fill in the little circles 1 for strongly disagree to 5 for strongly agree. Was the teacher organized? Well, yes, but I still didn’t learn anything. What is the point of these forms? There is nowhere on this form to say that this teacher is terrible and nothing was learned. It almost seems as though the teachers themselves were the ones who chose the wording on these forms. (Probably because they did.)
It seems kind of a sad reality that college teachers who do outside work and research are regarded more highly than those teachers who actually teach well and have students learn the material.
OK, back to work. I spent too long writing this already and I haven't said 1/5 of what I would like to and don't think I made my points clear enough. But that will have to do for now. Sorry, I have no time to really clarify my rant into a completely coherent opinion. |
CLK
Supporter
Username: Clkelley
Post Number: 2254
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 2, 2006 - 10:58 am: |
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You're coherent enough. I hear this stuff all the time, so can probably fill in a few blanks.
Actually most profs dislike the student evaluation forms, and consider them to be pretty useless. There is a lot of controversy nationally, different theories about how to do them, etc. (actually pertains to a project I'm working on now.)
I'm not going to say any more because you need to study. ;-)
And good luck with your finals, papers, etc. |
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