| Author |
Message |
    
sportsnut
Citizen
Username: Sportsnut
Post Number: 455
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 9, 2003 - 10:45 am: |     |
After the recent rains our basement sustained some water damage (mostly to the newly installed carpeting) and we've now come to the conclusion that we should just remodel the whole basement. We had never had water before and according to the waterproofing people we spoke to won't again anytime soon if we install a battery backup to our sump.
My question is has anyone ever installed electric baseboard heat? Is it a DIY project? Any other suggestions for heating the space?
Also, since the water seeped through a hole in the floor what is the best way to seal the floor? Will a simple sheet of plastic over the existing cement help?
Thanks, |
peteglider
Citizen
Username: Peteglider
Post Number: 161
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 9, 2003 - 11:29 am: | |
Had electric baseboards installed in my basement remodel (other house). They were 220volt, so while its not a technically difficult install -- it does mean opening up the circuit breaker box to install a new line.
Note I said -- "had them installed" ;-)
Pete |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 3196
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 9, 2003 - 1:23 pm: | |
Sports, I would leave installing the baseboard to a pro. Working inside the service panal is scary and with 220 volts safety, both during installation and during use is a big issue.
A sheet of plastic isn't going to hold back the water. Repairing the crack by enlarging it and then pouring new concrete is the only way to go imho, although you might try a special concrete that will dry while wet (hydrostatic concrete?) I used this to seal some cracks in the bulkhead door support in our old house and it worked fine for at least seven or so years. This is, assuming the crack doesn't resemble the Grand Canyon a diy job. |
sportsnut
Citizen
Username: Sportsnut
Post Number: 457
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 9, 2003 - 3:17 pm: | |
Its actually a hole, nearly a perfect circle aboutn an inch and a half in diameter. I also noticed that the concrete floor in the basement is only around an inch or so thick.
I meant using the plastic more as a vapor barrier after the hole is fixed. I was also wondering what to use on the walls since I don't think they've ever been sealed from the inside. I'm assuming another vapor barrier of some sort.
As for the electric - I've worked in the panel before and even had the work inspected to make sure its correct and haven't had a problem. Although 220 volts is a bit more than I'm used to.
Any suggestions as to flooring. The floor is not level so that rules out quite a bit. |
Master Plvmber
Citizen
Username: Master_plvmber
Post Number: 61
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 9, 2003 - 4:51 pm: | |
What is attractive about electric heat at all? Do you have a boiler in the home?
I'm assuming the labor for electrical installation would be cheaper, especially if you do it yourself, but hot water (hydronic) heat is very efficient, comfortable and adaptable to a variety of conditions.
Also, if you are going to do it yourself, why not run all the wires to the panel and let a pro take it from there?
Master_Plvmber
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tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 1565
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 9, 2003 - 9:30 pm: | |
While the initial installation of a hot water baseboard loop may exceed that of elecric, the operating costs should be quite a bit less. If you have steam or hot water heat, consider installing a hot water loop around the basement with a separate thermostat and pump.
Also, if the concrete floor is so thin, why not dig some trenches and install perforated pipe leading to a French drain. That should solve your seepage problems. |
woodstock
Citizen
Username: Woodstock
Post Number: 216
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 9, 2003 - 11:40 pm: | |
Have you considered radiant floor heating? I have no experience with it, but Bob Vila seems to put it in every house... and I'd bet it would keep your feet warm, even with the concrete subfloor. And speaking of subfloor, you might also want to check out www.subflor.com
I think we're all bozos on this bus. |
sportsnut
Citizen
Username: Sportsnut
Post Number: 458
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 7:08 am: | |
Tjohn - Already have a french drain. The problem was quite a bit of rain (almost 4 inches that one saturday) and a loss of power for around six hours during the overnight. Yes I am looking into a battery backup for my sump.
I am curious about this hot water loop. I have the space in my laundry area for an additional hot water heater if necessary and we have been in the initial planning for our kitchen remodel and the subject of radient floor heating has come up for the kitchen. I was wondering if I could have a new gas hot water heater installed to handle both a loop in the basement and the radient heat flooring (when the time comes) in the kitchen.
Right now I have oil steam heat and the hot water comes from a tankless coil system. If electric is not the way to go I'm all ears for any other suggestions.
Thanks, |
Master Plvmber
Citizen
Username: Master_plvmber
Post Number: 62
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 7:38 am: | |
You do not need to buy another water heater or boiler to supply radiant floor heating or baseboard radiators in your basement. Your steam boiler can be fitted with everything it needs to do the job, I'm sure.
Master_Plvmber
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bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 3200
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 8:16 am: | |
The two basements we have had were kept reasonably warm by the boiler and the distribution lines. The cost/effectiveness judgement on using electric heat or hot water baseboard heat is pretty complicated and centers around how warm you want to be, how much you will use the room and for what purposes. Obviously a child's playroom "wants" to be warmer than a workout room.
Given that you have an old tankless loop, which requires the boiler to run 365 days a year and isn't very efficient it might make sense to go go with a gas fired hot water heater(s) for domestic use and to feed a baseboard heating loop in your basement and an underfloor system in the kitchen at a later date. I don't know if this can be done with one heater or if two are required. I am sure Master Plumber will kick in on this subject.
Most basements around here have pretty low ceilings. Even without getting into code requirements, giving up height for an underfloor system might not make a lot of sense. |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 1567
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 10:30 am: | |
Steam boilers have the capacity to support a hot water loop and still deliver steam to the rest of the house. I have about 40 feet of hot water baseboard running off of my steam boiler and it works really well.
I would imagine that installation (parts and labor) could be $1000 or more, but as with the case of gas clothes driers, the operating costs are about half that of electricity, so you may come out ahead in the long-run.
A good plumber will know how to install a hot water loop on a steam boiler. Feel free to cross-check any recommendations right here on MOL. |
sportsnut
Citizen
Username: Sportsnut
Post Number: 459
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 11:00 am: | |
I don't mind spending the money if it will fix the problem. Would the boiler also have the capacity to provide the heat for the potential radient heat floor in the kitchen? |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 1568
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 11:54 am: | |
In theory, all steam boilers have about 30% excess capacity for something called pickup (basically, the energy required to heat the steam pipes while the steam is enroute to the radiators).
In real life, most boilers are not precisely matched to the attached radiation load so you might have a lot of excess capacity or none at all.
What a plumber should do is calculate the attached radiation load (the square footage surface area of all of your radiators). Then add about 50%. The result will be some number like 500 sq ft. Your boiler will be rated at some number of square feet of steam that should be in the neighborhood of the number just calculated.
I think there is a bit of art in all of this, so you should get a good plumber. In the worst case, if you attach more hot water heating than the steam boiler can support, you won't get enough steam if both your radiant heat and basement hot water loop are running.
Also, since steam boiler water tends to be a bit gritty and corrosive, a heat transfer unit might be needed so that steam boiler water is not being run directly through the radiant system. Again, a good plumber will know the right answer here. |
Master Plvmber
Citizen
Username: Master_plvmber
Post Number: 63
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 2:53 pm: | |
Tjohn, your 40 feet of baseboard releases approximately 23,200 btuh total. It probably runs short cycles unless you're heating a large room (663 sq. ft.?). As an add-on, that load may be a lot to ask from a properly-sized steam boiler but yours may be oversized a bit and that worked out well for you.
I agree with you about the efficiency of each. It's like apples and oranges.
Regarding back-up pumps, the non-electric pumps seem to make most sense. They work on water pressure rather than AC or DC electric power.
The problem with battery back-up is the battery needs maintenance that nobody ever does. We had a customer last week with a regular 120v pump, a battery pump and a flooded basement.
Master_Plvmber
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peteglider
Citizen
Username: Peteglider
Post Number: 162
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 3:10 pm: | |
If your basement gets water in it (not that I hope that on you!) -- you will most likely have to replace the electric units -- although they are not too expensive at all.
Having gone through that (twice)-- I did learn something to pass on -- put the regular fiberglas insulation starting about 18" high to the ceiling, using the hard stuff (polystyrene? not sure exactly what it was) at the bottom 18" or so - that way even if you get water -- it won't wick up into the walls. The building inspector suggested that!
Pete |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 1570
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 3:30 pm: | |
Master Plumber,
Not sure what you mean about short cycles when you have a hot water loop on a steam boiler. If only the hot water loop is running, the boiler has to short cycle because it is supposed to shut down when the boiler water hits about 200 degrees and restarts when the water drops down to 170 or so. There is no point in making steam when you are running the hot water loop only. |
sportsnut
Citizen
Username: Sportsnut
Post Number: 460
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 3:32 pm: | |
Master Plvmber I sent you a private line. Please give me a call.
Thanks, |
Master Plvmber
Citizen
Username: Master_plvmber
Post Number: 64
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 4:18 pm: | |
Tjohn, I don't mean short-cycling in the burner-on-burner-off sense. I mean the pump would turn on and off in short cycles if the room is over-radiated having 40 feet of baseboard in it. Of course, the room could be 6000 sq. ft. for all I know. In which case your pump would never shut off. I should have been more clear the first time.
Master_Plvmber
|
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 1571
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 4:30 pm: | |
Oh, I see. Actually, the baseboard runs through my dining room, living room and all-season enclosed porch. The previous owner thought it might be a good idea to replace the downstairs steam rads with HW baseboard. It seems to work OK and may actually be more efficient since I can heat the downstairs during the day without having to heat the upstairs. In any event, the pump never short-cycles. |
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