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Message |
    
AZ
Citizen
Username: Azaltsman
Post Number: 147
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 8:26 am: |     |
Here's a shower thought - Create a grassroots non-profit organization to take on the BOE and SOMEA. Force them to provide full budget disclosure, including salaries and benefits spending, via any available state public records laws (which need to be fully explored) or law suit. If taxes can be reduced by $500 or $1000 per year for 5 years then we would have something we all could live with. Not all the reductions would come from the BOE since that would be unfair. Divide the reduction into 3 parts - county, township, BOE. I personally would be happy to have my taxes reduced $1000 per year, but I'm sure people would want more. Still, $1000 over 5 years is $5,000 before adding any compounding interest or investments. I think it's time for people to wake up. I know I certainly am awake! To fund this organization, we can solicit any attorneys in town and possibly ask for a $5 or $10/househould donation. |
Nohero
Citizen
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 1825
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 8:28 am: | |
The school budget is a public document (as is the town budget). It's discussed and voted on in public. That having been said, it's hard for people to get to these meetings, or be able to review the relevant information. The "Budget 101" meetings, mentioned over in the Education thread, might provide an opportunity for us to learn more about our school spending. |
ml1
Citizen
Username: Ml1
Post Number: 1117
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 10:12 am: | |
Rather than pontificate about school budgets when we have only "rough numbers," why not discuss the real numbers? The NJ DOE Comparative Spending Guide is available online. I took a look at it, because the conventional wisdom on MOL seems to be that our district is wasting a lot of money. In particular, a number of people seem to be stating definitively that the SOMA district is tremendously top-heavy with administrators.
I suppose there's always room for improvement and greater efficiency, and maybe I'm missing something in these numbers, but according to this report,in 2002-03 SOMA was budgeted to spend $9464 per pupil across K-12. That's pretty darn close to the NJ K-12 median of $9438 per student. Even administrative costs are near the state average for K-12 districts. SOMA spends $1136 per student according to the NJ DOE report, slightly above the median of $1,085. I guess one could argue that all schools in NJ are top-heavy with administrators, but it doesn't appear that our district in unusual in its administrative spending.
If we want our property taxes reduced, it's only going to come one way -- Trenton will have to take responsibility for funding a larger portion of schools statewide. If that doesn't happen, how much can we cut on our own without the schools suffering? |
woodstock
Citizen
Username: Woodstock
Post Number: 245
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 10:58 am: | |
I'm curious. If Trenton does take more responsibility for schools, doesn't that mean our state income tax will go up? Or our sales tax? Or some other tax? Then we're just robbing Peter to pay Paul.
I do think that reform needs to happen on the state level, but not just with more funding. Consolidation of functions, increase standardization of everything on the administrative side, etc. Anything not teaching-related could possibly be done at a much higher level of consolidation than however-many-hundreds of school districts currently do it.
But no one wants to give up local control.
Waiting For The Electrician, Or Someone Like Him |
ml1
Citizen
Username: Ml1
Post Number: 1118
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 11:13 am: | |
Certainly, state funding of schools will mean an increase in state taxes, probably income taxes. Income taxes are a much fairer means of collection than property taxes, however. |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 3226
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 12:33 pm: | |
Yesterday's News Record reported that the TC reduced the municipal tax rate and that their estimate is that the overall increase will be under 5%. Time will tell and the County hasn't been heard from yet.
State funding of education would obviously increase state taxes. While Maplewood is more affluent than most Towns in our state our average tax bill (60% for schools) is among the highest.
My guess is that this type of funding would benefit Maplewood and South Orange in that what additional taxes we pay to Trenton would be more than offset by reduced property taxes.
CAUTION - Given political realities here in the Great Garden State this is going to happen about the same time that Hell freezes over.
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sportsnut
Citizen
Username: Sportsnut
Post Number: 468
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 1:09 pm: | |
ml1 - "Income taxes are a much fairer means of collection than property taxes, however."
How so? |
ffof
Citizen
Username: Ffof
Post Number: 1304
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 1:17 pm: | |
I am just SO excited! My 3rd quarter estimate for property taxes was over $5,000! WHen's the real fun gonna begin. |
woodstock
Citizen
Username: Woodstock
Post Number: 248
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 3:38 pm: | |
Sportsnut, not to answer for ml1, but property values are relatively arbitrary (I could go into a litany on this). A single (unelected) person or small group of people determine the value of your property and that determines your tax.
Also, income taxes don't go up 2-10% every year, as property taxes seem to. One can be "house rich" and "cash poor," and property taxes will make you more "cash poor." Income taxes don't take into account static assets.
People on fixed incomes can be forced out of their homes because of increasing property taxes. It's not likely income taxes would go up each year enough to force a similar crisis for them. I know Strawberry actually thought that was a good thing (forcing seniors out of their homes), but most of us don't.
ffof - when you're 10% higher than that, then talk to me... I'd guarantee your house is worth more than mine, but my taxes are about 10% higher than yours. I can hear the violins now.
Waiting For The Electrician, Or Someone Like Him |
ffof
Citizen
Username: Ffof
Post Number: 1306
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 8:18 pm: | |
Higher than 20 grand? Wow, you got it bad! |
doublea
Citizen
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 226
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 9:04 pm: | |
Hey Woodstock! 10% higher than ffof's would be $5500. I thought you were higher than me, but mine is $5623. If anybody gives a s... that's why I get pretty wound up about the BSE and PILOTs. bobk is right - nothing is going to happen in Trenton. Our only hope was passage of some type of "Abbott Rim District" legislation, but that evaporated (probably never had a chance) with the budget crunch. We just can't keep going on with tax increases double the CPI. Excuse me for venting. |
AZ
Citizen
Username: Azaltsman
Post Number: 148
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 9:15 pm: | |
If we're so near "state average" then why are our taxes so above average? Is it the number of students?
I just fail to believe that there isn't any waste in wages and benefits. In the corporate world these are among the first things to be cut to help the bottom line. Who's helping OUR bottom line? Certainly not the BOE and the county. I don't even want to go to the municipal taxes. When we're down police officers because we can't afford them then I'd rather put my money that is going to the school system to the cops, especially since we live on the border of Newark and Irvington. |
ml1
Citizen
Username: Ml1
Post Number: 1120
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 10:13 pm: | |
AZ,
There are a couple of important reasons why our school taxes are so high, even though per pupil spending doesn't surpass the state average. Certainly the number of students factors in. But besides that, Maplewood has relatively few industrial and commercial properties, so homeowners are bearing nearly all the costs for schools. The other factor, if you link to the NJ DOE report I posted above, is that SOMA taxpayers pay a very high share of the costs of our school district, relative to other districts, who get a higher share of their funds from the state.
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AZ
Citizen
Username: Azaltsman
Post Number: 149
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 12:30 am: | |
Ml1,
I saw the link. There are quite a few other school districts where >90% of budget comes from property taxes (Park Ridge, Cresskill, etc). These two in particular would be conisdered middle-upper middle class areas. Both are good school systems (at least Park Ridge is).
Here's my problem - are we really getting the best bang for the buck? For the money we pay why can't someone recognize our town as "One of the best places to educate your kids in America" along with that Money mag article? Where's the performance of our schools? If I'm wrong about any of these things then why isn't the BOE telling the public about it's achievements? I want to see what I'm getting for my money AND I don't have any kids, which makes it even more frustrating. I have friends who live in Glen Ridge and they say, hey, we pay sky high taxes but our schools are one of the best in the state. And they border East Orange AND lower Montclair (ANYONE see any similarities?)
Everyone cries about there not being any ratables in town. I just don't see how it is possible to change that. Springfield Ave is the only possible place that I can think of where ratables can exist. But where? It's fully developed. Correct me if I'm wrong on this but we're already getting all the possible ratables we can get, right?
I'm suggesting that since most of our taxes go to the schools the budgets should be more closely scrutinized by the citizens. We should not accept the status quo and just take what is given to us. Is anyone going to that workshop on 7/23? http://www.somsd.k12.nj.us/budget101/budget101.htm
It looks to me like a PR campaign but I still might try to make it. Most of it seems like typical bureacratic government-speak stuff. I can't see the relevance of GAAP accounting standards when I get my tax bill. I'm sure they follow them but who really cares? Why don't we see workshops with the topic "Hey, give us some ideas on where to cut some costs?" I don't see anywhere in the "budget 101" presentation a detailed breakdown of the budget. And why can I not find the budget on the Internet? PLEASE don't even tell me that it's too big. |
ffof
Citizen
Username: Ffof
Post Number: 1307
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 9:57 am: | |
AZ and others- Yeah, sure, we feel like our taxes are sooo high, but there are many in Maplewood with half or even less than half of what mine or yours or doublea's or woodstock's are. What is the average tax bill? What is the median? WHat are these numbers for neighboring towns? Does anyone know? bobk?!
My guess is that average is somewhere around $9000 which is certainly high compared with US averages but not so high compared to similar communities in northern NJ. THis is just my guess. I'm too lazy to go look for these numbers myself on the web. |
Jackie Day
Citizen
Username: Zoesky1
Post Number: 40
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 2:41 pm: | |
AZ, there already is a small new nonprofit here in town that's aimed at improving our schools, although taxes are not its central focus (that's not to say they can't be, it's just that right now they're not). It's called ACE, or All Children Excelling. It's now an incorporated nonprofit with tax-free nonprofit status, but definitely needs to raise money. If you are interested, privateline me and I'll connect you with the right people. |
doublea
Citizen
Username: Doublea
Post Number: 227
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 3:45 pm: | |
In addition to the reasons for our high school taxes explained in ml1's post, SOM also has a wide-ranging student population in terms of learning skills and needs. It is almost impossible to satisfy all groups, even if our spending per pupil is at the average of our DFG. Actually, the Abbott Rim District was probably a very good idea, and there might not have been such a competition for funds. I may be wrong, but that's how I saw it. Sorry for the digression. |
woodstock
Citizen
Username: Woodstock
Post Number: 249
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, July 19, 2003 - 5:37 pm: | |
doublea - sorry for the delayed response. You topped us! We're only $5620.75 - of course, that's just an estimate from our friends at Village Hall, Who knows where it'll end up.
Waiting For The Electrician, Or Someone Like Him |
njphilf
Citizen
Username: Njphilf
Post Number: 41
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 8:38 am: | |
Also, what happens if Millburn leaves Essex County? How much more will our taxes go up?? |
woodstock
Citizen
Username: Woodstock
Post Number: 251
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, July 21, 2003 - 9:32 am: | |
FWIU, Millburn would need Essex County's permission to elave. Not likely, given the huge amount of revenue that comes in from them. Would YOU vote to increase your taxes just to let them out of theirs?
Waiting For The Electrician, Or Someone Like Him |
johnny
Citizen
Username: Johnny
Post Number: 685
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 6:24 pm: | |
Millburn will never be allowed to leave Essex County. The State Senate and Legislature needs to approve it and that would be political suicide.
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