| Author | Message | ||
     jrf Citizen Username: Jrf Post Number: 336 Registered: 5-2001  |
"Massive Social Engineering is Needed...." Hogwash. More cops making arrests and putting felons in jail for a long time is needed. Look no further than NYC for what happens when cops are agressive in going after criminals and get the needed support from the city, state and community. | ||
| zoe Citizen Username: Zoe Post Number: 263 Registered: 7-2002 |
Notehead, did that woman from Irvington offer any insight as to why Irvington has gotten so bad? Excuse me, but hasn't "Massive Social Engineering" in many ways been responsible for the situation in Irvington, Camden, Detroit, East St. Louis, South LA, Benton Harbor Michigan and others? What's needed is law and order. Police are doing the job they are hired to, but the court system is continually legislating from the bench and implimenting "Social Engineering." Sorry, but IMHO the reason Irvington is so bad is the lack of appropriate family structures. Kids seek out gangs to replace non existent family units. Parents are not being held responsible. Take a good look at situations where there are strong family ties and you will seldom see the problems that have reached crisis stage in those communities. Scholastic achievement also hinges upon the hands on involvment of a parent or guardian. That's the social engineering that is needed. | ||
| ReallyTrying Citizen Username: Reallytrying Post Number: 103 Registered: 1-2003 |
I haven't had a chance to check in here in a few days, and need to back up to JerryC's comment of 7/19 regarding the white tee shirts: I've been told by several parents of adolescent boys that the purpose of wearing the white tee shirts is to show no gang affiliation, not to disguise a gang connection. Until I read JerryC's comment, I had felt somewhat reassured when I saw boys/young men wearing white tee shirts. (This may not add to this discussion at all; I just wanted to mention it.) | ||
| Tommy Reingold Citizen Username: Noglider Post Number: 243 Registered: 1-2003  |
zoe you are mostly right, that families are the best social engineers. This would mean that the government can't do much at all to affect crime. This is a daring thing to say, because it's a harsh reality. As far as policing goes, I believe that a very present police force can help. I believe that crime decreases with the LIKELIHOOD of getting caught, not with the SEVERITY of the penalties. Longer sentences or death penalties are rarely deterrents, considering that people don't consider penalties at all during the commission of a crime. On the other hand, people behave better when they think they're being watched. Tom Reingold | ||
| Robert Little Citizen Username: Boblittle Post Number: 12 Registered: 4-2003  |
Irvington is a great example of how sprawl destroys the cities that form the first rim around metropolitan areas. The question is whether Maplewood and South Orange will be next, as people move further out to get away from the problem. Anti-sprawl initiatives are supposed to prevent the growth of far-out suburbs and encourage (re)development in close-in areas. Since Irvington's not on a train route, it would be a very long way off. But Orange and East Orange may soon be attractive places to create new developments that would otherwise be way at the end of the Morris Line. Robert Little | ||
| buzzsaw Citizen Username: Buzzsaw Post Number: 200 Registered: 5-2001 |
JRF is on to something. New York's street crime did go down during Rudy's term in office. He was rather unpopular until Sept 11th for that. | ||
| Tommy Reingold Citizen Username: Noglider Post Number: 244 Registered: 1-2003 |
Giuliani was unpopular for many reasons, but no one objected to the lower crime. Are you truly suggesting that people did? No, it was his Macchiavellian methods, not the results. However, I wouldn't credit him with the feat of reducing crime. I think the improved economy is the reason for most of the reduction. When you have no job, you have nothing to lose, and crime pays. When you have a job, you have little reason to steal and plenty of reason not to. So if we're going to ask governments to improve the crime problem, we should ask ourselves how a government can improve an economy. Can it do so at all? I think it can. Tom Reingold | ||
| doublea Citizen Username: Doublea Post Number: 231 Registered: 3-2003 |
My understanding of the New York crime reduction is that the original Giulinai/Bratton team revolutionized the way crime was attacked in an urban area. Previously, the thinking was crime was a social phenonenom and basically there wasn't anything that could be done without correcting the underlying social ills. Bratton said this is bs and you attack crime wherever it is. This may sound simplistic, but it was revolutionary at the time. The economy no doubt had a lot to do with the reduction in crime, but the method of dealing with it was significant. | ||
| jrf Citizen Username: Jrf Post Number: 339 Registered: 5-2001 |
Good police = less crime Bad police = more crime Agressive + Good police = A lot less crime Passive + Bad police = A lot more crime (see Irvington) It really is quite simple. Put our tax dollars to work in Newark and wakeup the public defenders. Get the criminals off the street and the crime will go down. | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 1805 Registered: 5-2001  |
Zero tolerance | ||
| woodstock Citizen Username: Woodstock Post Number: 258 Registered: 9-2002  |
jrf, If by "good police" you mean "enough, adequately trained, supplied, and respected", then I completely agree. Good and Bad and not decriptive enough, and very simplistic. And I'd think you'd like the PDs to be sleeping. More criminals would have inadequate defenders, and would end up in jail. Or do you mean "wake up the district attorneys?" Waiting For The Electrician, Or Someone Like Him | ||
| Anita Smith Citizen Username: Zooey Post Number: 4 Registered: 6-2003 |
For many years the Township of Irvington suffered from understaffing in the police department. Lack of police response and regular patrols allowed the drug gangs to gain a firm entrenchment in the town. Currently, the New Jersey State Police are temporarily supplementing the ranks of the Irvington PD to help take back the streets. The United States Attorney, Christopher Christie, made a substantial dent in the networks when he went after major drug dealers using Federal statutes. But as with every other criminal trade for profit, others are always waiting in the wings to pick up the slack. Unemployment is high, so the need for diligence now is even more dire. The observation regarding the white t-shirts is accurate and indicative of just how bad the gang situation has become. The white t-shirts are a life-saving sign of neutrality. Wearing the wrong colored shirt could actually get you jumped or, worse, killed. Look around you: The white t-shirts are everywhere. This sad state of affairs did not occur overnight. Hopefully, the situation will improve and the rising tide will lift all boats. [Yes, and pigs will finally fly.] Until then, no one is one hundred percent safe. The proliferation of automatic weapons by gangs in Essex County -- the streets are literally saturated with guns -- precludes the safety of everyone in our community. People are afraid of them as they should be. They have killed and they will kill. Not just in Irvington, but everywhere. However, the reality is that more police equals bigger budgets equals higher taxes. And the already strapped taxpayer is nearly tapped out. | ||
| lumpyhead Citizen Username: Lumpyhead Post Number: 329 Registered: 3-2002 |
It may get better when girls in 8th grade don't have children that are fatherless. Otherwise it will perpetuate. People scream about "choice" and the right to abortion which I agree with but the women getting abortions don't seem to be from Irvington. The choice there is to have the child regardless of your age or economic situation. Is there a ghetto culture that says this is okay? How can we change it? | ||
| #9Dream Citizen Username: 9dream Post Number: 483 Registered: 12-2002  |
jrf - The formula that you omitted was Aggressive + bad police. That leads to mistrust of the police, which leads to fear of the police, which leads to hatred of the police. Such has been the problem in LA for years, and to a lesser extent New York City as well. | ||
| notehead Citizen Username: Notehead Post Number: 622 Registered: 5-2001  |
Zoe, the woman I spoke with was appalled by the neglected condition of both the homes and the commercial properties, and of course the terrible amount of crime. I had to agree with her when she said that residents who had any pride or self-respect would not let their own homes and businesses deteriorate like that. But who stays behind when a town undergoes such a degradation? Probably not the best and brightest. A leading Haitian "compas" musician who is a friend of mine once gave me his opinion about why his homeland has been in such a quagmire: after the Duvalier fiasco, virtually the entire top tier of Haitian society - all the leading businessmen, intellectuals, and artists - left. The society left behind was thus seriously disadvantaged (in addition to being broke). I wonder if Irvington is in a similar situation. Discipline (law enforcement) is clearly insufficient, but leadership is also lacking. While addressing the negative, Irvington would also be well served by focusing on the positive. Find their success stories and proper role models. Ask them to speak to kids in schools, put their faces in the paper, and make their efforts and achievements even more widely known than those of the gang leaders and drug dealers. | ||
| Tommy Reingold Citizen Username: Noglider Post Number: 246 Registered: 1-2003 |
I know this is off the wall, but it sounds like Irvington would do well to be absorbed by a neighboring municipality, even if it were Newark. Tom Reingold | ||
| Robert Little Citizen Username: Boblittle Post Number: 14 Registered: 4-2003 |
There is an irony here. Irvington was originally a suburb of Newark, where people moved to get away from the metropolis and its schools. Now I doubt Newark would want Irvington, whose tax base wouldn't make up for the trouble Newark would absorb. Robert Little | ||
| Pierce Butler Citizen Username: Pierce_butler Post Number: 17 Registered: 6-2003 |
zoe, please name one way in which "the court system is continually legislating from the bench and implimenting [sic] `Social Engineering.'" | ||
| Robert Little Citizen Username: Boblittle Post Number: 15 Registered: 4-2003 |
School busing. Robert Little | ||
| lumpyhead Citizen Username: Lumpyhead Post Number: 332 Registered: 3-2002 |
That would be the 31 bus. |
