| Author | Message | ||
     mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 1851 Registered: 5-2001  |
A friend of mine is a social worker in Newark, a completely thankless and very low paying job. One of his cases, a welfare recipient with six kids and never worked a day in her life, called him in a rage because her dishwasher was broken and the repairman wouldn't show up soon enough. Hmmmmmm. God bless America. | ||
| ian Citizen Username: Ian Post Number: 137 Registered: 12-2001 |
Ah, Republicans love nothing, and I DO mean nothing, more than an anecdote about how lazy, irresponsible and freeloading poor people are. If it's a poor BLACK woman who has lots of kids (preferably with different men!) and collects welfare, even better! I can't imagine what all those Conservatives would do without the breedin-like-a-bunny, welfare-scamming, dishwasher-complainin' poor folk to make them feel self-righteously indignant about their good old Republican Work Ethic and their $60,000 gas-dguzzling SUV. After all, if those po' folk would just buckle down and get a damn job and keep their legs together, then they could afford an Escalade too! | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 1853 Registered: 5-2001 |
Jennifer, aka buffalo joe, aka Ian (the poor guy), I am reporting a flaw in our system. Neither my friend or myself are republicans, and even if we were, so what? Are we supposed to ignore this and sweep this kind of situation under the rug? And, who are you to judge what color she is or who she had her kids with? I was highlighting the comparative level of luxury many of our poor may experience here in the US, to be compared with much worse situations in other parts of the world. Wait, why am I bothering to respond? It's her again! Lol! | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 1854 Registered: 5-2001 |
Just spoke with a fellow MOLer, who said: Question: Why do people who don't want to work always stick up for each other? Answer: Because they have nothing better to do! Now, I didn't think that was very nice, was it? | ||
| newjerz Citizen Username: Newjerz Post Number: 70 Registered: 5-2003  |
I would describe myself as conservative and far from loving that anecdote, I find it very depressing. No one likes to see examples of people who have ruined their lives. It's really pretty sad. Furthermore, it is sad that our community includes people like this who will add nothing and I DO mean nothing to society either economically or culturally. You might scoff at this, but if that woman did get a job and kept her legs closed she probably would be in a much better spot in life than she is right now. I think Republicans want to see people make an effort to improve their own lives. It is unreasonable to expect most people from disadvantaged backgrounds to be able succeed completely on their own and there is a role for government to play in supporting and helping those people who have shown the initiative to make their lives better. This woman has shown a total lack of effort and that is pathetic and that is why conservatives become resentful when government funds that could be spent on so many worthwhile programs are spent supporting this type of individual. If that woman were asked, "What have you done to make your own life better?" I wonder what her answer would be. By the way, what was she doing with a dishwasher in the first place? If she is on welfare doesn't she have the time to do the dishes by hand? I guess we're all entitled to dishwashers though. | ||
| Pierce Butler Citizen Username: Pierce_butler Post Number: 36 Registered: 6-2003 |
ian, you are correct that one must be wary about such anecdotal evidence. Anecdotes might be indicators of general trends, but they also might be isolated instances blown up in people's minds, as a form of cognitive dissonance, simply because it is the extreme cases one is likely to hear about. That is, we do not hear about the large percentage of cases where women on welfare with six kids don't complain about the dishwasher repairman, or -- would you believe -- where the person on welfare has no kids or one kid. On the other hand, from my experience, it is difficult to deny that a welfare culture tends to generate in some people a misguided sense of entitlement. I have been assigned by courts to represent criminal defendants, and some of them (not most, but some) simply assume they are entitled to have me or some other lawyer represent them with respect to their other legal problems, such as when they are sued by their alleged victims, in addition to their criminal trials and appeals and some family court matters (which is all the Constitution requires). I am not ridiculing them for their ignorance; I am simply pointing out how a culture of entitlement may lead some people to assume that everything will be given to them by the government. Whether this misguided sense of entitlement is any match for the misguided sense of entitlement I have seen demonstrated by many children of the middle class and upper-middle class is another question entirely. | ||
| Iaowks Reingold Citizen Username: Noglider Post Number: 347 Registered: 1-2003  |
notehead wrote: "Part of what makes our nation great is our freedom to be rude, selfish, shortsighted, and hypocritical if we feel like it." I think you're onto something there, and the point I take from this is that I value the freedom, but it's most valuable when the freedom exists and we don't exercise it. Demanding courtesy by law is less enlightened than choosing to be courteous, even though the law allows rudeness. Actually, I use the terms rude and courteous, but they are examples of the whole array of sins, and the principle applies everywhere. And isn't that the principle of sin and free will in theology? Whether you are religious or not, the point is valuable: by choosing to be "good" (whatever that means) it makes you a better person than if you were "good" without choice. Tom Reingold | ||
| 1-2many Citizen Username: Wbg69 Post Number: 198 Registered: 6-2002 |
it's not fair or accurate to generalize at all, or especially to generalize this one sad and somewhat infuriating story into "this is what poor (or po') people are like". nor is it fair to then jump to the very next even more general conclusion of, "so they get what they deserve." this is a great time and place to say, let's support publicly available health care, including birth control and abortions. it's cheaper than paying to raise those kids, and FAR cheaper in many ways than generations of disenfranchised. we are all flawed and make mistakes, errors in judgment. unfortunately, I think poor people are have less resources to deflect consequences of their poor judgments. | ||
| Iaowks Reingold Citizen Username: Noglider Post Number: 349 Registered: 1-2003 |
1-2many, your message reflects a lot of compassion, reason, and breadth of understanding. That won't do here. Please try to be more shallow and boil down the situation into easier to understand bite size principles. Tom Reingold | ||
| 1-2many Citizen Username: Wbg69 Post Number: 199 Registered: 6-2002 |
 thanks, Iaowks - I think I may have gotten a little more shallow - or at least a little more pissed - while at lunch. responding to "new jerz"'s opinion that "if that woman did get a job and kept her legs closed she probably would be in a much better spot in life than she is right now" - I disagree. the minimum wage jobs that unskilled workers would be hired for won't sustain a minimum level of life (now isn't THAT weird - minimum wage does NOT equal the minimum amount of money needed to live). further, they don't provide health insurance. AND these employers often actively prohibit their employees from organizing to force any sort of minimum standards on their own. if you want to see people getting motivated to work, one part of the solution is to demand a more reasonable minimum wage, and to require minimum wage employers to provide their employees with health benefit. then this woman could have bought some birth control pills for something like $10, instead of the $100+ they cost without a health care plan. and new jerz - you've never had unprotected sex? I bet every poster on this board has. and are you telling me you would QUIT having sex if birth control pills were too expensive? when oh WHEN are we going to STOP being so puritanical and judgmental about people who HAVE SEX. to state the obvious: WE ALL DO IT. And, many people I know have had unplanned pregnancies - but theirs are called "delightful". can we please get off the high horse about this. IT HAPPENS. now let's figure out how best to deal with that, and I don't mean judging the offenders or punishing these children. I suggest a minimum wage that tracks the lowest pay level for any federal job, including regional adjustments made for more costly areas of the country. anyone know what a GS-1 scale is? I bet it ain't $5.25/hour. | ||
| mem Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 1855 Registered: 5-2001 |
1-2, Right on the nose. Anyway, I read in Nat Geo this month about the plight of the Bantu tribes, who never even had the opportunity to even know what a dishwasher is. | ||
| Dave Ross Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 4986 Registered: 5-2001  |
Some Bantu have dishwashers. | ||
| lumpyhead Citizen Username: Lumpyhead Post Number: 362 Registered: 3-2002 |
Six kids? No excuse. One, two, three, four but sorry, NOT SIX. | ||
| Nohero Citizen Username: Nohero Post Number: 1917 Registered: 5-2001  |
Jonathan Swift, "A Modest Proposal": Continued ... | ||
| ffof Citizen Username: Ffof Post Number: 1346 Registered: 5-2001  |
FOr the welfare mom with six kids, I say abortion is legal and accessible and enormously less expensive than raising a child. Why was this not an option for her. | ||
| parkbench87 Citizen Username: Parkbench87 Post Number: 288 Registered: 7-2001 |
1-2 Many, While I agree with some of your sentiments I think you are pushing personal responsibility onto companies, government or society. You said "responding to "new jerz"'s opinion that "if that woman did get a job and kept her legs closed she probably would be in a much better spot in life than she is right now" - I disagree You disagree? She has 6 kids and is on Public Assitance and you think that is better then if she had gotten a job and not had all of those kids? If she hadn't had all those kids she might have the time and energy to work her way up to a decent job. It's such a simple concept. Your not going to force companies like McDonalds to pay a wage that someone can support a family on or offer full Health Benefits. The less skilled the job the lower wage and benefits you can expect Also it's not about being judgemental about having unprotected sex. You made the statement "It Happens" . Sounds like something you would hear on Springer or Ricki Lake, It Just Happened. It just doesn't happen. People make a choice and the choice carries responsibilities. | ||
| algebra2 Citizen Username: Algebra2 Post Number: 1135 Registered: 5-2001  |
Parkbench -- well said! | ||
| woodstock Citizen Username: Woodstock Post Number: 278 Registered: 9-2002  |
A few years ago, there was a proposal whereby "welfare" benefits would get phased out slowly as you earned more money. So there would not be incentive for someone on public assistance to avoid getting a job. They wouldn't have to choose between not working (and making, say $300/week) and working a minimum wage job (and making $250/week). They could work, and make about $400/week. I lost track of this idea long ago. It always made sense to me... Waiting For The Electrician, Or Someone Like Him | ||
| nova87 Citizen Username: Nova87 Post Number: 239 Registered: 6-2001 |
Parkbench - I agree. People know the consequences of having sex, unprotected sex. The audacity of people who know that one of the consequences is pregnancy and still continue to do so under the assumption that the government will take care of them is what gets conservatives like me all up in arms. Ian - no self respecting Republican I know would be caught driving an Escalade.  | ||
| 1-2many Citizen Username: Wbg69 Post Number: 200 Registered: 6-2002 |
people have used this extreme example to justify their generalizations unfairly, and without foundation. this woman clearly did not make great choices. we are not talking about this particular woman, though, we are talking about the generalizations people make, to make themselves feel A-OK about the poor. as a matter of principle, we SHOULD force companies that employ unskilled workers to pay a wage that they can at least support themselves on. AND we should require health care to be provided. we will always need unskilled workers; it is nonsensical to need them but not be willing to compensate someone for filling that need. a reasonable salary should be paid; working should keep you out of poverty, not in it. the federal minimum wage is a joke. we all have personal responsibility. large companies that exploit their workers should bear even more responsibility. and government arguably has the most responsibility. the concept that anyone not supported by mommy & daddy can even afford to take a minimum wage job and then work their way up (to what??) is unrealistic. $5.15/hour X 40 hrs/week = $206 gr, approx $175 net. this yields $700/month. there will be a few people that make it through a system designed for churn. but by and large, unskilled workers are purposefully treated as disposable, purposefully not given any real training - all in exchange for a laughable income. where's the motivation? |
