| Author |
Message |
    
lumpyhead
Citizen
Username: Lumpyhead
Post Number: 376
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 9:13 pm: |     |
Yeah, of course all the fat is in the county, none in our school districts. No waste there, anywhere. You can't spend enough when it comes to our children. There is such of balance of competent business types and educators on the BOE. It's not all idealistic, gripless liberal types. |
Ed May
Citizen
Username: Edmay
Post Number: 1643
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 10:04 pm: | |
tjohn you have a good question - TQM does apply to municipal government. It is incumbent upon me to explain how to the electorate. It is an approach for improving the quality of a repeatable process. I do propose that we analyze the portion of the municipal budget that can be optimized through TQM. TQM has been used successfully in places like Fort Wayne, Indiana. Detail will require further posting. I teach an entire course in TQM at Stevens Tech in Hoboken. It will take a while to get a critical mass of Maplewoodians to understand what it is all about.
ajc Thanks for your support
dave ross I disagree with your posts
new jerz I agree that the TC can do more about the school budget
Cathy I agree that the property tax/school budget formula is a problem but I still think we can lower the cost of the schools while doing a better job educating our children.
Bob I agree with getting the BOSE involved in the school budget process early and on limiting the growth of county government. In fact I believe that county government should be reduced considerably.
zoe I agree with you
johnny I agree with you
lumphead I am not sure what you are saying - I say there is waste in Essex County Government - there is waste in the school system - it is not how much you spend on education that counts but how well you spend it - as for the BOE, there is room for improvement there, just as there is room for improvement on the TC.
Ed May |
Nohero
Citizen
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 1980
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 10:25 pm: | |
If you don't mind my saying so ...
Details of the school budget (i.e., not what you spend but how well you spend it) are set by the Board of Education. The Board of Education is an elected position. We all get our chance to vote in those elections. For those of you who didn't focus on that at the time, the Township Committee election is not a "make up" game.
The Board of School Estimate has a very limited, up-or-down vote. Since there are no incumbents running for Township Committee, it doesn't really make sense to make the school budget a campaign issue.
There are a lot of issues out there, which the Township Committee is directly responsible for. If this election focused on those, that would be a good, and constructive, debate. |
sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 10174
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 10:34 pm: | |
Since when is the Township Committee focused only on things that they are directly responsible for?
The last time I checked, they were focusing on things like anti-War resolutions.
What is up next? A discussion of the validity of the USA Patriot Act?
Nah, that'll never come up.
---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <---- |
Nohero
Citizen
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 1981
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 10:44 pm: | |
S. - While I know you love to spend your time looking for posts by me, in order to come up with a way to contradict me (usually about foreign policy):
This time I was being serious, and revisiting your old obsessions really isn't the point now, is it? But thanks for the suggestion about the P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act, that may be something to address on the local level.
And, in any event, thanks for playing.
So, does this mean that nobody else cares about the sewer fee thing? |
sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 10175
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 10:50 pm: | |
May I suggest that you read the letter to the News Record two weeks ago which called on the governing bodies of Maplewood and South Orange to move forward a resolution calling into question the constitutionality of the USA Patriot Act.
And no, I don't care about the $30 sewer user "thing".
---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <---- |
Nohero
Citizen
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 1983
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 11:05 pm: | |
Um, yeah, that's why I mentioned the unfortunately-acronymed "Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism" Act (i.e., "U.S.A. P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act). Clever, but probably of little use in actually defending the country. However, since it requires local government (including librarians, for cryin' out loud) to follow its ineffective mandates, then it is a legitimate subject for local discussion.
But, I digress.
I'm sorry you don't care about whether local government acts within its prescribed authority under New Jersey law. Suit yourself. |
sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 10176
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 11:14 pm: | |
You might want to take it up with the Township's attorney if you think they exceeded their authority.
Let us know how it turns out.
---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <---- |
Nohero
Citizen
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 1984
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 11:25 pm: | |
Well, that was disappointing. I found nothing humorous about your last post. And neither I, nor the Township Attorney, are the last word on that subject, if somebody decides to make a class action out of it.
But, back to the discussion at hand. I meant what I said, about how the election should focus on Township Government, and not on school issues which are not the primary focus of Township government. |
Dave Ross
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 5026
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 11:38 pm: | |
Wait a second. It's a letter in the News-Record at this moment, right? Anyway, I don't think librarians should carry guns, but that may be part of the PATRIOT ACT.
we really can't tell because one of the parts of the PATRIOT Act is that the public is not to know the extent of its powers. Real patriotic, eh? Onward, comrades. |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 1757
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 11:55 pm: | |
"the election should focus on Township Government, and not on school issues which are not the primary focus of Township government."
I think I can support that... |
REBORN STRAW
Citizen
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 949
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 5:48 am: | |
Jerry and Vic need to stick together as their term comes to a close. Show a little common courtesy to each other for crying out loud. Maplewood really isn't that important, ya know. |
Robert Little
Citizen
Username: Boblittle
Post Number: 45
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 11:21 am: | |
The township committee can affect the school budget through its role on the board of school estimate. The BOSE has the power to veto the district budget, which would be unfortunate. In order to prevent a veto, the district should bring BOSE members into the budget-making process early. There seems to be some effort to do this through the "Budget 101" presentations the district finance committee is giving to the BOSE members. |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 1655
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 11:59 am: | |
Of course, the BOE could do this if voter turnout in BOE elections was better. Why should the T.C. be expected to perform a function that the BOE should perform when people don't even bother to turn out for BOE elections.
The T.C. has a lot of things to do without compensating for the fact that the electorate (that would be all of us) can't be bothered to vote in School Board elections. |
Robert Little
Citizen
Username: Boblittle
Post Number: 46
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 12:16 pm: | |
tjohn points out two good reasons for the state to consolidate elections into no more than one primary and one general election per year: (1) increased turn out for school board elections, and (2) increased breadth of voters for district elections rather than only school parents voting. |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 3311
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 1:22 pm: | |
To my way of thinking the BOSE should function as a budget watch dog as respects the BOE. In most NJ school districts the voters get to accept or reject the budget, a function the BOSE performs here because of the unique two town district we have.
My guess is that if we voted on the budget, the interest in BOE elections would increase and the voter turnout would be much higher. |
anon
Citizen
Username: Anon
Post Number: 764
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 8:48 pm: | |
sbenois: To reply to your reply to my post of August 17th, I did not watch the TC on TV. I read the article in the NR. How stupid of me to rely on that for information!
Now to be totally cynical. The Fall TC election campaign will not be about issues.The Republican candidates may try to raise issues, but the Dems thinking they have a lock will just mouth slogans, smile nicely and try not to offend anyone. |
sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 10177
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 8:52 pm: | |
Bingo.
---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <---- |
aquaman
Citizen
Username: Aquaman
Post Number: 123
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 9:19 pm: | |
Anon - how do you feel about non-partisan elections on a local level? |
Wordsmith
Citizen
Username: Wordsmith
Post Number: 2
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 9:33 pm: | |
Dear Ms. Wordsmith,
In a recent post, anon wrote something that seems to be grammatically incorrect. However, I’m not certain, so I am asking for your advice.
He wrote, “The Republican candidates may try to raise issues, but the Dems thinking they have a lock will just mouth slogans, smile nicely and try not to offend anyone.”
My question is, should there be a comma between “Dems” and “thinking”?
Yours truly,
- Ken Fused
-----------------------------------------------------------
Dear Mr. Fused,
You raise a very good question, and the correct answer could go either way, depending on what Mr. Anon (Ms.?) intended to say. As written, it implies that certain Dems, but not all of them, believe they have a lock.
On the other hand, if he intended to imply that all Dems believe this, he should have written,
“…the Dems, thinking they have a lock, will just mouth slogans…”
It’s important to note that I’m not a politician, just a glorified editor. What do you think, Mr. Fused? Will all the Dems just mouth slogans, or just a few? Maybe the slogan-mouthing Dems are the ones who were already beaten in the primary last spring. And who says the Republicans won’t mouth slogans, too? Maybe Mr. Anon knows. Is he a Republican?
Sincerely,
- Ms. Wordsmith
|
mtierney
Citizen
Username: Mtierney
Post Number: 388
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 9:46 pm: | |
Let's go to the tape! Anyone know when the TC spectacle will be rerun? |
Reflective
Citizen
Username: Reflective
Post Number: 87
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 10:08 pm: | |
Bobk
You are correct about the BOSE's role in representing us residents and therefore have a direct role in insuring that the school budget is prudent and affordable.
Nohero, here I depart from you in that the TC(3 members of our TC serve on it) shouldn't have to spend their time on the school budget.
Sorry it goes with their elected duties due to our special, combined, unique school district. They represent the Maplewood taxpayer as proxies for voting/approving/ or dissapproving each annual school budget.
As the school tax is what.. 60% of our property tax dollar, their attention to school expenses must be one of their most vital responsibilities.
One of the republican candidates, Fred or Ed, wrote above that he is very concerned about the county budget, Gee, that is about a constant 23% of our property tax dollar. Time is better spent on stabilizing the 60%! |
Joel S. Ziegler
Citizen
Username: Joelziegler
Post Number: 21
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 11:17 pm: | |
Fred is not one of the Republican candidates.
May I remind you that Ed is a Republican Candidate as am I.
We are the ones trying to talk issues.
Joel S. Ziegler, Esq. |
johnny
Citizen
Username: Johnny
Post Number: 708
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 11:28 am: | |
Tjohn:
The BOSE is there to represent the taxpayers of Maplewood and South Orange. It is their DUTY to oversee the school budget and do what is right for the people they represent. |
mem
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 1890
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 11:37 am: | |
Is there anyone on the current BOE who has previous experience managing corporate or public sector large scale budgets? |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 1668
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 11:42 am: | |
I know what the BOSE is supposed to do. However, they are not involved in the construction of the budget and the vision and goals that lead to budgetary decisions. This is the job of the BOE. The BOSE has only approval/disapproval authority. Approval/disapproval is a sledgehammer.
If the BOE is NOT crafting reasonable budgets from the beginning and the BOSE is forced to disapprove budgets, our town government will become dysfunctional and educational spending will become court-mandated.
So, irregardless of the responsibility of the BOSE, if we can't be bothered to turn out for BOE elections, then we deserve everything we don't like about the BOE. |
Robert Little
Citizen
Username: Boblittle
Post Number: 47
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 11:58 am: | |
tjohn's got it right but I'd put it this way:
(1) BOSE disapproval is a sledgehammer.
(2) Neither the BOE nor the voters would want to be whacked with a sledgehammer.
(3) Therefore, the BOE should involve the BOSE in the budget process, including the individual line items and choices that make up the budget.
To their credit, the BOE is doing this through the Budget 101 sessions.
One quibble: If BOSE disapproves the budget, it does not go to the courts but instead to the state commissioner of education (18A:22-26, -38). This would still be a whack with a sledgehammer. |
jgberkeley
Supporter
Username: Jgberkeley
Post Number: 3089
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 1:07 pm: | |
No, one more quibble; not a whack. The approval is automatic to last years base, plus a % increase.
So the game is, and always has been; push the base up as far as you can and make sure the increase is always higher than the State %increase levels. |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 1786
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 2:32 pm: | |
What about the CBAC? Don't they have a say in all this, I think they do...
I personally like the direction Bob Little is headed.
Why can't we involve the BOE, the BOSE, and the CBAC in the budget process, including the individual line items and choices that make up the budget?
Only, let them all get together for a joint meeting for each new budget year first. This way they will all have some idea where the others are coming from and why...
___________________________________________________________________
Waiting for an all-day Jitney, or a better way we all can get around our community... |
Reflective
Citizen
Username: Reflective
Post Number: 89
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 9:49 pm: | |
The Maplewood Civic Association has a Citizens Budget Advisory Committe which annually is formed to review the Maplewood municipal budget and an additional committee -the School CBAC Committee.
Until last year it has been active in reviewing the school budget and making recommendations to the Maplewood Board of School Estimate.
Culminating with the school budget for the 2002-2003 schoo year, the School district's assistance became nonexistant and the School CBAC wasn't able to function.
Traditionally, the Mpwd School CBAC invites its SO counterparts to participate if there are any.
The results are presented formally to the Maplewood Board of School Estimate members and is open to all. Its recommendations don't micromanage but are intended to assist the BOSE in understanding the dynamics of a complex budget structure. It also helps alleviate the onerous time consuming task each BOSE member faces in preparing for the BOE's budget presentations.
From 1996 through two years ago, the School CBAC was well led by Jim Nathenson and Tucker Lamkin and many volunteers who put in dozens of hours each year reviewing many different psrts and areas of the school budget. They identified a multitude of important budget data for consideration, discussion and comparison.
Two examples of many are: Transportation expenses. Impossible to determine from the budget as they are mixed in with several programs, but the finding helped put this line item into perspective. Another example found that our classes were shorter then comparable districts. And therefore, more classes. This led to discussion of whether slightly longer classes would provide more quality content, and whether slightly fewer classes, would lead to less teachers and less budget strain.
The School CBAC was the first to look at the budget in terms of inflation and made guideline recommendations as to growth.
A number of their recommendations have been put into practice, not at that time, but a year or two later. One example is their recommendation that the BOE break up into committees to perform its duties rather a committee of 9 on every topic. They did and the process became more efficient.
Fringe has plenty of school budget info and CBAC results on his website (Shebenois' favorite) at hometown.aol.com/njfabian. The last two School CBAC reports are on this website in their entirety.
|
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 1795
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 8:11 am: | |
... so thank you for your detailed report Reflective! Now do you have any recommendations?
How about telling us if you think it would help to involve the BOE, the BOSE, and the CBAC in the beginning of the budget process? This of course would include the individual line item discussions that make up the budget....
___________________________________________________________________
Waiting for an all-day Jitney, or a better way we all can get around our community...
|
johnny
Citizen
Username: Johnny
Post Number: 709
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 10:52 am: | |
Tjohn:
So you are saying that the BOSE shouldn't be bothered to do their job because voter turnout is low for the BOE elections? We should just accept crappy budgeting because not enough people voted?
Voter turnout was low for the Town Committee primaries. Do you think we should just accept poor leadership from Pettis/Leventhal or demand high standards? |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 1673
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 11:18 am: | |
Not exactly. I am saying that in order for the process to work well, people need to take the trouble to understand the BOE candidates and vote for the ones they like. Otherwise, the BOE will be dominated by special interests that may not care about costs.
And AJC is quite correct in saying that the BOE and BOSE need to be in constant discussion during the budgeting process.
More generally, if you chose to not vote, then yes, you have no right to complain. |
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