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Message |
    
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 1685
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 8:48 am: |     |
Ah, the difficulties of trying to navigate the middle ground. I suppose that if I am heinously racist, words must fail you when it comes to those who criticize me as dangerously liberal.
Anyway, I was looking for a fact-based speculation as to why the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem supported Adolf Hitler.
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hello
Citizen
Username: Hello
Post Number: 79
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 9:51 am: | |
oh, b.s.- you weren't "looking for" anything. you were on the "soapbox". you know the answer. the muslim leader of jerusalem was looking to align himself with any enemy of israel, as israel was exerting claim to jerusalem. the mufti's interests against israel were all-encompassing- material, spiritual, political, ... it's a purely rhetorical question you pose. if you want to find folks who hated jewish people just for whom they are- sickly "clean" hate- maybe you should go away from muslims and try the white republican party in the u.s. in the 1930s? the "america first"-ers. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 33
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 9:58 am: | |
Hello......I'm hearing something.....I think it's anger. You're hurting inside. Pretend you're the color blue for a while and see if that helps.
If persuasion is your goal, your tactics aren't working. |
nova87
Citizen
Username: Nova87
Post Number: 266
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 10:03 am: | |
hello - I know of no other blatant racist on these boards besides you. Your hatred of white people is unabashed.
Why? |
J. Crohn
Citizen
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 340
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 2:51 pm: | |
"the muslim leader of jerusalem was looking to align himself with any enemy of israel, as israel was exerting claim to jerusalem."
You have no idea what you're talking about. This was 1939. Israel would not come into existence for another nine years.
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hello
Citizen
Username: Hello
Post Number: 82
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 2:58 pm: | |
excuse me, but i'm perfectly aware of the history, jcrohn. perhaps i should have said "the emerging israel ..." so you'll know, apart from being educated, my stepfamily are lubavitcher. |
OK, it's Straw Man
Citizen
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 979
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 3:10 pm: | |
So I guess we should now believe that Hello is actually a self hating Jew. You need help my friend, you're not well. |
J. Crohn
Citizen
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 341
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 3:16 pm: | |
Tjohn: "Why on earth did the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem support Adolf Hitler?"
Because Arab absentee landlords had already sold a great deal of contiguous land to Jews in the preceding decade and the mufti feared this presaged the establishment of a Jewish state (which it did); because the British mandate and Zionists had completely transformed the territory since around 1920, so that the old feudal and cultural relationships no longer prevailed and this disturbed those whose power was consequently diminished; because wholesale cultural & economic changes wrought by the Zionists and Brits had produced displaced fellaheen (tenant farmers) whose choices were to work for the increasingly numerous Jews or else accept British relocation back into the hills from which they had descended when the economic cliate of the coast became more attractive than farming; because one of the ways Arabs have traditionally mobilized one another politically has been via Islam; and because Muslims did not want Jews (this minor, pathetic people once merely tolerated as dhimmis when the caliphate prevailed) to dominate.
So, the Arab solution was not agreeing to partition, or organizing their incredibly fractious political components, or obtaining a crash course in sophisticated dealings with the British, but trying to ally with Hitler to wipe out the Jews.
Notably, Hitler wasn't interested, apparently having failed to distinguish much among semites.
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hello
Citizen
Username: Hello
Post Number: 83
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 3:19 pm: | |
"wipe out" is deliberately provocative- show me one shred of evidence the arabs were aware of the holocaust. |
J. Crohn
Citizen
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 342
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 4:46 pm: | |
Correction: I should have said this was the Islamic solution.
The Arab solution in more general terms was simply refusal at all levels, which did them no good at all. This refusal--refusal to compromise, refusal to accept Israel's existence, refusal to relinquish dreams of Arab or Islamic dominance, refusal to accept the crisis of the Holocaust as a morally reasonable motivation for the Zionist enterprise, refusal to give up terror (the deliberate targeting of civilians) as a modus operandus--this habit of refusal remains the salient intractable quality of all extremist Arabs and Islamists. And this is what is chiefly responsible for the predicament in which the Palestinians now find themselves. |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 1689
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 4:52 pm: | |
Why should the Arabs accept the Holocaust as a morally reasonable motivation for the Zionist enterprise? The Arabs bear no responsibility for 2,000 years of Christian anti-Semitism. Granted this is a somewhat academic discussion since the more current reality is that the peoples of Palestine need to learn to live together more or less along the lines of the current road map or else they will end up with nothing. Nevertheless, it is an valid question. |
Ukealalio
Citizen
Username: Ukealalio
Post Number: 24
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 6:01 pm: | |
I don't like getting in the middle of this debate because the subject is personally very painful for me (my niece was until recently a student in Jerusalem who had two friends murdered at the hands of Palestinian terrorists. One was a young girl who was very involved in the pro-Palestinian, Peace Now movement). The comment by Hello that his step-family are Lubavitcher, smacks of, "some of my best friends are_ _" . There are groups of Hassidics who are extremely anti-Israel because they feel the Messiah didn't lead the Jewish people to it. Granted, the Lubavitcher's are not part of this group but having a Hassidic friend or relative does not give you a "Get out of jail free card" when you spew mis-information.
I am not against the Hassidic movement per se but I am generally wary of ultra-orthodoxy in any religion. A lot of Israeli's have huge resentments towards the Hassids because they get every advantage from living in Israel without having to go into the army like the rest of the population (both male and female). So sorry Hello, your statement that your step family is Lubavitcher doesn't mean Jack. |
J. Crohn
Citizen
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 343
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 6:01 pm: | |
"excuse me, but i'm perfectly aware of the history, jcrohn. perhaps i should have said "the emerging israel ...so you'll know, apart from being educated, my stepfamily are lubavitcher."
Uh huh. Well maybe your stepfamily is indeed educated, but nothing you have said yet suggests you are.
For all I know you're an assimilated hog farmer who eats pork rinds on Yom Kippur just to spite your folks. Or maybe you and your clan are Naturei Karta.
Regardless, your merely being Jewish (or raised by Jews--I suppose you have not actually asserted that you are Jewish) inclines me to no special assumptions about what you know. |
J. Crohn
Citizen
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 344
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 6:18 pm: | |
"Why should the Arabs accept the Holocaust as a morally reasonable motivation for the Zionist enterprise?"
Because it was, as anyone but a moral cretin should recognize.
Similarly, the displacement of Palestinian Arabs during the 1948 war of Israel's independence led to the formation of a uniquely Palestinian (as opposed to merely Arab) people whose need for a state and self-determination is as morally compelling as the Jews'--but not more so.
Notably, most Jews have long recognized and accepted this, however grudgingly. |
hello
Citizen
Username: Hello
Post Number: 84
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 6:37 pm: | |
"Notably, most Jews have long recognized and accepted this, however grudgingly."
I once believed this, until the last elections in Israel. Jews living in Israel had a clear choice: war for eviction, or peace, and chose war. If you take out the Arab votes, the Likud coalition won by more than 2-1, I believe.
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J. Crohn
Citizen
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 345
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 7:13 pm: | |
Hello: ""wipe out" is deliberately provocative- show me one shred of evidence the arabs were aware of the holocaust."
No doubt you will resort to hair-splitting, so let me just say in advance that the Arabs' precise state of knowledge concerning the Holocaust (much of which was still to come) is irrelevant to what I've told you.
Here is an excerpt from the Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husayni's, proposal to Hitler (he offered it twice, once in 1940--not 1939, as I said previously--and again in 1941):
"Germany and Italy recognize the right of the Arab countries to solve the question of the Jewish elements which exist in Palestine and in the other Arab countries, as required by the national and ethnic (volkisch) interests of the Arabs, and as the Jewish question was solved in Germany and Italy." (Emphasis added.)
The foregoing is translated in several primary sources and reproduced in Bernard Lewis's "The Jews of Islam" (1984). Lewis, the preeminent scholar of Islam and mideast history, writes:
"[T]here can be no doubt about the extent of Nazi influence, as expressed in the mufti's draft proposal, in the Arab nationalist camp at that time. Between 1941 and 1948 there were numerous outbreaks of anti-Jewish violence in Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Southern Arabia, and North Africa, in which hundreds of Jews were killed or injured, while far greater numbers found their work places sacked and their houses destroyed, leaving them homeless and destitute. All these events predated the establishment of the state of Israel, and no doubt contributed to some extent to its creation. That, in turn, further undermined the position of Jews in Arab countries, already weakened through their perceived association with the West, and exposed to a new militancy that leaves no place for those who deviate from the rule. The result was a massive emigration of Jews from these countries, mostly in the late forties and early fifties."
Approximately the same number of Jews emigrated from Arab countries to Israel during that period, as Arabs were displaced from Palestine/Israel in 1948. Something like half or more of Israel's Jewish population today is comprised of these refugees and their descendents. (Which, if you think about it, suggests that Israel is already an Arab state, since another 20% of the population is Palestinian.)
Finally, you must recall that in the lead-up to the 1967 war, Nasser became a great hero of Arab nationalism by promising to "drive the Jews into the sea." Had he been as organized, as militarily capable, and had a society as industrialized as the Germans, he surely would have: I don't think anyone then or now thought he was speaking metaphorically.
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J. Crohn
Citizen
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 346
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 7:19 pm: | |
"Jews living in Israel had a clear choice: war for eviction, or peace, and chose war."
As I feared, you're way beyond sense or reason and no rational exchange is possible with you.
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hello
Citizen
Username: Hello
Post Number: 85
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 9:04 pm: | |
http://www.fmep.org/reports/2002/v12n6.html
(scroll down to "To our readers")
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OK, it's Straw Man
Citizen
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 981
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 12:56 am: | |
Looks like HELLO is finally doing some research in an attempt to back his pathetic ANTI-SEMETIC hate. |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 1690
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 7:05 am: | |
J. Crohn,
In response to my query:
"Why should the Arabs accept the Holocaust as a morally reasonable motivation for the Zionist enterprise?"
you wrote:
"Because it was, as anyone but a moral cretin should recognize."
Am I to understand that Western guilt over two millenia of anti-Semitism culminating in the Holocaust are reason to expect Arabs to accept a European Jewish state created out of Arab Palestine? The Arabs had no hand in this anti-Semitism. Moreover, as recently as 1917, the Arabs were treated rather poorly by the European powers. Britain and France replaced the Ottoman colonial presence with their own colonial presence.
Wouldn't it have made more sense to expel Austrians from Austria and make that a Jewish homeland. Or perhaps the Germans from the Rhineland?
It seems the case is that the legitmacy of Israel rests on two things: Western guilt over anti-Semitism and the Holocaust and the consistently primitive and brutal Arab reaction to the state of Israel. It is in the Arabs' own interests to address the second issue. Asking them to accept the first is asking a lot. |
hello
Citizen
Username: Hello
Post Number: 88
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 7:29 am: | |
all of my facts are checked and all of my opinions here are shared by a solid minority of israelis in the peace movement- there's nothing anti-semitic about it- it's anti-likud, anti-hassid (for their sucking off the u.s. taxpayer's teat when u.s. citizens can't), and it's law-and-order for all races- settlers are criminals, settlers who kill should be tried, convicted and executed, and ariel sharon should face the same for being a known mass-murderer.
by the way, the word is spelled "s-e-m-I-t-i-c", not s-e-m-E-t-i-c. it's hard enough for me to take you seriously, jethro, without adding the spelling of a 2nd-grader.
here's www.tikkun.org on the elections:
Reflections on the Israeli Election
Uri Avnery
I loathe Benjamin Netanyahu, and therefore I hoped that he would be elected leader of the Likud. I am sorry that current Prime Minister Ariel Sharon won the primary election instead.
How's that? After all, Netanyahu has presented himself as a man of the extreme right. Unlike Sharon, who now says that he is ready to accept a Palestinian state and does not talk anymore about expelling Arafat, Netanyahu continues to demand Arafat's expulsion (he would really like to see him dead and out of the way) and is ready to fight to the last drop of (our) blood against the creation of a Palestinian state.
So why did I prefer Netanyahu?
Because Netanyahu is an unprincipled politician, ready to change his positions any time. He reminds me of Groucho Marx, who once declared: "These are my views. If you don't like them, I have others, too." He could easily exchange his rightist slogans for leftist ones.
Sharon's recent willingness to at least appear to embrace peace may make some think he also is unprincipled, or at least willing to change his views. But he is not. Sharon is very different from Netanyahu: he has a rigid outlook, which he has not changed for decades. He resembles an IDF bulldozer in Jenin, destroying walls on his way and demolishing houses on top of their inhabitants. His aim in life is to destroy the Palestinian entity and imprison the Palestinians in isolated enclaves, until the time is ripe for their expulsion from the country altogether. Nowadays he hides his unwavering attachment to this plan behind the mask of a benevolent, moderate grandfather, who has settled down and wants nothing more than to crown his career by making peace.
If I can choose my enemy, I prefer an unprincipled politician to a disguised true believer. Netanyahu would have been easier for new Labor Party head, Amram Mitzna, to defeat.
In the competition for the Likud leadership, Netanyahu was a sheep in wolf's clothing, while Sharon was a wolf in sheep's clothing. The Likud members preferred the clothing of the sheep to that of the wolf. And that is significant.
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OK, it's Straw Man
Citizen
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 983
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 7:33 am: | |
you should know Mr. Anti-Semite. But, as usual you're wrong. It's spelled either way. I spell it the Hebrew way, you spell it the German way, just like a Nazi. Typical from a yo yo such as yourself.
Oh, and one more thing. Next time you cut and paste more b.s. off the internet try searching under my spelling. You'll come across a ton of Jew bashing material as well for your enjoyment.
Please go away, Jew hater. You're a clown. |
notehead
Citizen
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 682
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 2:45 pm: | |
Um... Dave?  |
mem
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 1912
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 2:54 pm: | |
Notehead - are you being a tattle tale? |
OK, it's Straw Man
Citizen
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 984
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 4:51 pm: | |
Mem,
I guess you can say Notehead's more interested in saving a few trees then he is the memory of seven million murdered Jews at the hands of those who shared the beliefs of this Hello character.
While Hello certainly needs help, I suggest Notehead try and figure out right from wrong as well. It would best serve him as he matures into a man. |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 1694
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 5:02 pm: | |
Dearest Straw,
Hello is not necessarily anti-Semitic simply because he/she has issues with Zionism. |
OK, it's Straw Man
Citizen
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 985
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 5:56 pm: | |
sure he is. He's a bad guy and dangerous to MOl because he's here to send a hate message. He also seems to have trouble distinguishing fact from fiction. All in all he's nothing more then a bag of hot air, but it would be nice if he took his copy and pasting elsewhere. |
hello
Citizen
Username: Hello
Post Number: 92
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 7:11 pm: | |
please post just one fiction i have told. |
shestheone
Citizen
Username: Shestheone
Post Number: 33
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 8:45 pm: | |
hate to see straw writing about himself that way...oops, he was commenting on hello.
a coincidence? i think not. |
Nohero
Citizen
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 2019
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 11:10 pm: | |
Interesting typo in Straw's post at 5:56 p.m.:
"He's a bad guy and dangerous to MOl because he's here to send a hate message."
Now, maybe Straw meant to type "MOL". However, it could also be read as "MOI", meaning "me" in French.
Straw could be upset because he believes Hello to be "a bad guy and dangerous to me ..."
Now, whether Hello is dangerous to Straw is something beyond my ability to know. However, it is interesting that Straw reverted to the French ("MOI") when referring to himself.
Is Straw a closet Frenchie? A snail-eatin', bath-hatin', Saddam-lovin' FROG?!!! It would not be the first time that a "Conservative Spokesperson" was unveiled as being exactly the type of person he or she was speaking against (See, e.g., the new book "Big Lies" by Joe Conason).
(Okay, I'm done. Back to "Liberalism Rules", whatever that means ...) |
Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 3
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 11:33 pm: | |
is it getting hot in here, or is it just me?
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OK, it's Straw Man
Citizen
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 987
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 1:34 am: | |
Hello,
You're not worth my time anymore. However, one example to answer your dopey question..White Republicans from the 1930's weren't strapping dynamite to their bodies and blowing up thousands of Jews. This as opposed to your little innocent Palestinians.
Nohero,
Yes, I am of French heritage. Based on Dave's rules you probably require a few days off as a result of your personal attack. By the way you've never heard me once bash the French. I normally might find your above post humorous except that I find anti-semites very dangerous and rather naive. To bad you don't. I guess if Bush were against Israel you'd feel differently. That's why you're so predictable.
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hello
Citizen
Username: Hello
Post Number: 93
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 7:16 am: | |
ajc-
perhaps you should take a course in reading comprehension. my claim- completely accurate- was white republicans in the 1930s were sympathetic to hitler in the same way the mufti of jerusalem was. the "america first" movement- many of whom openly asked why the u.s. should go to war to save "jewish bankers"- was an offshoot of the northeast republican party. it was founded at yale law school by, among others, a young student gerald r ford, although, in an irony (ford is a "ford", after all) it would later come to disavow henry r ford, the automaker- "that great god fearing job creator and union buster" according to you republicans, because of the virulence of his anti-semitism. |
Nohero
Citizen
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 2020
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 9:00 am: | |
Nobody would argue that people who are actually anti-Semitic can be dangerous. We should be concerned about anybody who is "anti" any ethnic group, race, religion, or other classification you care to choose.
There's still a big difference between a political view (even when expressed in impolitic, impolite or unpleasant language), and genuine anti-Semitism. |
notehead
Citizen
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 684
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 1:53 pm: | |
Jesus, Strawberry, you are seriously ill. Since the rules of participating in MOL are apparently no longer in effect, I've got to tell you... I have honestly never met an individual so determined to be a complete asshole on such a consistent basis as you are. You don't want to make a point or discuss an issue nearly as much as you want to be hyperbolic, polarizing, inflammatory, offensive, and, in general, a complete dick. You need a serious, thorough bitchslapping.
You go postal on anybody who suggests that the 9/11 tragedy wasn't the very worst moment in human history, yet you make my quiet complaint about your behavior into an opportunity to accuse me of not caring about the}} genocide of the Holocaust?! FUCK YOU!!
And what the hell is the matter with the rest of you, that you tolerate this kind of crap? Does it have to be directed at you before it's wrong?!
Yeah, Dave, whatever, I'll take a time out. |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 3339
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 3:03 pm: | |
Looks to me that Strawperson hasn’t been taking his meds again. I have stayed out of this thread because the last time I got involved in an Israel thread I got the full anti-Semitic treatment from his eminence and a couple of other posters.
Straw, it is not anti-Semitic not to be in lock step with Israel on all their policies nor to be aware that the roots of Israel are in terrorism. Personally, I find this ironic, not particularly shocking; because terrorism is the way the weak fight the powerful.
Once the docs get your dosage straightened out, I will be happy to discuss this further.
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mem
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 1913
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 3:24 pm: | |
Sheesh!
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mem
Citizen
Username: Mem
Post Number: 1914
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 3:26 pm: | |
I need meds after reading this thread! |
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