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Message |
    
nova87
Citizen
Username: Nova87
Post Number: 268
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 4:43 pm: |     |
Actually, I think the mini should be inside the Hummer. |
Flt
Citizen
Username: Flt
Post Number: 80
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 4:46 pm: | |
In the glove compartment. |
jet
Citizen
Username: Jet
Post Number: 244
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 5:09 pm: | |
Rich these days is making 350k. When you think about it a cop with a teacher wife can easily make 150k and then get 3/4 of that for the rest of their lives. Is that rich? |
JGTierney
Citizen
Username: Jtg7448
Post Number: 12
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 5:29 pm: | |
My husband and I just closed on our house - trust me...we're not rich. But we're here via 'creative financing'.
As other posters said, you don't need 20% down. We purchased our first car too....no money down with 0% interest. How can you say no to 0% interest????
With that and the low mortgage rates we became homeowners.
Now we don't have to blow $22,000 in rent next year. |
Dave Ross
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 5056
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 5:36 pm: | |
If you put 20% down you don't have to pay PMI insurance, which is tempting if you can swing it. |
JGTierney
Citizen
Username: Jtg7448
Post Number: 13
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 5:52 pm: | |
It is a question for our time...
What is 'rich'?
What is 'enough'?
How much is 'too much'?
Never in my life (all 34 years of it) have I felt
like such a SUPER CONSUMER. To be honest, I'm not enjoying it as much as you might think. And with what I've been buying lately (house, car, appliances, etc) I 'm definitely doing my part to beat the Recession. |
gretchen
Citizen
Username: Gretchen
Post Number: 53
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 6:16 pm: | |
Oh, brother. Here we go again. We make far less than the supposed "cop with a teacher wife" described above and we're rich. In fact, I believe the facts show we make more than 90% of the world's population. |
OK, it's Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 399
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 6:22 pm: | |
Being rich, to me, does not mean not worrying about money. Most people on MOL are what I would consider rich. Oh, I have my money struggles, too, but what basic needs do I lack? I can eat enough to be dangerously overweight, I am never cold in my bed in the winter, never hot in the summer, I have more clothes than I need. Same for my wife and kids. We have plenty of luxuries, too.
I worry about my retirement funds and my kids' college funds. But that's the future. What do I lack now? If I lose my job, I have a retirement fund I could dip into, which I would regret, but I would not starve. How many people in the world, or even the country, can say all this? Not enough.
I'm not going to go into the PC guilt crap. My point is that we have a lot to be grateful for, not that we should be handing out cash on the streets.
Tom Reingold
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Lizziecat
Citizen
Username: Lizziecat
Post Number: 21
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 9:01 pm: | |
We got the down payment for our house--over thirty years ago--from our parents. When our children needed down payments for their houses, they got them from us. We also contribute to college funds for our three grandchildren. No, we aren't rich, but we're not poor. We have a lifestyle which is not flashy. I drive a twelve year old car because I like it. Spouse has a local business. I am retired after thirty years in a modestly compensated profession. We spend a lot of time with our grandchildren. We buy lots of toys and polo shirts with dinosaurs on them. We wear sweatsuits. We eat out and give to charities. We have found that you really need a lot fewer possessions than you think you do.
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cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 35
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 9:43 am: | |
To arrive in the top 1% of income earners, you need to make $313K and up. To be in the top 5%, you need to make $128K. (all figures are for year 2000 -- IRS is the source).
Those top 5% (or the 'rich') that are making $128K and up pay 56% of all income taxes in this country. And they're not paying nearly enough as far as I'm concerned. They probably didn't earn it (I mean, REALLY earn it, know what I mean?). The rich never pay their fair share. And they don't need a tax cut, cuz they'll just invest it or save it, which won't help the economy at all. Especially locally, we should make them pay more in property taxes, cuz you can never pay too much for education. |
Jackie Day
Citizen
Username: Zoesky1
Post Number: 77
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 10:00 am: | |
Keep in mind that "rich" is a regional concept. Of course we all know that you could live like a king in Iowa on $150K a year, but that here that's nothing special. Out there, you can even live pretty well on a household income of $45K -- try buying a house in an upscale neighborhood here on that! By most of the country's standards, we're all fairly rich. But by this region's standards, many of us just feel middle class. Then you read about people in Greenwich who feel poor because they only make $1 million a year. This won't come as a surprise to anyone, but it's all relative. |
sportsnut
Citizen
Username: Sportsnut
Post Number: 491
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 10:12 am: | |
Um Cjc - My wife and I earn every penny that we make. What do you mean anyway? My parents paid for the undergraduate education I have. Everything else I've had to "earn" on my own.
I pay more than enough in taxes, thank you. In fact if you look at Federal, State, SS & medicare and property taxes its over 90K per year. Throw in another 5K in sales taxes on the two new cars I have and the countless other taxes I pay (gasoline tax, liquor taxes, etc.) and its easily close to 100K per year in TAXES. And that's with the new law enacted it would have been higher without it. That is not enough for you????
Wow. Oh and I do spend quite a bit of the money I earn.
And to Tom's point I am very grateful for all that we have.
Back to the original thread I also don't like the PT Cruiser for some reason. |
heroman
Citizen
Username: Heroman
Post Number: 45
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 10:55 am: | |
Gee CJC, I used to think that being in the top 5% range would be great and the money issues would end. WRONG! My spouse works a minimum 12 hours a day. We're the only people I know without nannies, sitters or a housekeeper. We don't mind paying taxes, we pay tons. We had to buy a house or we'd be paying way more. My spouse has student loans, no one gave us any money, we'll never drive a new car or live in Newstead, and not everyone invests or saves a tax cut because the house always needs something. We'll be helping our aging parents; and, here's the real killer, our kids will have to pay their own way through school, too. We're charitable and thankful. We pay our fair share. And yes you can pay too much for education or too little.
And the Rendezvous and Aztec are the most hideous cars around. The Pinto and Gremlin had more style!
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tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 1692
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 11:01 am: | |
I could have my screen names mixed up, but I suspect that CJC was parodying the left wing view of taxes. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 36
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 11:10 am: | |
It all depends on what you call 'earn' I guess. Do you get a lunch break? I don't. Nuff said.
The rich should pay their fair share and should have never gotten their tax cut. How are we going to be able to afford free healthcare for everyone if we let the rich get away with that? Or more education. People making 128K or more should be paying 1/2 their income in taxes. Hell...I only make 45K a year. Which is why I don't pay any taxes. Why should someone else have more than me?
Plus, the rich earn their money at the direct expense of the poor and the homeless. It's shameful.
We also need more services in Maplewood. You can't have too many of those either. |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 3330
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 11:10 am: | |
The following is from the 2000 US Census data:
26.2% of the households in MW had incomes of $125,000 or more in 1999.
10.3% of the households in MW had, again in 1999, incomes of $200,000 or more. The average income for this group was $326,000.
The average household income in MW in 1999 was $79,637.
Data Miner Bob |
heroman
Citizen
Username: Heroman
Post Number: 46
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 11:19 am: | |
Hmm, all you rich guys got it made...surfing and writing on this site at 11 a.m. on a Tuesday morning... |
JGTierney
Citizen
Username: Jtg7448
Post Number: 14
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 11:21 am: | |
I wonder what those numbers will be for the last few years in Maplewood?
We have moved here for lots of reasons. One, being that we were priced out of both Brooklyn and Manhattan. There was no comparison when looking apples to apples. For a small co-op you must put somewhere from 20%-25% down. We could never save that amount.
I was shocked to just realize that we fall into the top 5% category - though barely there. Why so shocked....because we've pushed every limit to just to get here.
Between the two of us we began our adult lives with $80,000 of student loans. Though we are not educators, our salaries are similar. This is not a complaint, it was a choice. And we both love what we do.
I fear (though not a great fear) that our 'suburban life' will reveal the reality of keeping up with the Jones'. I have no desire to keep up or even compare.
Is that what we are doing here???? |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 3331
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 2:00 pm: | |
TG, I hate to be the one to break this to you, but here in MW no one will talk to you unless you drive a new Volvo Cross Country (a Bimmer or a Hummer is better), food shop at King’s and Freeman’s Fish Market exclusively, buy you clothes at Sak’s and Bloomies, send your kids to Newark Academy and, well, you get the picture.
I am the exception, however. I can be found hanging out in front of the Bagel Chateau in my 1994 World Cup t-shirt, paint spattered jeans, Pumas held together with duct tape chopping on a Twinkie. I will be happy to talk to you anytime.  |
JGTierney
Citizen
Username: Jtg7448
Post Number: 15
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 2:23 pm: | |
Bobk,
You'll recognize me then!
I'll be the redheaded woman disguised as a contractor. My hair will be unkempt and my clothes will be 6 shades of brown.
As hubby and I will be spending the next 3 years under debris, plaster, and paint.
And I'll have to be back on the '3 bagels a day plan' - same as in grad school. Buttered bagel for breakfast, bagel and cheese for lunch, and then a pizza bagel for dinner.
Do you know where I can buy Ramen noodles? Do they sell them at King's????? |
shh
Citizen
Username: Shh
Post Number: 628
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 2:24 pm: | |
I don't know how people do it now, but we were able to buy 7.5 years ago by scrimping and saving.
Yes, prices were MUCH lower, but we earned a combined 70 grand (if even). We were only in our mid-twenties, and then just before we bought our house I became pregnant, and knowing we wanted me to stay home, literally got the cheapest house we could find within walking distance to town. We were renting in Jersey City, so we knew what we could manage to pay out each month.
We bought only a few months after we got married, so we used some of our wedding gifts to help put down 20%. We also paid for most of our wedding.
Our parents had given us about a combined $10 grand for the wedding, and each bought us a big appliance for the house. I had some student loans as well.
I guess we were really conscious about how we spent our money, and there were a few tough years in there, but we've managed.
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sportsnut
Citizen
Username: Sportsnut
Post Number: 493
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 2:34 pm: | |
JG - no, the subject of wealth comes up sometimes here on MOL because (IMHO) the overwhelming theme on Maplewood online seems to be fiscally liberal with the mentality that all "rich" folks are greedy and unethical and they somehow shun their civic duty by not paying enough in taxes.
What I have found in MW (contrary to Bobk's tongue in cheek description) and one of the reasons why I like the town is that there is very little pretentiousness about it. The people here are genuine, and though I disagree with a vast majority of them on many issues they are downright friendly. As a comparison I lived in Chatham for a couple of years and every now and then I need to spend a little time over there to remind myself of how not to act. Talk about keeping up with the joneses. It is a great town if only it could lose the 'tude.
Welcome. Hopefully you don't drive one of those Aztecs or Rendezvous. Thanks for whoever posted those, how could I forget them. |
JGTierney
Citizen
Username: Jtg7448
Post Number: 16
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 2:43 pm: | |
Sportsnut,
Thanks for writing...we're trying to leave the whole competitive Manhattanite thing behind us.
Almost bought a Honda Element - just too ugly, couldn't go there |
OK, it's Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 402
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 2:59 pm: | |
sportsnut, thank you for saying that. I find that however we disagree on political views, you're a nice guy, and nothing can change that. The differences of opinions rarely matter in the end. (For those who don't know, sportsnut and I have met.)
bobk, is $79,637 the median or mean income? And what is the standard deviation? They never post that, do they? My understanding is that there is wide variation of income in SO/M. That being the case, many of us are quite rich compared to our neighbors. And that can be true, even though we have stress and worries over money.
Over in the "no cash for lunch" thread, someone posted the income level you have to have to get a free or reduced lunch. There are lots of people in SO/M with really low incomes. I hope that makes the rest of us feel fortunate. Good fortune does not mean no worries, though.
sportsnut, I would not characterize anyone here as greedy, but I do have a problem with the view that government doesn't have the right to tax. I don't know WHO here said that, so I'm not addressing anyone in particular. It does dismay me when I see that attitude, though. I do agree with scrutinizing a public budget, though, to make sure we're getting our money's worth.
Tom Reingold
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bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 3333
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 3:20 pm: | |
Tom, the $79,637 figure is the median household income. The 326,000 figure is an average I obtained by taking the aggregate household income and dividing by the number of households in the range. You are correct about MW being a mixed income town. There are approximately the same number of households with incomes below $25,000 as over $200,000!
TG, I think you will have to go to the Asian Grocery in East Hanover next to Home Depot for the noodles. You will be spending a lot of time at HD, so this shouldn't be a problem.
When my wife and I moved into our first house here in town back in 1979 we had $400 in our bank accounts and payday was almost two weeks away. Hamburger Helper with a little ground beef and a lot of oatmeal isn't so bad once you get use to it. LOL |
sportsnut
Citizen
Username: Sportsnut
Post Number: 494
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 3:22 pm: | |
Tom - I, personally, have never argued that governments don't have the right to tax. As a CPA who has made a very comfortable living understanding the nuances of the IRC, I realize that taxation is a necessary evil. What I have a problem with is when the finger pointing starts it always seems to stop in the direction of the wealthy. When in reality, as you pointed out, the real culprit is not the revenues its the expenses.
The theory of one paying their fair share is a subjective exercise in futility. Who decides what's fair? Is my paying of 90K plus in taxes fair? I don't think so. Am I fortunate that I can pay it? Yes. But when the well runs a little dry don't come back and ask me to pay more. I think that is quite enough. After all I also have a family (kid in college one in day care etc.) I have earned the "right" to enjoy some of my earnings.
Wow, talk about thread drift.
Back to the original topic:
http://www.forbes.com/2003/08/25/cx_dl_0825feat.html
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OK, it's Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 409
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 5:36 pm: | |
I don't follow what you're saying, sportsnut. In the beginning of your second paragraph, you say that it's a never-ending, never-satisfying quest to decide what's fair. Very good point. Then you say that you're taxed enough and your taxes should never go higher. What happened to your point about there not being the perfect person to decide what's fair? It's natural for the person being hit up for money to say no, but that doesn't mean it's the best thing. What we're doing here is trying to balance individual needs with societal needs. When you say "don't tax me more" you are speaking only of your individual needs.
In other words, "tax me unless it hurts."
Given that you and I are both fortunate people and that there are many who are not, why is it wrong for us to help the less fortunate? I feel it's society's job to do so.
See today's column by Bob Herbert. I can supply the text if you don't want to set up a free NY Times account for yourself.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/28/opinion/28HERB.html
By the way, I don't think this is thread drift, although I realize you started the thread. The question "what recession" sounds like "if people are doing badly, how can it be that some are doing well?" The answer to that is that the rich/poor gap is widening quickly and severely. That is why you see lots of fancy cars and hear about unemployment and lack of health care. Because both of those things are happening, but to different people.
Tom Reingold
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