| Author |
Message |
    
JGTierney
Citizen
Username: Jtg7448
Post Number: 17
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 12:03 am: |     |
Do you need work permits when doing demo in your own home?
We're new in town, and well, pretty confident in what we're doing as we're both architects - but I don't want to get anyone upset.
Anyone dealt with this?
Thanks :-) |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 1698
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 6:11 am: | |
Stricly speaking, you need work permits for every type of home improvement. If you do anything that changes the tax profile of your house (e.g. number of rooms, closets, etc.), work done without a permit will be discovered when you sell your house at some point in the future. The town office ought to have a description of your house so that you can tell what the tax collector believes your house look like. |
JGTierney
Citizen
Username: Jtg7448
Post Number: 18
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 9:14 am: | |
Ah...
But that is the point of my question.
We are NOT changing the house. We are simply removing what was there - in actuality we are simplifying the house.
There are multiple existing walls in the basement which we want to tear out. There are partitions up in the attic that we to remove. The town already knows these rooms exist and we are taxed accordingly. What do you think?
Also, the house obviously has a kitchen. We want to remove the exisiting cabinets. This is NOT a remodelling exercise. All appliances will be staying in their existing positions and NO walls will be moved. Will kitchen 'improvement' be the same as kitchen 'rennovation'? No one gets to charge me extra tax simply because I buy a new refrigerator, do they?
To my mind they are not they same.
Any thoughts on this???
Thanks so much. |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 1700
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 9:26 am: | |
The law is that permits are required for all home improvement work including demolition. In practice, I do not believe this law is applied to lesser home improvements.
If you do anything that changes the profile of the house as recorded by the last tax assessment, I think it would be a good idea to get a permit.
For lesser work, you can skip permits. For example, strictly speaking permits are needed for all electrical additions. However, if you hire an electrician to add an outdoor powerpoint, chances are that he won't bother with a permit. Similarly, minor plumbing changes are done without permits. |
JGTierney
Citizen
Username: Jtg7448
Post Number: 19
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 9:36 am: | |
TJohn -
Thanks for the quick reply
I'll probably go in and chit-chat with them - always good to start off on the right foot!
Though we're not doing anything major now (all tapped out in the fund department), we may further down the road.
Have a good day. |
Joan
Citizen
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 1883
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 8:15 pm: | |
JGTierney:
The main reason for requiring building permits is to insure that all renovation work, addition or removal, is done according to code.
For example: the town will probably want to make sure that the interior walls you plan to remove are not load bearing.
|
jgberkeley
Supporter
Username: Jgberkeley
Post Number: 3101
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 7:57 am: | |
Given what you are doing, they will want to review your plans to agree that load bearing walls are not removed, and changes to plumbing and electrical systems are designed and executed per code.
Permits will be required. |
hello
Citizen
Username: Hello
Post Number: 96
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 8:09 am: | |
let me add in here there's nothing to hesitate about re: going to the town building department. they are not fee-grubbers- twice they have told me i don't need a permit for minor things i am doing, when i was there with checkbook in hand. goes a long way in my book. also, they have twice accepted my sketches on other work i am doing, working with me and not demanding i have a draftsman draw it up. good folks down there. |
1-2many
Citizen
Username: Wbg69
Post Number: 270
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 11:06 am: | |
remember that all work that changes your house's tax profile will change (increase) your property taxes. having an inspection to verify that certain work is "up to code" is not the super-holiness it's cracked up to be - any licensed laborer will already be doing his/her work according to such standards, and you often hear of things being required at inspections that aren't required under the building code. further, you are already protected against any defective work if your worker is bonded or insured.
there's a good chance many things in your house aren't "up to code" as they were put in long ago, when the codes were different. thus, small changes you want to make may be illegal due to new code restrictions - requiring much larger changes to bring the existing situation in line with the code, when in fact there is no hazard, danger or even an issue that would make your house less attractive to a buyer.
that said, my contractor tells me the MW building inspector is among the best there is, compared to other towns in this area. |
botulismo
Citizen
Username: Botulismo
Post Number: 88
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 8:58 am: | |
What about demo on interior wall surfaces like removing plaster and lath and replacing with sheetrock? We have damaged plaster and would like to take the opportunity to replace and insulate our exterior walls in our kitchen.
What about replacing windows? |
Joan
Citizen
Username: Joancrystal
Post Number: 1889
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 2:33 pm: | |
1-2 many:
It's nice that you have such confidence in the contractors you hire. Others have not been so lucky.
One of the advantages of obtaining a building permit (a reputable contractor should insist on obtaining one) is that you can make the new work's successfully passing the building inspection a condition of final payment.
I believe that pre-code conditions are generally grandfathered in when a building inspection is made. However, if the building inspector notes a fire hazard or structural defect which pose a serious problem down the road, it is a good idea to address that hazard or defect as soon as time and funds permit.
Think of the building inspection fee as an insurance premium which is well worth the modest cost. |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 3345
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 3:16 pm: | |
Unfotunately a fact of life here is that the tax man follows in the footsteps of the building inspector, which causes many to perform rennovations without a permit. |
olaf
Citizen
Username: Olaf
Post Number: 9
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 2, 2003 - 2:59 pm: | |
I had been told when demoing my basement that the permit would only be required on reconstruction. That said, it was by the contractor, not the town.
When talking to the building department, hold out for Mr. Mittermeier. I was given incorrect information 3 times, by 3 people (clerks). When I spoke with the actual decision maker, things became much more clear and he was very reasonable and helpful. If I were doing it again, I would have called the town myself regarding the demolition.
Chris
(fixed mispelling) |
1-2many
Citizen
Username: Wbg69
Post Number: 286
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 2, 2003 - 3:11 pm: | |
Mittermeier is very knowledgeable and helpful; his # 973-762-8120, ext 3600.
why doesn't MW have a tax abatement program as SO does, giving a 5-year period before taxes kick in on improvements? |
jgberkeley
Supporter
Username: Jgberkeley
Post Number: 3114
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 3, 2003 - 3:21 am: | |
botulismo,
For the things you listed, no permit is required. That said, once you open the walls you may find remains of flash fires around the older electrical boxes or even a plumbing problem that could use a quick fix.
Then you need a permit. |
Elizabeth
Citizen
Username: Elizabeth
Post Number: 235
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 3, 2003 - 7:21 am: | |
Many years ago, the sale of our house nearly fell through when the buyers discovered that a certain renovation had been done without permits, (The renovation had been done by the people we bought from--don't know why _we_ didn't discover this when we bought!) If you skip permits when necessary, be prepared for such unpleasantness if you sell.
Based on this experience, when we renovated our kitchen here, I made sure to get permits/inspections for everything. A year after the job was finished jgberkely walked into my kitchen and instantly noticed several things that weren't up to code.
So the worst case scenario for doing things on the up and up is that your taxes will increase and you won't even be able to feel secure that the work has been done to code! |
Elizabeth
Citizen
Username: Elizabeth
Post Number: 236
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 3, 2003 - 7:23 am: | |
oops. spelling mistake
jgberkeley |
Musetta
Citizen
Username: Musetta
Post Number: 17
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 3, 2003 - 7:59 am: | |
ok...I'm kind of confused now :-( I didn't think you needed a permit to update existing rooms...we are in the middle of a kitchen renovation (cabinets, counters, appliances, floors, fixtures) and I would never dream I would need any permits just to chance cosmetics (i.e. throw out some really old, ugly cabinets and formica!)...am I wrong? should I call? Thanks! |
jgberkeley
Supporter
Username: Jgberkeley
Post Number: 3115
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 3, 2003 - 9:00 am: | |
For your kitchen job, yes, I think you are wrong and should contact the building dept.
If you touch any plumbing, electrical or outside wall, you need permits. (Outside wall for insulation) |
JGTierney
Citizen
Username: Jtg7448
Post Number: 20
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 3, 2003 - 11:03 am: | |
We visited the Building Department yesterday. They were very helpful.
The code is set up for safety - yours and your neighbors. You need a permit once you touch the
wiring or the plumbing. Which we are intending on doing. This all makes perfect sense to me as a building professional - I just didn't know how strict the town was and needed some feedback.
My new question is regarding taxes. And yes, I agree that the main reason people fear permits is that they fear tax increases.
If we do NOT increase the size of our kitchen, but simply improve it (i.e. new gyp walls, proper wiring, proper outlets and switches, and of course new appliances and cabinets - but not any new fixtures) will we see a tax increase?
If there is an increase, I must admit this makes NO sense to me whatsoever. I think an abatement or even tax credit makes more sense. One would think the town would want to promote home improvement. We would be essentially making our kitchen safer than it has been for 40 years. Why should we be penalized for this?
I undertstand an increase for building envelope changes, but not improvements. If your livable space increases you should pay the tax man - but not for just refurbishment. How is the kitchen any different that putting in new hardwood floors? Again to my point - the improvement of the kitchen is more of a safeguard than new floors.
What have any of you experienced? |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 3362
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 3, 2003 - 2:24 pm: | |
The theory is that anything that increases the market value of a dwelling should be reflected in the assessed value and the taxes paid. Again in theory this is hard to argue with. This is a very high tax area and the Town as well as the School District are under tremendous financial pressure.
However, there is a line somewhere between increasing tax revenue and discouraging renovation and even repair of properties. I don’t claim to know where the line is, but I know it is out there somewhere!
Few would argue that replacing a worn out 1950s kitchen increases market value. The big question is how much?
|
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 3363
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 3, 2003 - 2:25 pm: | |
The theory is that anything that increases the market value of a dwelling should be reflected in the assessed value and the taxes paid. Again in theory this is hard to argue with. This is a very high tax area and the Town as well as the School District are under tremendous financial pressure.
However, there is a line somewhere between increasing tax revenue and discouraging renovation and even repair of properties. I don’t claim to know where the line is, but I know it is out there somewhere!
Few would argue that replacing a worn out 1950s kitchen increases market value. The big question is how much?
|
JGTierney
Citizen
Username: Jtg7448
Post Number: 23
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 3, 2003 - 2:41 pm: | |
Bobk,
I guess what I'm asking is exactly what you've stated....how much and where is the line drawn?
?
What gets re-assessed:
floors
fences
wallpaper
paint
paving a driveway
changing a light
Is there a definition for 'Capital Improvements'?
I understand that we should be taxed according to the value of our homes, but where does it begin and end?
At some point, particularly in this town with an aging home stock, improvements need to be encouraged.
Which brings me back to anoter posters question of why is there abatement in SO but not Mapplewood?
I guess I need to attend Town Council meetings, huh? At some point it becomes time to participate in the system rather than simply gripe online |
jgberkeley
Supporter
Username: Jgberkeley
Post Number: 3116
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 3, 2003 - 4:19 pm: | |
Perhaps you should call or visit the Tax assessor and ask questions before you go to the TC to voice concerns.
I've never asked as my remodule work was done before the reval and I took a big hit. |
JGTierney
Citizen
Username: Jtg7448
Post Number: 24
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 3, 2003 - 4:30 pm: | |
Your very right.
I should do my best to educate myself on all
fronts.
This is why I find Maplewood online so helpful. The discussions open my eyes to other viewpoints.
Thanks all! |
margotsc
Citizen
Username: Margotsc
Post Number: 21
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, September 6, 2003 - 9:00 pm: | |
Not sure if this helps anyone, but I just called the Tax Assessors office and found out they have raised our assessment for 2004 b/c of two major renovations. We did a gut job in March on our extremely outdated kitchen but did not add any square footage, and we added central air. Who knows where they come up with the numbers but the C/A is adding $4,000 to our overall assessment and the kitchen $8300. I would have thought the kitchen would add more than that and the C/A less ... Anyway, overall my tax bill is going up by about $400 a year. Could be better, could be worse. I wouldn't let it stop you from getting permits, however, b/c it will affect you on resale. |
margotsc
Citizen
Username: Margotsc
Post Number: 22
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, September 6, 2003 - 9:00 pm: | |
Not sure if this helps anyone, but I just called the Tax Assessors office and found out they have raised our assessment for 2004 b/c of two major renovations. We did a gut job in March on our extremely outdated kitchen but did not add any square footage, and we added central air. Who knows where they come up with the numbers but the C/A is adding $4,000 to our overall assessment and the kitchen $8300. I would have thought the kitchen would add more than that and the C/A less ... Anyway, overall my tax bill is going up by about $400 a year. Could be better, could be worse. I wouldn't let it stop you from getting permits, however, b/c it will affect you on resale. |
Musetta
Citizen
Username: Musetta
Post Number: 19
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 8, 2003 - 8:25 am: | |
For some reason, this seems to be such a big Maplewood deal! I pretty much gutted my previous home in NJ (didn't move walls. did call an electricial to update things) and the tax people laughed at me for even calling! This all seems SO ridiculous to me. I am not moving plumbing or electrics..heck...I'm not even changing the position or amount of cabinets! I AM stripping off flooring down to the ORIGIONAL wood (how the HECK could I pay tax on something that's already there?!) replacing old cabinets and putting on a new counter (and paint, lights, etc.) What a scam this whole tax discussion sounds like. How the heck would the tax guys know if I am doing it all at once on in itty, bitty bits over, say, five years. Who calls the tax guys when you are replacing a cheap light fixture? How can a $50 light raise your taxes? Painting your walls a different color? Hanging a new cabinet when one breaks? sorry. I still don't get it. I've sold other homes - people want permits for additions and fireplaces, sure....but I would highly doubt someone would ask if I was the one to put in the particular light (or floor, or cabinet) and where is the permit. It doesn't even ask for those things on a sellers disclosure. Guess I'll take my chances....besides...maybe I'll never have to move :-) better yet...maybe I sould save the old cabinets and throw them up when I'm going to sell and take my new ones with me :-) Anyway..enough from me...I don't really know anything about this anyway-I'll call my accountant :-) I just don't see how cosmetics can change your taxes...heck..maby I sould throw out my furniture, buy old junk and put up wall-paper and linolium (sp?)- make my place look as unattractive as possible...would my taxes go down for that? |
JGTierney
Citizen
Username: Jtg7448
Post Number: 28
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 8, 2003 - 8:52 am: | |
This is still where I'm confused:
Who discerns the difference between 'improvement' or 'total rehaul' - who determines the price tag?
I would think that process alone sees abuse. Do I put on my drawings that I'm using laminate flooring and cheap particle board cabinets - when I'm really using for instance a slate floor, granite countertops, and hardwood cabinets????
Who determines how much my new kitchen costs - me or the town?
And again, where do you draw the line?
I already have new wood floors in the house, and no one wants to tax me for them? No permit required.
The only thing that makes sense to me:
You are required to get a permit for all plumbing and electrical changes.
You should only be taxed on the amount of THOSE changes. Not on anything asthetic. Aesthetics are subjective. |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 1729
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 8, 2003 - 9:31 am: | |
I would expect that the building inspector is concerned with the structural integrity of the work you have done. I would be surprised if he cares about the specific finishing touches as long as the wiring, insulation, plumbing and any structural work is done correctly.
For the permit, do you even have to specify the nature of the finishing materials? |
JGTierney
Citizen
Username: Jtg7448
Post Number: 29
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 8, 2003 - 9:36 am: | |
Sorry to be confusing....
I've moved on from the Building Department to the Tax Assessor.
What information does the Tax Assessor need to see? Do they come look at it? |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 3379
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 8, 2003 - 10:11 am: | |
I believe the Building Department provides the Tax Assessor with information on building permits issued.
Few would argue that a new kitchen increases the value of a house significantly and some charge should be made. A year or so ago a poster indicated he was reassessed for electrical work, however, my guess is that that is the exception, not the rule.
There is a line somewhere (I don't know where it is) between "maintenance" and "improvement". |
amh
Citizen
Username: Amh
Post Number: 10
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, September 8, 2003 - 12:43 pm: | |
In case you didn't already have reasons NOT to file for work permits, how's this for a disincentive: the South Orange building department is charging us $900 for our kitchen renovation work permits. While I appreciate the importance of code enforcement, this seems excessive. Anyone else have similar complaints? Is this unique to South Orange? |
peteglider
Citizen
Username: Peteglider
Post Number: 215
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Monday, September 8, 2003 - 1:39 pm: | |
I had a full basement finished in my house in another NJ town - and the permits were about $800 -- so your $900 for a kitchen seems in line.
Last year when I had new central air put in (a 2nd unit) -- the permits were a couple hundred (here in SO).
That covered plumbing, mechanical, and electrical. All told (b/c electric failed twice) the inspectors made quite a number of visits to my house.
I believe they all work on a contract basis to SO -- I doubt what I paid the town covered the inspectors costs.
Pete |
themp
Citizen
Username: Themp
Post Number: 150
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 2:39 pm: | |
If we could get out house back to 1929 condition, we'd be happier. Now I wonder, did the assessment go up when the ugly panelling was put in the 60's? Shouldn't it go back down when we remove the panelling? I removed a linoleum floor and returned the kitchen floor to the original oak. I don't see why this info should be shared with the tax assessor office. I don't tell them when I paint, or hang curtains, or clean the sink.
Someone enclosed our porch somewhere along the line, and we are eager to open it up again. Similarly, will we get our taxes lowered because we have eliminated liveable space? Did they go up when it was enclosed?
I guess the idea is that all changes are improvements to the market value. It seems that they should distinguish between quantifiable things like adding space, and subjective things, like putting in new cabinets, or removing drop ceilings. I think it is unfair to have to pay extra taxes because you are de-uglifying your house in the direction of its original condition. |
OK, it's Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 516
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 4:57 pm: | |
By that token, themp, do you think I could get a tax break for uglifying my house? I have really bad taste.
Tom Reingold
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Brian Ratkevich
Citizen
Username: Fotboat
Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 9, 2003 - 1:16 pm: | |
Go to town hall and get a detailed assessment on your house, This is a one sheet doc showing a rough floor plan. This doc will tell you the rates for each item, in your house that determines its value, mostly based on sqft. Review it, there are always mistakes in it, both up and down, usually dealing with dimensions. I dropped my house value by $10K due to errors I found. From this sheet you can calculate what the value change of your house (up or down) would be if you change something.
There is also supposed to be a book that lists the rates for each item/enhancement, I don't have it, but I just got a copy of my neighbor's sheet (public record) which was completely redone (A/C, etc) and compared the rates. There are different rates for updated/non-updated kitchens, etc, etc.
I have three porches on the first floor (one open, one covered, and one enclosed) and each has a different rate per sqft to calc value. So Yes if you remove an enclosure from a porch, you should be able get your house reassessed lower.
Another Interesting Point deals with Attics, There is a Unfinished rate(per sqft), then you add a finished rate if finished. The town uses sqft based on complete floor dimensions, even though maybe only ½ of the attic is livable (ceiling > 5ft high) due to a pitched roof. What this means is if you presently have an attic considered finished, and you add a domer to increase the attic livable/useable sqft, there should be no increase to your home value, thus no increase to your taxes.
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JGTierney
Citizen
Username: Jtg7448
Post Number: 49
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 9, 2003 - 3:39 pm: | |
interesting...
Thanks Brian! |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 3551
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, October 9, 2003 - 3:57 pm: | |
Brian:
The record you are talking about is the property record card. Back a couple of years ago during the Reval most of us obtained a copy and went over it with a fine tooth comb. I am surprised that you found errors in yours, as there was a review process in place.
These are maintained by the Tax Assessor’s office and available either free or for a nominal photocopy charge. I forget which.
The library has, or use to have, a copy of the New Jersey Tax Assessors Manual in the reference section. I hedge on this because I vaguely remember that someone lifted it when we were all trying to get up to speed on this subject. It isn’t light reading.
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