| Author |
Message |
    
Townie
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 4:27 pm: |     |
Hi, Mfpark:
I really don't think people who want more information about the methodology of the reval, like you do, are trying to stop the whole thing. But I am suggesting that the best way to do that is to contact members of the TC yourself and not rely on Fairtax. Contrary all the bashing, if you take a look at how governments usually perform when faced with the kinds of complaints -- and even crisis -- that this TC faced, their turnaround time and sharing and leading the learning curve has been rather remarkable. Really. County and state government would have been nowhere near as forthcoming. And Jerry Ryan's willingness to crunch the numbers with everybody publicly on the board, as well as others, in the space of the month has to be looked at realistically: it is a much better level of service and responsiveness than most people ever get from government.
Anyway, it's true that I don't share your concern for transparency -- less, actually, because my assessment is correct than because if the reval implementation is to be held up until I understand how my assessment is arrived at, I guarantee you we will all be waiting for me to get up to speed for several years. I think you will understand it, I don't think Fairtax will (they seem to not understand the reval process or state tax law, period), but I especially object to any minority pressure group insisting the reval be postponedbecause there is some very large number of people in Maplewood who "need" to understand how their CORRECT assessment was arrived at. Not true.
For people like yourselves, who appear to have an INCORRECT assessment, people like me who have a CORRECT one need to get you to the people of whom you can ask questions. I would submit that is not furthered by my standing in front of you in line demanding answers about my CORRECT assessment, nor is it helpful if I go, on your behalf, to town officials and insult them, falsely accuse them of failure to respond, refuse to listen to what they say, and ask them to do something they legally can't do.
You are right, Mfpark, that if I felt my house was overvalued I would be doing everything in my political and legal power to get it corrected. I would nonetheless not be associated with Fairtax. They're just too uninformed about property tax law and the assessment process -- not because of some dastardly doings by the TC but because -- I don't know. They've been talking more than they've been listening and reading and trying to understand? |
Waynecaviness
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 4:39 pm: | |
Townie,
Do I understand your above post of 4:11 pm correctly? You got an e-mail from Fairtax? Are you on their e-mail list? It sounds if you were at that point in time. Are you still?
Not being nosey, but given your remarks (some of which I agree with, some of which I dont, but thats why we have vanilla and chocolate...), I would find that surprising. |
Townie
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 4:53 pm: | |
Waynecaviness,
I am on their e-mail list. I was so irritated at one point by their gratuitous TC bashing and how quickly they degenerated into a garden variety anti-tax pressure group that I almost asked them to stop. Then I didn't bother. I think they are getting cagier about what they do (sort of) but basically they are so anti the TC, I can't see them as a useful force in this reval process. Also, they really don't seem to understand New Jersey tax law. Or the inevitable consequences of not doing a valuation since 1981. I think they really aren't participating in the process of helping homeowners understand what the situation is in Maplewood. Even if they are sincerely focused on understanding the assessor's methadology, they've lost sight of the fact of understanding what happened to property values in Maplewood over 19 years and the meaning of the Midtown Direct.
Also, calling for a citizen's review board of the independent assessor really makes me wonder how much they understand of any legal or governmental process.
To me the difficulty is that the structure of NJ tax law means that, with this reval, it is possible that some people who recently bought and some seniors and perhaps some others too will have to sell their homes. The New Jersey tax structure is horribly unfair. And Maplewood is not a bubble. We can't write our own property tax law. At this point, I don't have anything useful to say to people facing that situation. But you know what? Neither does Fairtax. I think they are just trying to ambush the TC and the town, and I don't see what good is coming out of it. |
Fairtax01
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 5:11 pm: | |
Townie - These messages came from individuals who "borrowed" the open FairTax e-mail list and wrote not as FairTax but as independant opinions. You omit to mention the e-mail(s) that promptly followed from FairTax that clarified that message was not from us.
What makes you say we're an "...unhelpful source of political scheming"? Please clarify.
Townie, while your assessment might be OK with you, there was/is a severely flawed process which ironically is shifting the burden now back to many that the reval was supposed to give tax relief to in the first place.
You want the reval to go through - that's your opinion, but please stop your unsubstantiated attacks - i.e. "everyone sees you just want to keep the waters muddied" "more hot air than helpfulness", "spread rumours about wild assessments" -- back up what you say. Let's try to be civil - OK? I'll bet we can agree on some things. How about that we both love this town but we have different opinions about the validity of the reval? That's really what this is all about. |
Mtierney
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 6:04 pm: | |
I would appreciate Fairtax putting its collective noses into the situation for the middle of Maplewood. I have been paying close to $12G for several years now, it will rise to $14.5G or $16G depending on what the tax rate will eventualy be set at.
Many of the people in my neighborhood have been paying $10G to $12G believing it was their fair share, like what our eastside residents have said. We too thought we were due for a break!
There are several bottom lines here: property taxes can't support schools; the municipal government seems extremely tight financially (watched last night's meeting); and God only know where the money goes that we send to the county.
Forcing people to sell their homes or stay and watch the shiny new assessments drop as prospective buyers' jaws drop when you tell them what the taxes are, is wrong.
Oh, and Maplewood will be facing serious competition in the real estate market as other towns get direct rail service. Springfield is due in two years - and we all know how great Union's taxes are! |
Townie
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 6:12 pm: | |
Citizen and Fairtax:
Let's try to be civil? This from the people who wrote that all that innuendo about the TC and delivered to the local paper? Just repeating "respectfully" doesn't mean much when you try to make people falsely believe they are not getting truthfulness and responsiveness from the TC. Are you really surprised you've elicted an aggravated response to your message board face about what you're doing?
What I mean by your having become an unhelpful source of political scheming is that you're exploiting the confusion and fear some people in this town have about the possibility of losing their home, for heaven's sake, to push your own agenda. I'm sure some people who are in touch with Fairtax are solely concerned with this reval. But there is just too much you've already let circulate about "The Revaluation and Beyond" (is this the e-mail you're repudiating?) concerning the tax levy for the schools and future tax increases (erroneously calculated by you, as my spouse pointed out to me). I never signed up for the private e-mails about the class action suit. Is that still in the works?
At this point I simply don't believe you that you're now taking up the cause of people who have been illegally overassessed for years in this town. You keep shifting what you say to make it sound more populist and appealing. That is, when you're not trying play "Gotcha" with everything or anything the TC does to help people out in this town.
I don't think my attacks are unsubstantiated. Most of what you've circulated and called for has demonstrated a worrisomely inadequate understanding of NJ tax law. I have backed up what I said. I think you want me to be quiet because what I say hits its mark!
What you are doing is not helpful. Please get more informed about what is legally possible before you start making renewed demands for postponements, rejections, etc. And if you are going to go on painting false portraits of the TC and making unrealistic demands, of course you'll be contradicted. And people will be angry with you. It will create further divisions in this town. On top of everything else, you've got very little political sense.
I think the burden is on you to demonstrate your credibility as people who understand the issues and are trying to do what's best for the town. Your letter to the News-Record did you no credit at all. It's nice of you to extend a virtual hand and imply here that people in Maplewood who disagree with you aren't enemies. I'd more appreciate another letter hand-delivered to the Mayor and News Record that clarifies that with respect to the human beings and neighbors on the TC. |
Nakaille
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 6:24 pm: | |
I actually heard a fair amount of talk from some longtime residents and politically involved people at the first big TC meeting on the reval (at town hall) that there was an opposition (Democratic) political faction behind the Fairtax push. (This was during the 45 minutes before the meeting got started. Those of us who gots seats go there pretty early and the place was buzzing.) They said it was a lot more than just the tax thing and that the tax thing was just a very convenient vehicle. The folks I overheard were chuckling about how this was going to be hard on the current TC. It was one of the things that distressed me at that meeting. Did anyone else hear that kind of rumor or discussion at the meetings or around town? (My impression, could be wrong, was that they were Republicans enjoying something at others' expense.)
Bacata |
Nilmiester
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 6:25 pm: | |
Looks like Townie is either a TC member or married to one. The fairtax group has every right to fight their taxes and they don't have to like the TC committee either. |
Ffof
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 6:32 pm: | |
MTierney- You guys need to organize! Door to door! Then with Fairtax, the TC and anyone else who has a mind for this, put our collective minds together and do something positive toward STATE property tax reform! Forget all this energy wasted on nit-picking the reassessment! We have a major budget crisis looming - between the BOE (which, BTW, actually just got a pittance back from the state apparently) and the town's expenditures, we're ALL screwed! |
Fairtax01
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 6:45 pm: | |
Townie - "the revaluation and beyond" e-mail was not from FairTax, it was never from FairTax and you know that.
Townie, you say, "I simply don't believe that you're now taking up the cause of people who've been illegally assessed for years" ...what have you EVER read from FairTax that contradicts that we are for fairness for everyone in town? We were always for a fair assessment for all, and we've stated many times that a reval was long overdue.
What have we circulated that "demonstrates a worrisomely inadequate understanding of NJ tax law'?
You continue to back up your opinions with inaccurate assumptions instead of facts. |
Fairtax01
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 6:48 pm: | |
Ffof - I couldn't agree with you more. |
Ffof
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 6:49 pm: | |
Bacata- I wouldn't doubt that there are politically minded people around town (in Fairtax and not in Fairtax) who enjoy watching the TC squirm. I don't find that distressing, I find it "politics as usual"! On the other hand, I do find it distressing if certain individuals use the Fairtax name to push a personal agenda. |
Townie
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 7:07 pm: | |
Nilmeister,
Thanks! You made me laugh! Which TC member do you think I am? Which one am I am married to? I don't know how many members of the TC are married, but you may have given roughly 10 other people a laugh, too. When my spouse gets home, we'll pass a few town resolutions to celebrate our election!
As long as Fairtax lets itself be a vehicle for circulating unbecoming innuendo and unrealistic agendas, do they really think the people of Maplewood by and large want what they are offering? I think not. And I stand by what I said: Fairtax is exploiting people's fears about losing their homes and paying their bills for their own purposes. They've not been constructive, as the ugly letter that begins this thread shows. (Now watch them say they weren't responsible for that either and it doesn't say anything anyone could possibly construe as ugly.) |
Fairtax01
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 7:14 pm: | |
Ffof- for the record -- we are non-political.
(Bacata) If anyone has been using this tax reval confusion to push their own political agenda that's reprehensible and FairTax is not involoved. |
Townie
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 7:24 pm: | |
Bacata,
I have heard around town that Fairtax gets money from Essex County Republicans and that some of the people use their e-mail list to push a tax agenda to reduce the school budget and to replace the TC. Fairtax itself seems to be saying in this thread it can't control who uses its e-mail list, although some of the people who sent me anti-tax agenda e-mails seemed quite closely associated with Fairtax at the town meetings. It would just be simpler if Fairtax would say who they are and who speaks for them, if other people used their e-mail list, we wouldn't have wait for the disclaimers from Fairtax.
I think there is no question that Republicans are thinking they smell an opportunity to replace the Democrats on the TC with Republicans. Whether the town, which has just gotten a terrible education in what Republican leadership has done to this state and this town will be inclined to listen, I don't know.
I notice above that Fairtax says that they couldn't agree more with Ffof -- who seems to be roundly calling for forgetting about nitpicking over this reassessment and focusing on changing tax law in Trenton. And Fairtax wonders why I think they contradict themselves and are confused.
Yoo-hoo, Fairtax: Are you for or against nitpicking over this reassessment? Have an agenda for changing state property tax law? I said you demonstrated a worrisome lack of knowledge about all that's going on because you've called for a postponement of this year's revaluation. (Whatever happened to "reject and redo!"?) |
Fairtax01
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 7:37 pm: | |
Townie - you didn't answer my question, what have you EVER read from FairTax that contradicts that we are for fairness for everyone in town? |
Eliz
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 7:41 pm: | |
If Fairtax is a legit committee then surely they have some sort of leadership structure? i.e. Chief Fairtax, Asst to the Fairtax Honchos, Guardian of the Fairtax email list, Sender of the Fairtax disclaimers, and so on - why not just sign the letter to the TC with a proper name? Why not publicize the official Fairtax speakers??? Yes some people got up and spoke on behalf of Fairtax and then we heard after the first meeting that well in fact some people just used the Fairtax name and so on and so on. |
Fairtax01
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 7:55 pm: | |
Townie - I should have said, "I'm for the fair assessment but the bigger problem is that property taxes are too high in NJ and the income tax is too low and that's (one of) the Trenton issue(s)"
What are you talking about -- money from Republicans??? I'm sorry, I think you're making this stuff up. What money? I don't believe you heard this from anyone. I don't know what your bias is, but you never heard anything from us trying to "push a tax agenda". I haven't heard anything about a Republican plan to replace the Democratic Township Committee.
You received one e-mail from another source because we decided early on not to "blind copy" our mailing list and someone used the list. We decided to not blind copy because we wanted to be open and not have a "secret list". We asked people not to write to our e-mail list and they stopped - weeks ago. |
Fairtax01
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 7:58 pm: | |
The letter to the News Record has FairTax's names on it - for the purposes of this board however - I'll tell you mine if you tell me yours Townie. |
Golden
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2001 - 9:01 pm: | |
Townie
Are you saying that the County Republican Party is funding Fairtax for political purposes in order to embarrass the TC?
Where did this originate? |
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