| Author |
Message |
    
Nakaille
| | Posted on Sunday, February 4, 2001 - 3:51 pm: |     |
Bobk: I don't use the schools yet and haven't for the 9 years I've been here. And because Maplewood doesn't yet have full-day kindergarden like Montclair, Madison, and many other comparable towns, I won't be using them for another full year and a half. I'll continue to pay tuition to a school in Newark, where I work. I've never used the fire department, thank goodness, or the first aid squad. I have called the police a time or two and I use the library faithfully. How would you suggest charging me for these services? And you, do you drive on the streets? Are you glad the police are available when or if you need them? I am. You say you're not a flat-tax advocate so I really don't understand your argument here.
While I heartily agree with you that using property taxes to pay for schools is inherently insane, that's what we're stuck with for now. I will join you in lobbying elected State officials if you are sincere in wanting to change that funding mechanism.
I am paying my fair share and more as it is defined under municipal, county and state law. Enough is enough. If some minority of Maplewood taxpayers (and it really is a minority despite the high decibels) somehow convince the TC to throw out or postpone the reval I will personally volunteer to help organize my neighbors who have been shown to be overpaying. And we will win in court. And everyone in town will end up paying for something that is completely unnecessary. Please, everyone, don't push us in this direction. It is not what we want but we will not allow this injustice to continue. This is in no way a threat. Just a civilized response to an injustice.
Aruba: I know I have been overpaying from the start because when I began looking in Maplewood 10 years ago I was shown no less than 50 houses in my price range, and they were all on the same side of town. I had asked to see everything below a certain figure and I was shown everything in the multiple listings. Now, there certainly are homes in other parts of the town that are no bigger in square footage and property size than mine. So why was I not shown any of those? Because their values had already far outstripped the values on the Hilton/Orchard side of town.
Bacata |
Nakaille
| | Posted on Sunday, February 4, 2001 - 3:54 pm: | |
Sorry, Aruba: My last paragraph should have been directed to LisaT on the above thread.
Bacata |
Townie
| | Posted on Sunday, February 4, 2001 - 4:37 pm: | |
Bobk,
I can imagine for a downtown Manhattan commuter the Midtown isn't a plus. When I go there, I usually take the ferry. But I think enough folk are headed Midtown every day to continue to make Maplewood an attractive buy, espcially if they feel as we do, that Milburn isn't the right cultural fit. |
Interalia
| | Posted on Sunday, February 4, 2001 - 8:00 pm: | |
"...changing economic conditions". Maplewood was reassessed at the peak of the market. The NASDAQ has dropped 50%, unemployment is at a high, Greenspan in lowering interest rates twice a month to save a failing economy. The town is being torn apart by an revaluation that no longer is valid. To apply it negates the very purpose it was performed for in the first place....FAIRNESS. A redo would be justified if only because of the tremendous change in the economy; i.e., disposable income. |
Townie
| | Posted on Sunday, February 4, 2001 - 9:52 pm: | |
But won't the people who've been overassessed need disposible income?
I think "failing economy" is a rather extreme description. If Alan Greenspan called it that, people would be jumping out of windows! Even in Milburn the worst they worried about was a softening market.
A redo would cost money too, and may very well produce the same assessments. If you look at the prices in today's real estate section, people are putting houses on the market with pretty robust price tags. |
Sac
| | Posted on Sunday, February 4, 2001 - 10:17 pm: | |
Nakaille - re lack of full day Kindergarten - if you can pick up by 6:00 PM you should consider the After School Program's Kindergarten program run at the Civic House in Maplewood, right near the train station. It is a great program for the kids and supplements the AM Kindergarten program in the schools very well. My older child attended 4 years ago and I have a Kindergartener in it this year. Bus service from each of the SO/M Elementary schools is provided. If you have questions, feel free to email me at sac07040@yahoo.com. |
Aruba18
| | Posted on Monday, February 5, 2001 - 6:25 am: | |
Townie- You are right - if you look in the paper there are robust price tags in the real estate section. However, most of those homes will not sell for the asking (inflated) price, and buyers know it. Where there were bidding wars a year ago, people are now lowering the prices substantially for a quick sell.And if the reval sticks, people will never sell their homes for the CV price, because you can go five minutes away to Millburn/Short Hills and buy for less and have a top school system. |
Townie
| | Posted on Monday, February 5, 2001 - 8:32 am: | |
I disagree with your analysis, Aruba in this respect in particular: Many people, especially people without children or those intending to send their kids to private school, don't want to live in Millburn/Short Hills because it lacks diversity. And house prices there are very expensive. Unless you're made of money, houses are smaller in Millburn, and the affordable ones, comparable to Maplewood, are on busy streets. Not as many neighborhoods are "walk to train."
I don't expect there to continue to be bidding wars, but I also don't expect the R.E. market in Maplewood to collapse. I think it will cease to be a seller's market, but it will remain true that comparable to everything else available in the commute-to-Manhattan R.E. market, Maplewood is going to remain a strong draw, and even with a slower economy.
But that's pure crystal ball gazing. Any number of things can affect a housing market, but I think it will be a real drag if the national or regional economy market downturns and people don't get their houses sold in a week or two anymore that everybody thinks: It was the reval! |
Jfb
| | Posted on Monday, February 5, 2001 - 9:00 am: | |
Townie,
I hope your prediction is true. I'm not sure if I follow the "diversity first" theme too much.
Parents will pick the best school for their children that they can afford.
Maplewood already had a reputation for the highest taxes around. Now, after the reval, it will become infamous like Montclair.
Prices will drop significantly and their will be ample stock to choose from.
Already prices have dropped about ten to fifteen percent from last summer due to a softening economy. I'm sure when the assessments kick in they will drop proportionally to the additional assessments. So, my prediction is prices at the end of this year 25% lower than the previous year.
Time to sell if you want to cash out. |
Melidere
| | Posted on Monday, February 5, 2001 - 9:37 am: | |
jfb,
i disagree with your analysis. People have been predicting the imminent demise of this town every since it began it's march towards what you call the 'diversity first' theme.
The last 20 years have proven that there is a very strong demand in the metropolitan area for a community like ours, so much so that some of you are actually suggesting that you can buy houses cheaper in milburn.
that's evidence of very strong demand, and few communities exist to meet that need.
If you want to see where the bitterness in this debate comes from, take a look at your old assessment and look at the prices people were willing to sell for when we started this march.
The average increase in prices in this town is 4 times that assessment by any measure, a 7% return on value and a 13% compounded return on equity (assuming a 20% downpayment.) People who sold out of fear at that point left a lot of money on the table.
|
Overtaxdalready
| | Posted on Monday, February 5, 2001 - 9:39 am: | |
I agree JFB. If people can afford Millburn/Short Hills I have a hard time believing that many of them wouldn't live there because it "lacks diversity". I'm sure some would, but most wouldn't. |
Njjoseph
| | Posted on Monday, February 5, 2001 - 9:40 am: | |
Townie, to answer an earlier question: my finished basement is 420 sq. ft., at $3.11/sq. ft. + 279 + * 1.30 multiplier, giving 2061. Then multiply 2061 * 2.98 (CCF) * .7272 (depreciation) = 4466.30 for the additional value of a finished basement. Mulitply it by 2.75% for the taxes, and I pay $122.82/year in taxes for the finished basement. |
Njjoseph
| | Posted on Monday, February 5, 2001 - 9:44 am: | |
Also, on sale prices and bidding wars: I had a need to speak to my real estate agent, who told me that things had slowed down for the holidays, but were getting quite crazy again. What a surprise (did anyone think selling near the end of December/beginning of January would fetch the best price?).
Rest assured that there are still bidding wars, even on houses on the west side of town. |
Melidere
| | Posted on Monday, February 5, 2001 - 9:58 am: | |
overtaxedalready,
i honestly am deeply respectful of your opinion, and want to respectfully point out that the idea that the only people who buy in maplewood are the ones who can't afford short hills/milburn is deeply troubling.
To build a town that is diverse and welcoming to all kinds of people from all walks of life requires a committment that is deeper than that.
i, personally, have invested every cent i've ever made back into this town, and while i'm thrilled that there is financial gain for the people committed to this community, that wasn't the point.
The point was a place where we could raise our children in an environment we could be proud of.
Some people spend their money on bmw's and designer clothes. I think it is a very rational decision for some of us to choose to spend it on our lives, our kids, and our schools.
Some of us think our kids are getting a BETTER education than the kids in milburn. |
Shakespeare
| | Posted on Monday, February 5, 2001 - 10:06 am: | |
Those who would purposely exclude our towns on the basis of our diversity are, however, those I am all too happy to see move farther away. |
Overtaxdalready
| | Posted on Monday, February 5, 2001 - 10:17 am: | |
Thanks for the response. I have lived here for 15 years so obviously I like Maplewood very much. And I didn't say (or mean to imply) that people only buy in Maplewood because they can't afford Short Hills/Millburn. I said I don't buy into the opinion that many people turn down Short Hills/Millburn and choose Maplewood because Short Hills/Millburn "lacks diversity" (although I'm sure a few do). They might choose Maplewood because they like the houses they've seen better, or they like the street and neighborhood better, or they think the schools are better. That's all I was trying to say. |
Melidere
| | Posted on Monday, February 5, 2001 - 10:44 am: | |
i hear you.
i respectfully disagree.
i have heard numerous people tell me that the reason they moved here was BECAUSE of the diversity.
A lot of people are not comfortable going to college in an integrated environment and then working in an integrated environment and then coming home to some lily-white stepfordlike conclave of intolerance.
They want the lawns, not the baggage. |
Melidere
| | Posted on Monday, February 5, 2001 - 10:52 am: | |
i'm not suggesting that milburn is any of the above (grins, some of my best friends live in milburn)....but i think there is that perception.
It's calming to some, offensive to others...but that is what makes a market. |
Eliz
| | Posted on Monday, February 5, 2001 - 10:55 am: | |
Exactly Melidere - diversity is the number one reason we chose to move here (it didn't hurt that the village was charming and the homes beautiful). We didn't/wouldn't consider Millburn/Short Hills - maybe Montclair but it's not like the taxes are any better there and frankly we found Maplewood more appealing.
Why do you think this town attracts so many gay families, interracial families, artists, writers etc? It's why Maplewood will continue to be sought after.
As for the RE market - the house across the street from me sold a week ago on the first day over asking. |
Jfb
| | Posted on Monday, February 5, 2001 - 10:58 am: | |
Melidere,
I'm not predicting the demise of Maplewood. Only to say that the house that sold for 550K last year may sell for 450K this year.
Certainly not a disaster for those of us who bought much less than that.
As far as "diversity", say what you will, when it comes to schools people choose the best they can get for their children, diversity or no diversity.
Also, I don't make the distinction of classifying
people as you on this board are so fond of doing. People are people no matter what their skin color or culture. I have friends and business associates from all walks of life.
If you child is in the higer track at Columbia, they will enjoy a great education.
Those vast numbers in the middle track will have a tougher time of it. If my child were in the middle track at Colombia I would be concerned.
The schools should stay away from the "PC" ideology and teach the basics and teach them well.
Being "PC" is not something you put on your resume. Strong writing skills and education is. |
Wilbur
| | Posted on Monday, February 5, 2001 - 1:07 pm: | |
I have to say, as a three-year resident of town who moved here to enjoy the "relaxed" culture of Maplewood, vs. what we perceived to be the competitive, my-car-is-flashier-than-yours culture of Short Hills, I agree with Jfb to some extent. For us, this represents a change in thinking.
We can afford to live in either Maplewood or Millburn/Short Hills. If we lived there, we'd have a smaller house than we do here, but it would be fine. Originally, however, we chose to come here because we liked the atmosphere so much. Both my husband and I grew up in lilywhite suburbs with very competitive high schools similar to Millburn HS. Both us knew a great many stereotypical rich kids who drove BMWs and skied in Switzerland over winter break, and that culture alienated us throughout our formative years. As adults, we turned our backs on that ethic in favor of one that's more diverse, slightly less materialistic, more liberal in many ways...probably as a result of living in NYC for years. We wanted our daughter to grow up in that environment, too. However, we also want her to have the best schools possible.
Now that she's a toddler, reality is setting in--that of skyhigh taxes and so-so schools. We always told ourselves that our kid would be fine in this school system, because she's motivated to learn and we believe much of one's success in school comes from their motivation, their home environment, etc. Test scores don't mean so much to us. However, we respectfully object to paying what we will soon be paying in taxes -- about $18,000 a year -- to send her to schools that are quite frankly mediocre. The proposed elimination of the music program in 4th and 5th grades is the last straw, and we fear it's the tip of the iceberg. So now we are working with a five-to-seven year plan instead of a 25-year plan.... that is, we will decamp to Millburn in that time frame, rather than stick around here indefinitely. I hate to admit it, but we're going to have to sell out. I'd rather our daughter learn to stick up for her values in Millburn than be deprived of basic things like in-school music instruction or whatever else is eliminated along the way to save a few bucks. We are firm believers in public schools, so staying here and sending her to private school isn't an option (and would be financially burdensome anyway). It will be with a great deal of sadness that we leave this town, and we still hope we don't. But given the tax situation, that's our outlook at this point. Just my two cents' worth. |
Overtaxdalready
| | Posted on Monday, February 5, 2001 - 1:18 pm: | |
Wilber, your post summarizes our feelings too. We just can't justify paying $15,000-$16,000 in property taxes to live here. But I think if we move it will be a little further west, out of Essex county. |
Jem
| | Posted on Monday, February 5, 2001 - 1:50 pm: | |
Wilbur,
The claims of this district being "mediocre" come generally from people whose kids are not in our schools, from people who measure "success" strictly by the numbers, or, most interestingly, from people who have no kids at all. It gets tiresome for all of us to have to repeat, but it is a fact that the majority of caring, involved parents who have kids in our schools feel that their kids are getting an excellent education.
Yes, there's room for improvement, and the struggle that we're forced into because of our mostly non-commercial tax base is a tough one, but I would not trade the experience and education that my child has had at Columbia for what he might have gotten had we chosen to live in Millburn or in some other less diverse town.
Besides, no one can say at this point that instrumental music will be eliminated when the final shape of things is determined for next year, so I would not base my life plan on such things if I were you, Wilbur. If you love it here, I would advise you to keep an open mind. |
Mtierney
| | Posted on Monday, February 5, 2001 - 2:05 pm: | |
I can almost guarantee that music will make a magical comeback! That's the way the BOE works! It's been doing this for many years. Cut the programs that really hit home for parents and, like magic, those programs get put back. Of course, the price for this response is giving the BOE the money it says it needs to operate. It is all a planned attack on the taxpayers to cough up even more - even in this season of reval pain. The BOE shows no mercy. |
Jfb
| | Posted on Monday, February 5, 2001 - 2:17 pm: | |
Why should the BOE care about the taxpayers? It's against human nature and their self interest.
Why not cut raises this year instead of the music program? People are getting layed off, bonuses are nil, so why not? Let them share in the pain.
No reason to cut music though..
Better to cut football in my opinion |
Ros
| | Posted on Monday, February 5, 2001 - 3:33 pm: | |
See post in "Instrumental Music..." thread for update on the program |
Nilmiester
| | Posted on Monday, February 5, 2001 - 5:50 pm: | |
The BOE is threatening to cut the music program because they KNOW it will have Maplewood parents up in arms. Cutting Math wouldn't get such an uproar. Then they can say "we can't afford it" and we will give them more money than we already do, that they don't manage properly, and our taxes will go up even more. |
Melidere
| | Posted on Monday, February 5, 2001 - 8:18 pm: | |
Wilbur,
i don't envy you your choices. I think that the hardest choices we make as parents are the ones we make while they are toddlers and just starting school. We want so much for everything to be perfect, for them to have everything the world can offer...and if you can afford it, (which we certainly could) it seems almost criminal to deny them anything less than the best.
It took us exactly one year in one of the fanciest private schools in the area to get a good handle on what the 'best' was and was NOT for us.
What gets missed in the forest of test scores is all the other things kids learn. In a short, little year of kindergarten mine had learned more than i ever wanted him to know about designer labels and competition. Already, in kindergarten, the fact that some kids read a little faster than he did...he was a 'failure' at reading...and already, in kindergarten, i found out that if he was going to get the mathematics that he was clearly ready for i was going to have to supplement their work.
At 14k+ a year, i was going to have to supplement their work.
In Clinton school he discovered he LOVED reading when it wasn't a competitive sport and i discovered to my pleasant surprise that he was getting a lot more supplemental work in math. He scores well, he loves his friends, he is very happy, and i don't run into many conflicts in our values. 7 years later he still doesn't talk about designer stuff, he never whines for the latest toy, he's nonviolent and i rest easy that he doesn't hear bigotry at home, at school or in his friends homes.
I think that is the best i could possibly hope for him.
The rest is whatever he makes of it. |
Lisat
| | Posted on Monday, February 5, 2001 - 10:01 pm: | |
Melidere,
Can you tell us which private school it was? |
Melidere
| | Posted on Monday, February 5, 2001 - 11:10 pm: | |
i'd rather not...i don't think they are any worse than any of the others. Maybe better.
I'm not trying to disparage the school...i'm just trying to make the point that when our children are toddlers...and we are trying to make decisions...we have no way of taking their unique little personalities into account. We try to measure what we are 'putting in' to them like a product, when they are just little people.
We send our kids to school to learn how to learn, and if we are lucky, to learn to love learning..because the world moves so fast that you have to learn for the rest of your life.
If you are going to measure a school by it's test scores and the number of kids who get into ivy league colleges...well then the pressure is on the school to make that happen. It's on the parents to make sure that happens. No one wants *joey* to be the only kid in his class going to a state school. There is an inevitable competitiveness to that that i personally feel is counter-productive to the process of educating children.
(i wish i could take that back..but this is an edit...i personally feel that it was counter-productive to the process of educating MY child. Every child is so different. _
imho |
Bobk
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 6, 2001 - 5:06 am: | |
A couple of points:
1/ If your spawn is in the top track at Columbia, taking AP courses, etc. the education is very good. If your child isn't on that track, there have to be some questions. However, the pressure to stay in the top track serves to motivate the little darlings.
2/ My son is a freshman at Columbia and doing fairly well. However, almost one third of his friends are going to private schools, after graduating from MMS. This is a trend that has been going on for quite some time now. If the schools don't improve this is going to be more common. My daughter is a senior and has been accepted at a top ten university. Hate to brag, but.....
3/ We came to Maplewood because we liked the real world flavor. Not everyone is a blue eyed blond preppy working at Solomen Brothers. Since we ended up becoming an inter-racial family this is fine for us.
4/ There is going to be a lot of pressure to cut municipal and school services. When a 1,000 families or so are paying in excess of $15,000 a year in taxes this is the inevitable result. Especially when many of them have opted out of the school system.
5/ The exodus has begun. We already have two houses on our block up for sale, at least partially because of the new taxes.
6/ It is going to be very hard to maintain the harmony of our community with some people paying $2,000 in taxes and others nearly $20,000. This is not a recipe for harmony.
7/ Fairtax provided a lot of information when the Reval issue began to heat up. For this they should be complimented. However, probably by mistake, the anonymous nature of the organization sometimes seems sinister. Lydia has been trying to correct this.
8/ We don't want to live in Milburn, or Chatham, etc. It is just too boring!!!! Also, your kids get a cockeyed view of the world. "You mean you didn't get a BMW for your 17th birthday?"
I am the first to admit that this is kind of disjointed. I think a reval was justified, but I don't like the methodolody used or the disparity in the new assessments between various parts of town. This is a recipe for disaster. |
Ffof
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 6, 2001 - 9:02 am: | |
Bobk - You are right on the mark. |
|
Closed: New threads not accepted on this page