| Author |
Message |
    
Townie
| | Posted on Saturday, February 3, 2001 - 7:27 pm: |     |
Mem, I agree.
Ffof, I've just gotten increasingly angry at the people who associate themselves with Fairtax, their refusal to take responsibility for their communication (which is often vile), their evasive answers, and their excuses about not knowing who's responsible for what. That Lydia didn't even bother to read what I'd written on these boards before mistakenly singling me out as someone who was asking them questions I wasn't asking, and then after making every conceivable excuse (as has everybody else associated with Fairtax on these boards) about the junk they put into circulation, made me want to offer her the chance to say that at least she, if not Fairtax as a whole, was reconsidering an "in their faces" strategy. She has.
Lydia, I've been dealing with the revaluation among other things and didn't find time to deal with Fairtax's e-mail. And now I'm glad I didn't because it gave me a window into Fairtax. I'm going to respectfully decline your invitation to call because I don't wish to be known by name to anyone associated with Fairtax. Sometime ago, I queried Fairtax01 and received a response, not from Fairtax01, but JL Nathenson. I thought nothing of it at the time; my question was merely answered. Since then, however, JLNathenson has taken to insulting me and calling me a coward, lacking guts and integrity, etc. on these boards. I'm concerned that any call I would make to Fairtax would reveal my identity to people who have been ruder to me than anyone else I've encountered in Maplewood to date, including Certified. I'm sure you can understand.
If you want to answer anything I've said, do so anytime. |
Melidere
| | Posted on Saturday, February 3, 2001 - 7:31 pm: | |
mem,
no they aren't. |
Nilmiester
| | Posted on Saturday, February 3, 2001 - 7:52 pm: | |
Melidere:
Yes, they are. And the message has been beaten to death. |
Aruba18
| | Posted on Saturday, February 3, 2001 - 7:56 pm: | |
Townie-
I think that you took the sentence about "getting in their faces" a little too seriously. I took it to mean that it provides us with an opportunity to sit down and talk to them, one on one, and from past experience on previous issues, I can tell you that it can make a BIG difference. I was born and raised in this town, and I'm still here, and there was a nasty reaction to a reval done back in the late '60's or early '70's ( I was still in grade school,but my father was on the TC and I remember the letters he got, some threatening to destroy our home, etc.) I asked him about it recently, and to the best of his recollection, the town rolled back the reassessment for an extra year and got a chance to meet with, and sometimes re-evaluate, everyone's home over the period of the extra year. It made the overwhelming majority feel much better, and I believe that would be the case here, too. I disagree with you when you say that Fairtax divided the town-on the contrary, the TC came up with the labels of "east" and "west", which we never had before, and that divided and angered people before Fairtax came along. I believe that if it were not for Lydia and all of the other members of Fairtax (myself included), that the TC would just have gone on with their business and paid little, if any, attention to the taxpayers. Lydia's group motivated people who were too complacent, and it's true that everyone doesn't always agree. But that's what makes it work, because every member has different ideas to present, and that makes us all truly think about the issue.
Debbie |
Alidah
| | Posted on Saturday, February 3, 2001 - 8:43 pm: | |
I think Fairtax has done a great job of getting the TC to respond to the concerns of some citizens of Maplewood. I thank people like Lydia Lacey who take the time and effort to act on their convictions. |
Mwood
| | Posted on Saturday, February 3, 2001 - 8:59 pm: | |
Aruba 18/Debbie -On another thread you ask Jerry Ryan about your home's evaluation and from the discussion it seems that you haven't even visited Town Hall to get your property card with revised numbers. This just underscores what Townie has been saying - instead of spewing rhetoric on this board why not take care of your own business?
If you are on this Fairtax committee you should be better informed. |
Fairtax01
| | Posted on Saturday, February 3, 2001 - 10:00 pm: | |
Townie - I did read the boards. I was skipping back and forth between this thread and others where you contributed comments regarding FairTax. (You gotta admit you post a lot!) I was responding to the general spirit of your previous postings regarding FairTax.
I'm disappointed that you consider our/my efforts profoundly offensive and won't discuss anything on the telephone. I believe that we must directly discuss confront serious grievances to make progress. Otherwise our comments back and forth on this board are just gossip.
I'd like to offer that I think FairTax has been a constructive force in the reval effort - we were a few determined people with a sound cause and we discovered that many people agreed with our cause. It's been a rocky road for all of us. Our group efforts got important dialogue and action going between the TC, the tax assessor, and the people of Maplewood.
See you at the TC meeting on Tuesday. We need to hear from all sides.
Lydia Lacey |
Townie
| | Posted on Sunday, February 4, 2001 - 9:31 am: | |
Lydia,
I feel these message boards are a very good way to discuss public issues, and my disagreements with Fairtax and the offensive letter it posted on these boards are public disagreements, not private ones.
When "Citizen" posted that letter on the night of Tuesday, Jan 30, he or she said that the letter had been faxed to The News Record. I immediately sat down to compose my own letter to the News Record, then realized I would never make the Record's deadline. (Deliberate timing?) I posted my reactions to that letter on these boards because I didn't want an entire week to go by with that letter receiving no response.
I don't think the process of coming to understand the revaluation is best served by confrontation. This is not a matter of "sides." Fairtax keeps trying to make this personal. It's not.
I understand that emotions are running high in the town and that everybody has said things they regret. But in contrast to Lydia, I'd like to offer that people concerned about their reassessment and revaluation would do better not to rely on Fairtax for unbiased or accurate answers. The postings on these boards, from TC members and other concerned citizens, have been much more informative and trustworthy than anything I've seen from Fairtax, which keeps changing its message. My experiences with Certified were merely bureacratically chilly; when an error in my assessment was pointed out to them, they and the assessor corrected it. My experiences with Fairtax have been lousy, and I think if these "few determined people" keep going in the same direction, the values I care most about in this town (not my property values) will suffer and a few people will wind up costing all of us much more money. Much more.
I appreciate your friendly tone, Lydia. Perhaps you could have a dialog with others in Fairtax about that.
And check out the boards more often. Fairtax foolishly keeps insisting all sorts of questions haven't been answered. They've been answered ad nauseum here. (Sorry Mem for the length.) |
Melidere
| | Posted on Sunday, February 4, 2001 - 10:40 am: | |
nil,
there is room in this world for ONE PLACE where everything does not have to be reduced to a sound bite and people can complete their thoughts.
if you don't want to read it, skip it. |
Dytunck
| | Posted on Sunday, February 4, 2001 - 10:55 am: | |
To Melidere and Townie:
When "Citizen" posted that letter on the night of Tuesday, Jan 30, he or she said that the letter had been faxed to The News Record. I posted my reactions to that letter on these boards because I didn't want an entire week to go by with that letter receiving no response. BLAH BLAH BLAH
[SPAM and childish comments deleted ... ed.]
Lydia, Townie is not your enemy. And neither are all from the one in the Fairtax letter. (I see my e-mailed version is signed by the Maplewood Fair Taxation committee and others, but not you.) I would prefer Fairtax adopted your neighborly attitude. WHO IS TOWNIE?
I don't want bullies dictating terms to the town's elected officials. I don't want the civic culture to become what Fairtax exudes in that letter. sounded like a bully in this posting. And yes, I've received e-mails signed by you. But what I've also found in my e-mail inbox is this from Fairtax01: I WISH CLINTON'S STAFFERS WOULD HAVE REMOVED TOWNIE'S KEYBOARD
"Lydia,
In addition to notifying everyone about the Township Committee Meeting on Tuesday night at 8:00, also let people know that Jerry Ryan and Ellen Davenport are scheduled to hold office hours that evening between 6:30 and 7:30. This is a good opportunity to get in their faces."
You said you passed along such e-mails to me because you thought they might be "helpful." YOU SAID, THEN I SAID, THEN I MEANT WHAT MELIDERE SAID, BUT FAIRTAX SAID SOMETHING ELSE...They aren't. Not to me or Maplewood. I think Fairtax has been divisive, but most especially so with the letter it most recently circulated and the insulting language on these boards from those who have declared themselves associated with Fairtax.
AND THAT'S ALL I HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THAT. |
Jmadison
| | Posted on Sunday, February 4, 2001 - 11:18 am: | |
BRAVO, DYTUNCK! |
Rheims
| | Posted on Sunday, February 4, 2001 - 11:51 am: | |
Lydia
Thanks for being brave enough to identify yourself if not as a leader of the strangely headless FairTax, then as a figure to be dealt with personally.
I guess my follow up question is, Who is Citizen? How can your organization be effective when some members are sending out letters for the organization without the approval of others? How can you keep your message consistent? Perhaps you do need a leader. |
Melidere
| | Posted on Sunday, February 4, 2001 - 12:20 pm: | |
Yes, D, i see your point. It must be very disconcerting to have someone articulately, intelligently and persistantly arguing a point of view with which you obviously disagree.
and i don't see evidence of a single instance of edit/copy, edit/paste. |
Townie
| | Posted on Sunday, February 4, 2001 - 12:22 pm: | |
Dytunck,
Why are you so polite to TC members on other threads and spamming here? |
Jmadison
| | Posted on Sunday, February 4, 2001 - 1:24 pm: | |
Dytunck: forget it. the humorless, monomaniacal logorrhea from the Townie/Melidere persona, I mean. You, on the other hand, are funny, and I'm not even a Fair Tax supporter. |
Melidere
| | Posted on Sunday, February 4, 2001 - 1:35 pm: | |
just in case it has escaped your notice..i've not said a single word about fairtax. i really don't have an opinion on what they are doing one way or another.
people have a right to express their opinions is the only thing i've said about it at all, and this is the right medium to talk things through in more depth than is allowed on either television or in person.
We can think things through in this medium, and read them (or not) at our leisure.
Why would you want to stifle that? I don't agree with many of fringe's conclusions, but i think that sometimes he does provide a valuable source of information. |
Euclidean
| | Posted on Sunday, February 4, 2001 - 1:35 pm: | |
Can we please take the energy being expended on this message board and put it into letters (or email) to our elected officials at the state and national levels. I notice that in Washington, D.C., we are apparently so rich that we can all do with a tax cut.
And perhaps a few letters to the Star Ledger would help as well. I notice that the Star Ledger periodically puts a focus on real issues.
Here are some problems with property taxes:
1. Property taxes pit neighbor against neighbor.
2. Propert taxes are unfair because all of us are paying real money on assets where the true value can never be known until you actually sell the house.
3. Property taxes favor those towns fortunate to end up with the Home Depots and malls. Springfield must make a fortune on Home Depot, but I'll bet most of the customers come from Essex County. Livingston makes a fortune on their mall but many of the customers come from Newark, Irvington, the Oranges and Maplewood.
4. Property taxes probably contribute to suburban sprawl as people with the means leave developed areas in search of new communities with new schools and fewer issues.
5. Property taxes probably make it harder for areas such as Newark to recover economically because in addition to image problems, any company willing to locate in Newark has to face the reality of high taxes.
I could think of more reasons, but this is a start. |
Dytunck
| | Posted on Sunday, February 4, 2001 - 1:41 pm: | |
Mel, Darling:
I don't think you did get my point. It's not that you're not intelligent or articulate. Just that some posters (esp. Townie) are VERBOSE. I was trying to make my point with a little tongue in cheek. ;) Trying to be funny. You know, like your Arnold Horschak impressions.
Townie: I see no reason to be rude to the TC. Or anyone else.
Jmadison: Thanks for GETTING the joke. Since the Bulletin Board Police have seen fit to edit my post, I doubt the message will make any sense to anyone else.
Dytunck
PS: BB Police, good job keeping those "childish comments" off the board. |
Fairtax01
| | Posted on Sunday, February 4, 2001 - 1:42 pm: | |
Rheims - I posted that letter because this message board didn't know who FairTax was/is - Names were announced at the TC meeting, were published in the NYTimes, Ch.7 - ABC, the Star Ledger and the News Record...it hasn't been secret. If you want to know more about FairTax get on our mailing list -- that's the most effective way for us to distribute info - there are always names and often home phone numbers where you can reach members. One reason I posted my name here was I figured everyone knew me already!
This board reaches a specialized group, it often doesn't make work for me (time-management-wise) to concentrate on answering specific questions here when I can be more effective having real conversations with people.
I don't think of the TC as enemies - they deserve our respect for taking on the often thankless job of public service. If you were on our mailing list you would know that I've said time and time again that this is NOT a neighbor-against-neighbor issue. |
Townie
| | Posted on Sunday, February 4, 2001 - 4:29 pm: | |
Dytunck,
It's true I didn't get your humor but it's also true I didn't expect to come back and find it deleted. ;-(
If you're humorously crusading against verbosity, there's surely a shorter way to do it. After all, brevity, as WS said, is the soul of wit. ;-]
I'm beginning to think I should change my board handle to LightningRod.
Anyway, I'd like to be able to discuss complicated things with other posters without having to answer to the anti-verbosity police. |
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