| Author |
Message |
    
Dytunck
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 6:03 pm: |     |
Mlj,
There's um... the aqueduct. |
Gerardryan
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 10:05 pm: | |
Not to drag this on, but...
"Fairtax" IS NOT "MaplewoodTax", got it, Citizen, thank you.
"Fairtax" IS "Maplewood Fairtax Committee", right FFOF?
"Fairtax" IS NOT the "Maplewood Fair Taxation Committee". Right? |
Euclidean
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 10:14 pm: | |
At least some of these groups don't use/understand the bcc: option in email. I am thinking of selling the addresses and giving the proceeds to the TC. |
Mem
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2001 - 10:22 pm: | |
"Who stole the cork to my lunch"
WC Fields
(sorry bacata - I just had to) |
Nakaille
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 1:08 am: | |
I don't blame you, Mem! Sheeesh! Do we have enough grassroots committees on the subject? How about FarTax, or FairlyTaxed or FlatTax or FreedomFromTax or FrigginTax or FrightenedTax or ???? More suggestions welcome!
Bacata |
Ihateice
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 6:29 am: | |
Sick of hearing about tax???? |
Townie
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 10:34 am: | |
Wasn't it during the French Revolution that people called themselves "Citizen" and started the Committee for Public Safety (or was it the Finished Basement Police?) and knitted scarves showing all the houses they got reassessed, which they sold instead of town quilts -- oh, no. I'm getting that mixed up with something else I saw on a episode of The Sopranos. Sorry. Time to get a life. |
Nakaille
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 11:44 am: | |
Townie: I think the technical term for the above is Flight of Ideas. Glad you still have your sense of humor!
Bacata |
Townie
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 2:06 pm: | |
Bacata,
Barely. Whoever knew talking about taxes could be so much fun.8<( |
Fairtax01
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 4:19 pm: | |
Jerry - Fairtax is the Maplewood Fair Taxation Committee. We're not the new (6 day old?) group with a similar name. We're still non-partisan, we are concerned with the reval, and only the reval. We are committed to providing information which will help people navigate this dynamic and often daunting process.
Bacata, re: grassroots organizations - I would wager that if it hadn't been for the efforts of FairTax and the other neighborhood groups nobody would have been talking meaningfully about taxes until August 2001 when everyone got their retroactive tax bills with the new tax rate. |
Nakaille
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 4:56 pm: | |
Lydia - I just thought 3 or 4 was probably overkill and suspected it might be indicative of some other political agenda (not yours.) I think grassroots organizations are very important in the democratic process. They don't all (obviously) represent my interests and needs but that doesn't mean I don't respect the concept. I really was not putting your group down.
Bacata |
Townie
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 6:13 pm: | |
I don't know. When I got my first letter from Certified, I called Ed Gallante to find out what my new taxes might be and was told right away they were likely to go up $3,000 to $4,000. I spoke with my neighbors about their assessments and none of them mentioned Fairtax. I read Fairtax's flyers in the train station, but didn't take an interest in the issue until the News-Record published this confusing story about the reval, including unreliable information about Durand Road. I put myself on Fairtax's e-mail list and went to the town meeting, and met many of my neighbors there, none of whom mentioned Fairtax. I left after hearing the TC's statement, which pretty much spelled out the problem and the solution. When I went to the meeting at the school to listen to Ed Gallante, people jeered and hooted so much at those trying to give out information, I left. I've learned more on these boards about the reval, Maplewood taxes and Maplewood issues from other posters than from Fairtax.
A lot of what I've seen from Fairtax these past weeks, including its more recent map, was more in need of explanation itself than it explained anything. I'm only talking about the public organization here and its communications, not individuals.
I find it impossible to believe that people in Maplewood would have waited until August 2001 to pay attention to their new taxes. A lot of people in town really do seem at sea with this issue, but what they need are facts. I don't think Fairtax deserves a lot of credit though for clearing things up or helping things along.
Protest movements typically break up into factions. And not all grassroots movements were progressive or democratic if you look at history. We'll see how Fairtax turns out.
k. |
Ffof
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 6:25 pm: | |
Ya know Townie- you are way off base about the impact of Fairtax - whether you like the organization or not. The original deadline for the TC for submitting the assessment was Jan 12 (maybe 10th?), so if the ad hoc group (that resulted in Fairtax) hadn't showed up at the Jan 2 meeting, all assessments as they stood then would have been submitted at that time. There would have been no extensions and noone would have known about their taxes til Aug 1, 2001 when the bill arrived (retroactive to Jan 1, 2001 by the way). That's the facts, jack! |
Octofoil
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 6:37 pm: | |
Townie,
And here's one of those occasions where I disagree with you...
Speaking only for myself, I personally would have been way behind the eight-ball if not for the Fairtax info and calling my attention to the situation.
But then, while I value their aims and function as an organization, I don't agree with all of their positions either! |
Townie
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 6:55 pm: | |
Ffof,
I appreciate the elaboration, but I called Ed Gallante when I got my first letter from Certified, which was in December. So I knew then what my taxes were approximately going to be. How many others did or didn't do what I did, I don't know, and like I said, I quit paying attention until that News-Record article in January. I've never really known, as I've often said, all that happened leading up to the first meeting I attended at Town Hall and who knew what when. I don't even know if it will ever get sorted out. I've heard more than one version. But I'm not committed to denying Fairtax's place in the history. But I have known what my taxes were likely to be since last December, and Fairtax had nothing to do with my calling the tax assessor when my new assessment arrived.
But maybe I should add my problems with Fairtax definitely have more to do with what they did following the actions taken to adjust Certified numbers than anything I'm aware of they did before. |
Winkydink
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 7:38 pm: | |
Fairtax is a committee which began with about 8 neighbors on Euclid Avenue. In fact, it was one of those neighbors who first contacted a town council member and coordinated our first meeting with the town council. This meeting was attended by about 40 citiznes, mostly from Euclid and Durand. We are the ones who EXPOSED the issues surrounding the reval.
There is nothing unscrupulous, NO underlying political agenda going on with Fairtax committee. In fact, I would like to publically (this is public, eh?) thank Lydia, who has been the backbone, indeed the founder of this "movement". She has kept us all up to date and aware of issues as they arise. Thank you Lydia for your dedication to us and the township.
Winky |
Interalia
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 8:39 pm: | |
I think there are a lot of unspoken beneficiaries of Fairtax. The organization has been a great source of information and support. I have the greatest respect and admiration for Lydia, who has diligently responded to e-mail and disseminated information (and reminders). Fairtax isn't politically motivated...it is a support group! |
Gerardryan
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 9:35 pm: | |
OK, not to keep this alive any more than it has to be, but Lydia's posting says, and I quote:
'Jerry - Fairtax is the Maplewood Fair Taxation Committee. We're not the new (6 day old?)
group with a similar name.'
The piece of literature that I got said, and I quote:
"Distributed by the Maplewood Fair Taxation Committee"
Someone (interalia?) said that this sheet was not distributed by Fairtax.... |
Townie
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 9:41 pm: | |
Interalia,
That's interesting. I was once going to describe Fairtax as a support group, but I thought everyone in it would think I was attacking them. |
Mtierney
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 9:48 pm: | |
I for one did not react negatively when I received the first letter from CV. I thought that with everyone's revals up, we just might see some tax relief!! At $11.5Gs, I though we gave enough already! When I discovered - thanks to a large degree because of the fuss created by those committees on the westside (Fairtax?) - that, instead, I'd see a $4000 plus jump, I was stunned. How could this be? That's before I learned that the middle of Maplewood has been overpaying for many years and we were in for a seesaw reval to right some wrong. What did we folks in the middle do wrong? |
Lseltzer
| | Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2001 - 10:10 pm: | |
Jerry,
Yes, it was Interalia
>>By Interalia on Tuesday, February 13, 2001 - 08:25 am:
>>The information you are referring to is not being distributed by Fairtax, but rather by another group.
I think it's important for the principals of any group like this to identify themselves. For all we know, all the groups are run by the same people.
Here's a list of names I've heard so far in this thread:
FairTax
MaplewoodTax
Maplewood Fair Taxation Committee
Maplewood Fairtax Committee
Maplewood Tax Committee |
Ihateice
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2001 - 6:16 am: | |
Fairtax
Maybe that's the way it should have been done. In every town I have lived in, the town came in, did their reval, we got our new tax bill and either we paid it or we appealed it.
Never in my life have I seen such babies and whiners. A person's taxes going up is their business and not the whole community's. This subject never should have been started. It put the people on the Eastside of town in a bad position. I'm sure they are delighted to have their taxes go down. They're not totally innocent here either. They shouldn't be crying because they were overpaying all these years. Nobody knew and if somebody did know, they should have appealed. You don't have to wait for a reval to appeal your taxes. Everyone whining and belly aching is what caused this town to divide.
Just for the record, my taxes are going up also and I appealed. If I win, that's great, if not, I'll pay my tax and live with it.
P.S. Since I am the minority on this subject, I'm waiting to be bashed to death by the people on this board.....bring it on! |
Euclidean
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2001 - 8:59 am: | |
Gerry, Can the TC appoint a Special Prosecutor to identify the membership list of Fair Tax and various copycat groups, check out allegations of Republican Party funding, etc., etc. - something along the lines of the Kenneth Starr crusade? What if there is a FairTax mole on the TC. |
Fairtax01
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2001 - 9:42 am: | |
FairTax's concern has always been that the reval was flawed but taxes would (fairly) go up for a good portion of Maplewood taxpayers. Much of our energy has been spent trying to ensure that the reval methodology is transparent and accessable.
Jerry - We are the Maplewood Fair Taxation Committee aka FairTax.
People that have been writing to me refer to the "assessment review process" as the "town appeal" Sorry for any confusion we may have contributed to by using the unofficial parlance. |
Njjoseph
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2001 - 10:04 am: | |
Townie, I think Fairtax did increase awareness of the tax situation, although I really can't say for how much. However, do I think this should have been their function? Like you, I don't think so. Each homeowner in Maplewood should have made it their individual responsibility to do what you did to clarify and question their tax estimates for 2001.
I have stated many times before on this board that I would NEVER leave my personal situation in the hands of another to resolve. So many Maplewoodians appear to be doing just that, and when they don't get the result they're looking for, they don't have anyone to blame but themselves.
Townie, you've accepted your tax bill, as have I, because we understand it and because we know that we have the power to use the process to make corrections. I don't need Fairtax or the new committee (name to be clarified!) to complain loud enough to do it for me. |
Lseltzer
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2001 - 10:17 am: | |
FairTax: If you are "The Maplewood Fair Taxation Committee" then yours was the name on the map that Jerry mentioned to start this thread.
Did you distribute the map?
If so, have you informed your members that the information on it was inaccurate?
If it's not your map, does it upset you that someone else is using your name? |
Euclidean
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2001 - 11:24 am: | |
Ihateice, I am not so sure that it is fair to label everybody who has complained about the reval, "babies and whiners". Assuming the reval was conducted flawlessly, there is still the reality that the school tax portion of some peoples' property taxes exceeds what is would cost to send their children to, say, Catholic schools. This combined with the rather depressing discussion topics on this message board regarding Columbia High School is enough to get even fairly relaxed people angry. What should we do? Support school vouchers? Organize PACs? I think the issue goes beyond a simple appeal of the valuation of our property. For this reason, I think organizations like Fair Tax are wholely appropriate and completely part of the political process. (I know, I know, Fair Tax is only looking at the reval process - I just took the liberty of extending the logic.) |
Jem
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2001 - 12:04 pm: | |
Euclidean,
What in the world are you saying? What does the cost of Catholic school (not by any stretch of the imaginination an option for lots of us, not even if it were free, not even if it offered the best teaching methods in the world!) have to do with anything?
Every adult member of every community, whether or not they use the public schools, is obligated to fund the public schools, whether by property tax or income tax, because public education is a public good. The argument that it should only be funded by those who use it is a real loser for any community, as is the movement to siphon money away from the public schools towards school vouchers and charter schools. It should, by now, be painfully obvious to all of us that there are real, and difficult constraints placed on school districts when the tax base is limited. Salaries become uncompetitive, repairs and maintenance get put off, unpleasant and unwanted choices have to be made.
What you read on this bulletin board as "depressing discussion topics" are the rantings (and I plead guilty to an occasionaly rant myself) of people who feel passionately on one side or another of the issue of the quality of our schools. Please don't dismiss our school district, particularly the high school and middle schools, based on what you read among the writings of this self-selected and relatively small group. It's always easier to bitch and moan than it is to respond to each incident of bitching and moaning, but if you've been reading for awhile, you'll always see that there are voices that speak up in support of our schools.
Please do a lot more investigation, talk to people whose kids are actually in all of the schools, not just folks who decided long ago to opt out based on what they've heard or imagined, before you go off thinking that it would be best to join or create groups that would serve to divert funds and support away from our own community's schools! |
Octofoil
| | Posted on Friday, February 16, 2001 - 12:25 pm: | |
Ihateice,
Not quite sure what your point is, but would offer the following observations...
Under normal circustances, we might have accepted the tax increases/decreases as an inevtiable part of the process and gone on about our business, as you have described. Unfortunately, there was a considerable amount of sticker shock involved this time around. Hence, considerable questioning of the appropriatness/accuracy of the whole thing.
Agree that changes in anyone's individual taxes and how they respond to changes in same is their own business. Unfortunately, because the whole system is based on a relative valuation that produces legally obligated demands on all of our future income streams, there is an element of it being everybody else's business as well. That is, ceterus paribus, I don't really care what your taxes are, nor do you really care what mine are. What we both care about is whether or not they were both determined in a fair and equitable manner.
Had the reval produced tax changes that were within some normal range of expectations, say something up to about +/-5%,for example, it might have been a non-event (and Dave would have a lot less new registered users!) One might reasonably presume a direct relationship between the magnitude of increases and the intensity of the resulting hue and cry!
And just for the record, my taxes are going up a bunch, and I've appealed. If I don't get a reduction, I'll try to pay it and live with it!
We are both probably in the minority in terms of filing an appeal. One would hope, and I think that it is the case, that the majority are ok with their assessments, that it is only a relative few of us that are the proud owners of over- or incorrectly assessed property. Whether or not the numbers of us in such a situation is statistically significant, we don't as yet know. Hopefully, the actions taken by the TC will tell us that. |
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