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Jem
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 4:03 pm: |     |
Has anyone actually said here that there are 1st grade classes of 25? All I see in this discussion is one very off-hand reference to "average class sizes of 20-30." Are there currently 1st grade classes larger than the 22 student limit? Until someone tells us that the limit has indeed been exceeded, I see no reason to jump to the conclusion that there's some gross discrepancy. |
Nakaille
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 4:19 pm: | |
JEM: last night EB noted that his first grader is in a class of 25 (at SB, I believe) in the "Open Court" thread below.
Bacata |
Uqbar
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 4:21 pm: | |
I think Eyespy should decide this. |
Sac
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 4:22 pm: | |
On the "Open Court thread", EB1154 said that his/her child was in a first grade class with 25 children at Seth Boyden in response to an assertion by DWM that class sizes were smaller at SB. I have seen a class size list hanging on a bulletin board at SB when I went to volunteer, so I'll take a look next time I'm there. I don't recall the figures other than for my own children's grades (also posted in that other thread.) If anything, SB is a bit crowded due to the popularity of the program. I have heard that no transfer requests received by the posted deadline last May were denied, even though there was some resulting crowding. |
Jem
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 6:13 pm: | |
So I guess the size of EB1154's first grader's class is definitely above the limit, and the question is, how did it get to be that way? Did the class start out below the limit and expand due to kids moving in? Is the teacher handling it ok? Is there an aide or parent volunteer to help out? Have the parents discussed it with the principal? Are there many other instances of elementary classes that are too big, in SB or the other schools? It sounds as if it happened at Tuscan and the situation was addressed. |
Ejt
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 8:02 pm: | |
My "very off-hand reference" referred to schools in other districts, not Mplwd-SO. Anyone with school-age children knows that class sizes of 20-30 is the average for many schools in the state, and country for that matter.
But I'm sure you'll dig up a website somewhere to prove me wrong. Happy hunting! |
Eb1154
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 8:18 pm: | |
Let me start by giving some numbers at SB.
a.m. kdgn= 18 and 16
p.m. kdgn= 18 and 17
1st grade= 25, 22, 25, and 22
2nd grade= 21,21,21, and 21
3rd grade= 19,19,19,19, and 17
4th grade= 23,23,24, and 24
5th grade= 19,19,19, and 20
These numbers were as of october 2000.
According to someone in the registar's office the maximum number of students per class is now at 25.
The same person told us that SB had the largest number of 1st graders in the district but they would not make another class to reduce the size of the classes already there. However, they did put a freeze on 1st grade enrollment at SB. This included new families that moved in to the SB school zone.
MEM. has the right answer, we need less administrators and more competent teachers.
NJjoseph, I went to school in Jersey city and the classes were also very large and I am a little bit younger than you. The difference in then and now is our society. While our parents did expect us to learn and they did want us to excel in our classes everything wasn't geared around an education, we were allowed to have some fun and enjoy our childhood. Today's kids are missing out on so much of their "funtime" in life because everyone feels that their kid needs to be the smartest and have the highest test scores. Everything revolves around test scores today, and this is a shame. As long as the BOE gets the high test scores they don't care about the children who need help. They don't have time to teach these children, they have too much more to cover for the rest of the class. |
Sac
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 10:01 pm: | |
EB1154 -
Although these are probably about right, there are some errors in the numbers you have. There are five fourth grade classes - each at about 22 or 23. (I'm pretty sure my daughter's valentines list had 23 names on it, including her own.) There is also a multiage - combined 1st and 2nd grade class with about 11 of each grade. The student directory only shows 3 first grade classes other than the multiage class.
If the maximum class size is now 25, why are there 5 classes for 93 third graders? The third grade distribution, as well as the others except 1st grade would seem to support the lower limits. I suspect that the first grade entollment was unexpected and a decision was made not to add a class for whatever reason. If I were a first grade parent I might be protesting that. Although the 4th grade is large, I'm not as concerned about that with the older children as I would be in K-2. |
John
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 21, 2001 - 10:15 pm: | |
Shift responsibility for student actions back to the parents. Start Parent Supervised Detention In the Schools(PS-DIS). See thread on "Violence by high school students walking home from school" |
Cbbk
| | Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2001 - 3:03 am: | |
sac.
EB1154 is just about correct. There are 3 first grade classes 25,22,25. The multi-age is grouped with the first grades it has 22 students. So EB1154's numbers are correct for that grade. There are four other 2nd grade classes, of 21,21,21,21. As for the 4th grade you are correct there are 5 classes, 23,23,23,24,24.
The first grade enrollment should not have been unexpected, The administration knew the number of kindergarteners moving on to first grade, and made an allowance as to how many students would be accepted into sb etc. Why such a big surprise.
I am a parent of one of the first graders in a class with 25 students. I am extremely upset by this. Other parents as well as myself questioned and complained about the number of students in the class. We were told the only thing the administration could do is hire aids. That took over a month.
eb1154-
When we were in school, kids learning the basics thoroughly was important, not test scores.
There was also a basic standard for each grade.
There was also not a belief that:
In school, teachers expand what has been taught and learned at home.
Things have changed....
but not for the better. |
Mom
| | Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2001 - 8:19 am: | |
When a class goes above the size limit, the school can hire an aide. The first grade class at SB with more than 22 children does have an aide. The district needs to be more aggressive about encouraging everyone to register children for school as soon as possible to. My understanding is that there were a lot of late registrations at SB forcing the 1st grade class sizes to spiral out of control. |
Melidere
| | Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2001 - 9:54 am: | |
Mr. Manley,
I've been thinking about this a lot since you posed the question, and if there was just 'one' thing we could add to the school system...i would vote for after school activities. Not after school 'babysitting' but after-school activities like plays, sports, student council, chess club, etc, at the middle school level.
I think that the test scores are a by-product of a good school system, not the goal. Involved, active and engaged students will perform better on tests, so i think the after-school activities will get us where we want to go, but indirectly.
Right now, we do have a lot of our kids in 'after-school' programs...we just all arrange and pay for them separately. We pay for classes at the y, at val's, at the dance school, the chess club at the library...we all seem to agree that these extra-curricular activities are important for the growth and development of our children, but we leave parents to fend for themselves, in dollars and transportation time....to piece it all together on their own. The things we do offer, like the music program, are squished in to an already crowded school day, detracting from the experience and decreasing participation.
After school activities have a lot of benefits besides the obvious ones. They engage students in areas besides academics in which they may excel, boosting self-esteem and frequently, performance in other areas.
That would be my vote, anyway.
If i had one more vote...it would be for an investment in plant and equipment. We 'live up' to our surroundings, (or 'down' as the case may be.) Our forefathers recognized this in the beautiful buildings they invested in for our schools. Can you imagine us investing the kind of money it took to build Clinton school or Tuscan School or Columbia High school, today? We need to maintain and IMPROVE on those investments.
I think our forefathers recognized their investments in education as an investment in all of our futures and that they sent that message to kids loud and clear in the buildings and architecture. I think we send a message today, too. We send the message that they are a 'cost' center, only worth the minimum expenditures we can legally get past the courts.
Personally, i think it must have been easier to get the community to invest in buildings and architecture when people felt tied, for life, to their community. It took literally hundreds of years to build some of the great monuments of western europe, and that is an investment people make for their children and their children....
In our more mobile society...we seem to view the place we live as expendable. No need to fix the problems or invest in them..just move. Inadvertently, we are sending the message to our kids that they, too, are expendable, or unimportant.
One of my kids came home the other day and requested two copies of the same book. I asked him why. He said that the copies of the book that were handed out in school were so tattered that two of them were just about unusable and the teacher said we couldn't afford to invest in any additional copies. He wanted to donate the books to the teacher because he was worried that next year's class wouldn't be able to study this book due to lack of materials.
We send messages, every day, that they are not on our priority list. We need to send a new message if we want them to live up to our expectations.
or maybe they are. |
Jem
| | Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2001 - 11:28 am: | |
Meli, I couldn't agree more, on both counts. Compare the beautiful, stately public buildings and spaces that we take for granted here to the cut-rate, uninspiring architecture that most people live with. There's a sense of place, of pride, and of community that's conveyed by those buildings. We cheat ourselves, our children, and future generations if we don't maintain and enhance them and the activities that take place inside. |
Teach66
| | Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2001 - 2:29 pm: | |
First of all, at $10,000 per student, if all the private school students where to come into the picture the public schools would be strangling!! There are several things that the private schools do: a concentration on basic subjects and a lot less "fluff" - and more importantly - they teach to the class. Each and every student is expected to be a part of the class. Those students that catch on quicker are expected to help those who aren't. It's a win, win situation. The classes can be bigger because everyone works - together, instead of expecting teachers to teach to each student individually. The students are taught to be "one" and have respect for each other and for each other's speed of learning. If I could change something it would be that - that the students are taught to and expected to be part of a class. |
Cody
| | Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2001 - 3:16 pm: | |
What I'd like to see is a concerted effort on everyone's part to improve the atmosphere in the schools. Have the students be respectful to each other and the staff. Have the staff care about each and every child and recognize each child's uniqueness. Have fighting and put-downs immediately addressed, with parents brought in, if necessary so that they are not repeated. I don't think it's a racial thing. I know too many families of many ethnicities and racial makeups who feel as I do - all of our kids need a safe learning environment where they can speak out and be free to learn. I'd like to see the disruptive kids, the kids who for whatever reason don't value learning, put into a separate track where that specific problem is addressed. Then I think the schools would flourish and all the children could grow to the extent of their potential. |
Melidere
| | Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2001 - 3:41 pm: | |
Teach,
i have never understood the logic that we are better off when there are more children going to private schools. For many reasons, i've always felt that the more kids we have attending our public schools the better off we are in many ways:
1. The parents that care enough to research private schools and dig into their pockets to pay for them would seem to be the kind of interested, involved parents who would likely be value-added to the school system, the pta, etc.
2. The benefits of the economies of scale. Big, public schools are far more able to have a wide variety of special courses due to the ability to garner a 'critical mass' of interest.
3. The ability of larger school systems to create groupings by ability and thus better serve all levels of students.
I look at it this way. If i am trying to educate 30 students...i need a building, heat, a janitor, and tons of other things...the costs all borne by only 30 families. If i am trying to educate 300 students, i probably still only need one building, one janitor...etc.
There has to be benefits of economies of scale in education.
I've argued several times the same thing in reverse. Just because our 'expenditures per child' are $7,500 (the entire budget divided by number of children) doesn't meant that the ADDITIONAL COSTS of adding ONE CHILD are $7,500. |
Njjoseph
| | Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2001 - 3:52 pm: | |
Melidere, you're right that the incremental cost is not $7,500. But maybe the average incremental cost is. If adding one student puts the class size over the limit, you need an additional teacher or an aide. And that cost well exceeds $7,500. |
Teach66
| | Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2001 - 4:18 pm: | |
You're saying exactly what I'm against - a wide variety of special courses and muli levels of groupings... I'm saying stick to the basics and have all sorts of children in one class - and the expectation that they will all work together. There is such a breakdown of groups it is ridiculous and all those extra fluff courses are a waste until you bring the majority up to speed. Who cares if 3 students are getting fencing or scuba diving scholarships if the majority of the school is doing poorly on basic skills tests?? |
Melidere
| | Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2001 - 5:43 pm: | |
Well, one group that cares are the admissions officers of most colleges. As soon as we are satisfied with the test scores in our schools the next measure that is often used to compare schools is the number of kids who go to college, and the number of kids who are accepted to the 'better' schools.
The more elite schools are very interested in the extracurricular activities of the kids they are evaluating for admittance. Generally, what they are looking for is evidence that the student has aimed and achieved excellence, regardless of the subject matter. That's a lot easier to do when you can offer areas that inspire passion in the students.
I'm sure it won't hurt their applications when our fencing team puts down that they are one of (are they *the*?) best in the state. I don't think your average admissions officer could care less whether they were the best fencing team or the best basketball team. The relevant fact is that they stuck with something and followed through on it.
The ability to allow children the opportunity to explore divergent interests is one of the major advantages a public school can have over private schools. Why not play to your strengths? |
Melidere
| | Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2001 - 5:58 pm: | |
njjoseph
yes, but the incremental cost of adding 22 students may not be (and probably isn't) $165,000.
and if the class is already one over the limit, forcing you to hire the additional teacher...then does the addition of ONE MORE cost anything at all? |
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