| Author | Message | ||
     Ucnthndlthtruth |
From The Miami Herald http://www.miami.com/herald/special/news/flacount/ "If a manual recount of presidental ballots had gone forward in Miami-Dade County, George W. Bush likely would have won the presidency outright, without weeks of indecision and political warfare, a review of Miami-Dade County's "undervote'' ballots shows. Al Gore would have netted no more than 49 votes if a manual recount of Miami-Dade's ballots had been completed, according to the review. That would have been 140 too few to overcome Bush's lead, even when joined with Gore gains in Volusia, Palm Beach and Broward counties -- the three other counties where Gore had requested manual recounts." | ||
| Nakaille |
The lesson that needs to be learned from this is that the election would have held much more validity for ALL voters if they had let the recount go through. There still remains a large problem with losing the popular vote while winning the electoral (and Supreme Court) vote, however. I do have some hopes for the utilization of newer and more uniform technologies in the voting process, however, to eliminate a small portion of the nonsense that goes on in our democracy around elections. Bacata | ||
| Njjoseph |
Well, we can surmise, but still don't know for sure. There are 3 other counties that Gore requested for hand counting, but they haven't been done yet, nor has a state-wide hand count of the undervotes. Reading the article, it goes to show how flawed the punched card system is, since not only can you vote for more than one president, but you can cast a vote in a spot where there is no candidate. I don't know if the latter was because the ballot was difficult to read or was misaligned. However, my feeling, and those of many of my democratic friends, is that although we didn't want Bush to win (although we thought he would), that having the votes counted properly would legitimize his win. As long as there is a shred of doubt, he will never be the people's president. | ||
| Lseltzer |
Njjoseph: The other three counties did have their manual recounts (Broward, Palm, and Volusia?). The figures in the story include them. Eventually we'll get manual recount numbers from all the other counties and maybe even overvote recounts. | ||
| Njjoseph |
Larry, my mistake. The article was ambiguous about them at the beginning, but there was one sentence near the end that had the counts. Still, I think many in America don't even recognize Bush as their president. Maybe a decisive victory in Florida will help to change that. | ||
| Lseltzer |
I don't think it's ever going to be decisive either way. My guess is that all these recounts amount to a couple hundred votes one way or the other. And if you did them again you'd get a different set of numbers. | ||
| Tracks |
The point is the public was entitled to completer results before the decision was made by a court. We need a new system of voting with machines that are easy to use and can count accurately. Should not be hard for this country to do. | ||
| Lseltzer |
Personally, I like the mechanical voting machines we have here. They eliminate the possibility of overvotes, they're pretty simple to use, and they don't leave a trail of individual ballots for people to argue over. | ||
| Nohero |
I read something in the paper, I can't vouch for it, but it's too good not to be true: The mechanical voting machines we have here in Essex County were bought used - from Florida. | ||
| Lseltzer |
I know that machines like these have been used in New Jersey and New York for about 40 years. They were probably state-of-the-art at the time. | ||
| Konigen |
Tracks -- Agreed! Konigen | ||
| Ucnthndlthtruth |
From Miami Herald 4/4/01 "REVIEW SHOWS BALLOTS SAY BUSH" "Republican George W. Bush's victory in Florida, which gave him the White House, almost certainly would have endured even if a recount stopped by the U.S. Supreme Court had been allowed to go forward. In fact, a comprehensive review of 64,248 ballots in all 67 Florida counties by The Herald and its parent company, Knight Ridder, in partnership with USA Today, found that Bush's slender margin of 537 votes would have tripled to 1,665 votes under the generous counting standards advocated by Democrat Al Gore." I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for an apology from the anti-Bush zealots who so vehemently accused Bush of clearly stealing election. http://www.miami.com/herald/special/news/flacount/docs/032868.htm | ||
| Njjoseph |
I don't think you'll get an apology, either, nor should you get one. The election was stolen, no matter how many votes Bush actually got. Stolen because they weren't yet completely or accurately counted, and because the courts intervened and ruled on Bush's side even when there was doubt. No matter who you voted for or supported, I cannot believe that anyone in this country wasn't disheartened to learn that 5 people picked the President of the United States, and these 5 people were not elected by us to their positions. How many Bush supporters would apologize if Gore had the largest number of votes in Florida, and would Bush and his cabinet even consider stepping down? I'm glad we have a president in office and the country is healing itself, but don't expect apologies. | ||
| Jfb |
I shudder to think what would have happened if Gore were president.. He would be apologizing to China for hitting their fighter... Take MORE of our techology please... He would be proposing new taxes to help the economy vis a vi 1993 Clinton.. He would be signing the Kyoto protocol which would further crush the economy by severly limiting CO2 emissions (To 1992 levels). He would have nationalized electricity production to help California keep rates artifically low (democratic state you know) He would prohibit oil exporation ANYWHERE within the US, making us severly dependent on OPEC.. Finally, he would ban all internal combustion engines, a la Earth In The Balance... All in all, he would have been a disaster | ||
| Tracks |
There should be no apology. All Gore asked was for a full counting of the votes, and that was not done in a timely manner. Jfb: As for China, we should apologize for flying in what they have always considered their airspace. I do not think that the citizens of the US would be too happy to see spy planes flying just 60 miles from the shoreline. We should have signed the kyoto protocol because the long term environmental concerns are more important than short term economical concerns ( and it seems that the economy is "crushed" with or without this protocol). When Bush's dad went to Kuwait to protect our oil interests, he should have insisted that Kuwait supply us with oil at reduced prices. Instead Bush gave Kuwait and the oil companies a free ride in which they are making record profits. And California's electricity problems was a state mandated program and we will probably be seeing the same problems in NJ, courtesy of former Governor Whitman. | ||
| Jfb |
Track, The US plane was flying in international air space. And apologize for what? A jet fighter got to close and hit the plane? No way that lumbering spy plane could get near a jet fighter, no possible way. Anyone can see that. Most likely the pilot buzzed the spy plane and made a mistake. No apology required. In fact that would make the Chinese even bolder after eight years of Clinton cowerdice. Kyoto placed severe limits in CO2 production on first world countries.. third world countries get a bye. Talk about a transfer of wealth... Besides, the US is the economic engine that pulls the world economy. Why cripple it? Bush Sr. should have gotten a guaranteed price protection. However, it does not change the simple fact that if you want oil and gas YOU HAVE TO DRILL FOR IT!! A few thousand acres in the whole of Alaska is nothing compared with the benefit that the oil can provide. You drive a car, right? You heat your house with heating oil or gas, right? Whitman is and was an idiot. I'm a Libertarian and what I see in her is a pathetic excuse for a leader/manager. Good Riddance. I know no Republicans that think she is a true Republican. I'm not sure what she is, but I suspect that Dubya is beginning to regret the appointment.. Yes, California's problems are the result of politicians like Davis pandering to the electorate. Simple economics. Cap end user prices but not supply prices? Disaster. Economics 101. They gambled and lost. Time to deregulate and make the markets free again. People will pay hefty bills but it would encourage conservation AND when coupled with regulation streamlining allow new energy facilities to be built. | ||
| Tracks |
jfb, my only point with China is that China has their own rules about what is right. The important thing is to get the 24 men and women back safely and a simple apology does that. Pride is unimportant. This should be a minor incident and millions of dollars in trade are at stake and to let an apology get in the way is childish. Not to mention that even if it was 100% China's fault, someone has to be the adult and see the bigger picture. As for what Clinton might have done or what he did do, is unimportant. He is out of power. As for the Kyoto protocol and third world countries, we are supposed to be the leader, we are the ones who should do what is right and I do not think the econonmy would be crippled (any more than it is). It would be fine to drill for oil, but at the same time Bush should insist on funding alternative sources of energy and encouraging people to use less gas and oil. With everybody driving SUV's and larger cars, it is if we have an unlimited supply of gas. I know we can go on forever, but this is not exactly the place, etc. | ||
| Ashear |
Indeed, Bush is so concerned about the "energy crisis" he is cutting funds to energy conservation programs. http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/05/politics/05BUDG.html?searchpv=site01 After all, why conserve energy when there is pristine wilderness yet to be drilled in. But, on the bright side, Chevron is naming a taker after Condoleezza Rice. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2001/04/05/MN222557.DTL No, there is no reason to think that Bush puts the interests of big oil before those of the American people. | ||
| Nohero |
Thanks for the cite to the Chevron article (at this point, nothing surprises me about this crowd). It does strike me, though, that someone works hard all her life, achieves a national reputation as an articulate, knowledgeable academic, and in the end has to read this description in the paper: "The double-hulled giant, Condoleezza Rice". Sure, they're referring to the tanker, but I wouldn't want my name in a phrase like that.  | ||
| Dacar |
OUR President Bush came through BIG TIME today. If he keeps up the good work everyone will have to start liking him! | ||
| Jfb |
If the price of oil is low people will drive huge cars. That's economy 101. With prices going over the two dollar limit that will change. Cost eighty bucks or more to fill up a Suburban. Ouch. Bush is doing a good job. Less goverment, not more, is the key. Less goverment = more freedom. The latest thing is the regulation Clinton signed before he left about a national medical archive. Everyone's medical history will be kept in a national database available to many. This is outrageous. Talk about a loss of freedom. Cradle to grave health tracking. What's next? Genetic discrimination? (e.g. you have a history of some disease in your family) |
