| Author |
Message |
    
Melidere
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 6, 2001 - 11:43 pm: |     |
We're all talking about profiling when it seems that every person this kid came in contact with was seriously concerned he was going to do exactly this. He was even frisked by an adult for guns before he went to school that morning. What's up with that?
Alleged school gunman shot randomly |
Deadwhitemale
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 7, 2001 - 12:01 pm: | |
In the public arena there are no consequences to so much public and private criminal conduct. So why not try it out.
"I didn't have sexual relations with that pardon," and you wonder why another sociopath decides to act out his fantasy, no matter the consequences.
Hey, the poor, misunderstood boy was angry, and just threw a tantrum. The Menendez brothers killed their parents, partied, bought Porsches, returned to Princeton, played tennis, and blamed the parents. So, Andy Williams was angry his board was stolen, angry at his parents, angry at being taunted, just so, so angry, that he decided to get even for all the petty slights he ever suffered. He telegraphed his next move, to an "adult," but, it's nobody's business, until it is too late. The so-called adult just kept the warning under wraps. Then he went on TV after the fact, to confess.
Oprah will have all the players on in no time at all.
If you watch TV, you understand.
DWM |
Nakaille
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 7, 2001 - 12:59 pm: | |
Why do we tolerate an atmosphere where a kid can be beaten up, have his skateboard stolen repeatedly, be called names, etc. just for being smaller than average? (Never mind someone who is "different" in even less acceptable ways such as being gay.)
THIS DOES NOT IN ANY WAY EXCUSE HIS EXTREME RESPONSE but there really are no consequences for those who pick on people who happen to be a bit different from average.
Why is the violence of bullies acceptable? From early gradeschool on up. Why do we look the other way when a child is scapegoated?
Why don't we "get" how multiple incidents of bullying contribute to the disproportionately violent responses of kids like this? That's one place where zero tolerance is a joke. And yet, repeatedly, it is a major factor for kids whose self-control breaks down so devastatingly.
BTW, Dead, there is nothing new about bullying and scapegoating except the access to weaponry and maybe, just maybe, a sense on the part of victims that they shouldn't have to take it. Check out the old testament. The term scapegoat is derived from it.
To all: If your kid were being scapegoated, do you think he/she would tell you? And what would you advise?
And: if your kid were a bully, do you think you would know about it? And what would you do if you knew?
Bacata |
Patty
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 7, 2001 - 2:54 pm: | |
Bacata: You go, girl.
My (perhaps inappropriate?) pet peeve: all the news teams photographing only photogenic blond (non-"loser"?) types grieving at the latest site of the peer-governed artificial society of the American high school. |
Patty
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 7, 2001 - 3:48 pm: | |
To treat the root cause of this emotional limbo for most teens: study the writings of Mary Pipher ("Reviving Ophelia" and "In the Comfort of Each Other: Rebuilding Our Families"), Leon Botstein (prez of Bard College and frequent Times Op-Ed contributer) and novelist David Guterson ("Snow Falling on Cedars"). Dr. Pipher analyzes the peer culture and education, Botstein even wants to abolish high school as obsolete and emotionally--at least in these times--destructive and Guterson, although his "Family Matters" is about homeschooling, could be read to see where the present formal system could be humanized. These folks just blew me away--completely changed the way I think--and I can't go back. |
Nohero
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 7, 2001 - 5:47 pm: | |
I had read Botstein's proposed "solution", and came away with the impression that his "cure" was worse than the "disease". There are a lot of positive things about, and good kids in, any high school, and the real goal should be to encourage those. It appears that this most recent incident will encourage efforts in this regard, which are already underway, as noted in this article online: Dealing with the Causes of School Bullying |
Nakaille
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 7, 2001 - 5:54 pm: | |
Thanks for the link, Nohero. It has some excellent links at the end of the article, too.
Bacata |
Nakaille
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 7, 2001 - 5:58 pm: | |
How about this for thinking outside the box: Maybe it's the bullies we should be "profiling" since they tend to incite the violence and they are the ones most likely to beat up or kill their girlfriends and wives later on. Each time they get away with it reinforces their warped sense of power and entitlement.
Bacata |
Twig
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 7, 2001 - 8:34 pm: | |
Bacata - Exactly. Of course there is no excuse for what these shooters do, but if we are serious about addressing this, why do we always seem to focus on identifying and doing something with/about the subjects of victimization (and usually after the victimization has occured) more than on identifying and doing something with/about those who victimize (before they victimize)? Hey, I think that it is fairly easy to profile those who are most likely to do the "picking on". |
Ucnthndlthtruth
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 7, 2001 - 10:14 pm: | |
"Maybe it's the bullies we should be "profiling" since they tend to incite the violence and they are the ones most likely to beat up or kill their girlfriends and wives later on"
Absolutely ! But be careful, cause studies show and psychologists say that some of the most vicious bullying going on in schools are coming from teenage girls. |
Nakaille
| | Posted on Thursday, March 8, 2001 - 9:57 am: | |
Be careful? Profile the girls, too, if necessary! But my guess is it wasn't the girls beating up this kid. (They usually beat up other girls if they beat up anyone.)
My sisters went to high school in Elizabeth (anyone remember Battin, the all-girls public high school) in the mid 60's and there was plenty of violence, including between girls, even then. No, this is not new. But the access to weapons really does make a difference. At Battin, they just used knives back then.
Bacata |
Ejt
| | Posted on Thursday, March 8, 2001 - 11:47 am: | |
Look what happened in Williamsport, PA at a Catholic High School!! A 14 year-old GIRL shot another in the cafeteria. She would have continued shooting if another girl hadn't talked her out of it. |
Nan
| | Posted on Thursday, March 8, 2001 - 12:05 pm: | |
Until someone keeps statistics on how many people live lives of severely unrealized potential or commit suicide due to being bullied in school it will be hard to assess the damage done by girls who bully (except for above example). This is something that should be studied, as well as how teachers and administrators contribute to the problem. Citing statistics for the number of fights in a school is not really helpful since they do not give reasons for the altercations. There is a big difference between "fight over girlfriend" and "picked on him cause he wears ugly clothes and smells." Schools that have few reported fights may be just as likely to have a Columbine situation as schools with many.
It is sad that it has to come to acts of dramatic violence (by boys and a few girls) for anyone to pay attention to the problem of bullying, because it has been causing a quiet type of violence for a very long time. I was the victim of severe verbal and physical bullying (by both girls and boys) from about second through ninth grade. The experience continued to haunt me after leaving high school (and town) and has affected every area of my life. It is no small miracle that I now lead a normal, boring middle-class life. Even now, in my forties, I still have frequent flashbacks and moments of extreme fear.
One of the reasons I agreed to move back to the suburbs was that I felt that Maplewood was an example of a community more tolerant than most-we are after all famous for attracting a diverse community! I felt this was essential consideration since I now have a child, who may turn out to be as weird as his mother (unlikely). I would rather live in a community that has more than the number of school fights reported in Newark than another that is considered "totally safe" yet harbors cruelty hidden beneath the surface.
So, I guess the question we should be asking here is not how many incidents of violence do we have reported, but do we have children being picked on? And if so, what does the school (from kindergarten through high school) do about it? |
Jmadison
| | Posted on Friday, March 9, 2001 - 10:59 am: | |
http://opinionjournal.com/medialog/?id=85000685 |
Nakaille
| | Posted on Friday, March 9, 2001 - 12:14 pm: | |
Jmadison, I read the article (wasn't impressed since I think it, too, was distorted, just like the media she's making her money from.) But, as I said before, scapegoating and bullying are at least as old as the old testament. The weapons for revenge are, however, much more accessible, as well as more "automatic." I agree that the kid's reaction was extreme. But I don't think that excuses the bullying that preceded it, either.
Bacata |
Jem
| | Posted on Friday, March 9, 2001 - 12:27 pm: | |
The WSJ has hit a new low with that editorial, although it does seem somehow appropriate that they'd speak up for the bullies. It's horrible and frightening that children are committing murder, but even if they're tried and convicted as adults, they are still children, with a childish understanding of the world.
The WSJ's response of "oh, please, let's not pity the perpetrator," and for that matter, Bush's response about the Santee shooting being "an act of cowardice," are the sort of statements that one might argue apply in the case of an adult who kills, but it doesn't have a whole lot to do with kids. |
Nan
| | Posted on Friday, March 9, 2001 - 1:20 pm: | |
After my post yesterday I felt embarrassed that I had revealed something so personal about myself on a message board. After reading this news article, I understand why I felt so compelled to do so.
This is not about serial killers getting excused for heinous acts because of victim hood status. (although I do agree with Jem's opinion on that). This is a wake-up call about a problem that exists in some schools that should be studied and corrected. No child should be afraid to go to school because they know that everyday they will be pushed, shoved, slammed, poked, prodded, robbed, spit at, smeared with foul substances, and have their physical appearance negatively discussed in great detail by a large group of people standing around them in a circle. And then on the way home they will be dragged into bushes, grabbed off of bicycles from arms reaching out of moving cars, and occasionally set on fire. For some kids, this is a typical week that repeats itself year after year. Virtually all of these kids do not turn into homicidal maniacs. No one pays attention to them unless they do.
Surprisingly, most of these kids develop a strong resilience and some find ways to resolve the problem on their own or with help. And sometimes the problem eventually just goes away as some of the tormentors mature and develops feelings of guilt for what they have done. After its all said and done, most people on both ends grow up, get involved with life and don't talk about it anymore. Given the attitudes expressed in this article, I think it is time they started to speak up. To not do so, means that nothing will ever be done to stop this from happening to others.
We have celebrities and other prominent figures admitting to every kind of vice from substance abuse to prostitution. But you hardly ever hear someone say, "I got picked on in school." (I could be wrong about this-I don't follow celebrities) or pick "bullying" as their signature theme. You also don't hear people admit that they participated in someone else's torment and they now regret it. It's one of the last remaining "shameful" admissions that still remain in the closet. |
Nakaille
| | Posted on Friday, March 9, 2001 - 2:09 pm: | |
Nan, as someone who has revealed a lot of personal info on this board, I was very grateful and pleased to read your post yesterday. Actually I wished I'd had a way to contact you privately but probably this public forum is really the best way. I think it took a lot of courage and guts and resilience for you to post as you did concerning your own experiences of bullying. I tend to post personal info out of sheer exasperation that some folks seem to just not get it that real Maplewood people face and deal with all kinds of real problems every day that others have been insulated from by their own experiences.
I do know that the highest rate of teen suicide is among gay kids and that they get hassled mercilessly in many, many schools. For that reason they also have a very high drop-out rate. I got a little of that harassment in high school before I really knew that I was, in fact, gay. It was terrifying because I knew there could be serious violence including rape if it escalated just a bit. I tried to keep a low profile in situations where it might be a problem.
I have had the odd experience of attending a high school reunion and having a few people come up and apologize for their poor behavior toward me back in high school. I was fortunate enough to know that I would go on to college and leave behind the injured persona I struggled with. I was that classic kid who on the outside looked like everything was okay: student leader in academic, athletic and church groups. "Well rounded." Inside was a very different story, though. And some of my efforts to enlist help were turned aside for just that reason. I SEEMED to be fine and my family appeared to be okay from the outside so my intimations that there were problems got belittled by a couple of people in position to actually help. Luckily, there were others who understood and believed that appearances could be deceiving.
I suspect that for many victims of bullying the hatred gets turned inward against the self. It is certainly the safest route when facing a vicious circle of aggressors. Unless of course you have access to a semi-automatic and your self-control takes a nose-dive.
Bacata |
Jmadison
| | Posted on Friday, March 9, 2001 - 2:31 pm: | |
Jem: That wasn't a WSJ editorial. It was a column by Dorothy Rabinowitz. Their editorial ws actually quite soft, focusing on the disturbed kid and why he should have gotten help.
Maybe y'all will like this one better.
http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel030901.shtml |
Jem
| | Posted on Friday, March 9, 2001 - 5:03 pm: | |
Oh, OK. Not a WSJ editorial. Just on the WSJ opinion page.
What's to like about this tidbit from the second link you've offered us?:
"To the national media, civilians who take forceful action - wrestling a shooter to the ground, or pointing a handgun at the shooter's head - apparently teach the wrong lesson: that we're not all helpless; that brave people can stop criminals. That's a lesson which conflicts with the enraged helplessness promoted by the "Million" Mom March and its mean-spirited message (my emphasis) that the only way for children to be safe is for the government to crack down on law-abiding gun owners."
I especially "like" the suggestion in the article that had a 14 year old girl been able to get past the lock on the gun cabinet in her house, she would certainly have been able to defend herself against the man who attacked her siblings. As if she couldn't also have ended up shot when the attacker overpowered her and grabbed the gun. |
Deadwhitemale
| | Posted on Friday, March 9, 2001 - 5:05 pm: | |
Nakaille: His "extreme response" was deliberate, cold blooded murder. Repetitive, chilling, diverse, embracing death. In a school system with the most extensive Resolving Conflicts Creatively program in California.
Can you say "murderer?" Can you say "evil?"
Too hard to say, or even spell?
I think not.
If you can't call it what it is, you are part of the problem.
Where was his mother, 3,000 miles away, by choice.
His father must have been a real "father figure."
Who says parents don't make a difference.
Columbine's Klebold and Harris parents say they didn't know their precious sons were making bombs.
B.S.
All the murderers wanted to do was what they have learned all persons are "ENTITLED" to do, namely, be heard, by doing whatever they want to do.
They were unappreciated, or stressed, or so hungry they had to steal to live.
So they stole, or was it killed?
They wanted to make a statement, and you all approve of his making a statement, if only it stopped short of murder. Has anyone else come out and called for the execution of the monster. Call for poor Andy William's execution, now.
Never did like his voice anyway.
DWM |
Nan
| | Posted on Friday, March 9, 2001 - 7:38 pm: | |
Bacata, Thanks for the vote of confidence!
Jem, I agree with your remarks about the second post, but found it so bad, I finally had to laugh. I know he was trying to make some "profound" case for no gun control, but all I came away with was the need to grant children easy access to guns so they can defend themselves against intruders armed with pitchforks! Gee, now there is something I never worried about before! Can we get Fringe to post the statistics for pitchfork attacks in this area? Citizens beware, you heard it here first!
Dead, Please, there is one thing I can't figure out from your post. If Andy Williams died and you are already dead, then wouldn't he then be closer to you than he is now? So, if you don't like his singing, you might rather he live forever, right? I am really confused. At least it is Friday--I don't have to think for two whole days! |
Jmadison
| | Posted on Friday, March 9, 2001 - 11:35 pm: | |
The kid is a despicable coward. That is a more important message to get out to potential copycats than the one that the media is getting out, that he was somehow a righteous avenger of bullies. He shot, at random, kids in the back! And I'll take the spunky 2nd Amendment Sisters any day over the mewling Million Moms. A man never trifles with gals who carry rifles. |
Mem
| | Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2001 - 11:33 am: | |
WE NEED TO ABOLISH GUNS. Let the gun industry start manufacturing pitchforks. |
Dytunck
| | Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2001 - 12:44 pm: | |
"Pitchforks don't kill people. People with pitchforks do."
The posterboys for the NPA (National Pitchfork Association) could be the American Gothic farmer and wife.
Or maybe Neptune, the god of the sea. Wait, do tridents count as pitchforks?
Dytunck |
Nakaille
| | Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2001 - 4:43 pm: | |
Dead, you are so far off the mark it's not even funny. Or worth debating.
Bacata |
Eliz
| | Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2001 - 9:36 pm: | |
Log on to gunfreekids.org - it's an amazingly well organized website and if you want to have your voice heard on gun control they will give you the resources. It only takes a couple minutes and is always worth the time. |
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