Purchasing a home

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Author Message   Cdp Posted on Friday, March 9, 2001 - 11:26 am:        Hello, I'm from Raleigh, NC, and will be transferring to the area in the summer. I have considered Maplewood, but, of course, am concerned about the reval and its effects on my price range. I have learned a lot of good info thus far, and I appreciate the conversation. I had a couple of questions and thoughts that someone here may be able to address. There has been some discussion about members of the board going to open houses and seeing how the new taxes are addressed. I have had some problems in this area, as well. While doing some research, and pre-shopping in the area in January, my agent never mentioned the reval. In fact, she specifically pointed out how desirable Maplewood was in comparison to the higher taxes on the same (sales price) home. In reality, I found out in February (from the GREAT database) that the very homes I was looking at were some of the hardest hit (Euclid, for instance). The extra $6,000 in taxes essentially crushed my price range, as I can barely afford the area, as it is. When I asked her about this, she brushed it off and said something to the effect---'oh, it will never happen, it's all being appealed, and will take forever to sort out'. Can't decide if she's very uninformed/delusional or is trying to falsely soothe me. My question is this: while I am now well-informed, I'm curious to know when the new taxes will be REQUIRED to appear on the MLS sheets, for all buyers to see? Any agents on the board? I'm kind of wondering how well-informed some current buyers are to the high taxes. Certainly, you might think that buyers would thoroughly research this before purchasing, but I think you may have a skewed sense of what non-NJ residents perceive as being the importance in tax issues. For instance, I live currently live in a home that is much nicer/larger than most along Euclid (for instance, since I remember that street well), inside the beltline of Raleigh (ranked #1 place to live, Money magazine 1998(?) :-) ). My taxes are $1300/year. I didn't even consider them when I purchased. Point being, a lot of people don't expect this to be such a huge issue as it certainly is in NJ. Thus, they may not be on their toes, and end up purchasing a house that they can't really comfortably afford. And of course, if the agent never mentions the reval, you just take the number on the MLS to be truthful. Okay, enough rambling.....I would appreciate your thoughts on any of the topics I brought up.   Townie Posted on Friday, March 9, 2001 - 11:30 am:        Let the buyer beware, I think. If you have seen the database, you are getting a very good estimate of your possible taxes. (Anybody disagree?) May I ask you a question? How do taxpayers pay for public education within the Raleigh belt? kathleen   Dave23 Posted on Friday, March 9, 2001 - 11:39 am:        Your agent is downplaying it and misleading you. There have been two houses on the market recently on my street (Durand, one over from Euclid) and they have listed their estimated future taxes on their info sheets available at the open houses. We won't know the exact taxes until this year's budget is finalized. There is a bill in the State Senate seeking to roll in the tax hike over 5 years, but who knows if that will happen. All of that being said, I moved to Maplewood in August (with no knowledge of the reval) and have not regretted it for one moment. I'm looking at possibly a 40% increase, but I have no plan to leave. It's very messed up and the Township Committee has not done a great job handling it. (First of all, they should not have waited 19 years to do this.) On the other hand, when there was a massive outcry, our voices were heard. I hope you do somehow manage to land a house here. It's really a fabulous town: More charming than Millburn, prettier than South Orange, and more manageable than Montclair. T The market is still tight, but perhaps the increase in taxes will knock down the prices a little in the short term. In the long term, we need to force the state to alleviate the burden of localities paying so much of the education bill.   Cdp Posted on Friday, March 9, 2001 - 11:47 am:        Townie, Good question, with a little bit of research I could be a little more certain, but as I understand it... Education is a heavy hitter in local taxes. There is a countywide tax for local schools. But this is just for supplementary building, maintenance, and operation of the school itself, I believe. The teachers are state employees, and are paid out of the state budget. For the most part, though, the state funds the school system. In fact, there was recently a statewide bond that was passed for a new building initiative.   Townie Posted on Friday, March 9, 2001 - 11:59 am:        Thanks, Cdp. As you may have gathered if you've been reading these boards, schools in Mapelwood are funded out of the local property taxes.   Eliz Posted on Friday, March 9, 2001 - 12:06 pm:        Cdp - First thing I would say is to change realtors as this one does not have your best interest in mind. Realtors are a very select species but there are a few good ones. We had good luck with Geroge Kraus at Burgdorff. Second - taxes and all I think you will like it here.   Cdp Posted on Friday, March 9, 2001 - 12:22 pm:        Townie & Dave, I understand your perspective on the localized support of the school systems. However, do you think things would be better if it came out of the state budget? The money has to come from somewhere....do you think there would be a shift from the individual taxpayer, or perhaps a geographic shift of tax burden. What is NJ's income tax rate? It would seem that NJ is just a very expensive state to run, for some reason. Nonetheless, you'll be able to count me (plus one wife and one large German Shepard, named Bruce after NJ's own!!) among the masses, in a few months, though not necessarily in Maplewood. But I do like the town. My primary goal is to have a house that meets our minimum space requirements that is in a neighborhood that feels safe. I will be travelling all the time (management consulting) and I want my wife to feel like she is in a nice neighborhood. She works hard, as well, and only has time to get out and walk/jog in the evenings. I don't want her to feel captive in any way, and there are some neighborhoods in metro NJ/NY where I think she certainly would feel uneasy. There are many places in Maplewood that seem to have a good feel to them. But the same goes for Milburn/Short Hills, I believe, as well as the Newstead region of So. Orange. I'll be shopping all of these areas.   Cdp Posted on Friday, March 9, 2001 - 12:24 pm:        Eliz, Thanks for the post. I am considering my agent choice, and am prepared to do whatever I need to do to be sure that my interests are served. -cd   Townie Posted on Friday, March 9, 2001 - 12:39 pm:        Cdp, I am an ardent fan of paying for NJ schools out of a statewide income tax. Reforming NJ tax laws has been on the political agenda for years, and there is simply no telling when things will move. I think Maplewood is ideal for what you say you are looking for. I also very much wanted relief from worries about street crime, especially at night, when I moved out of NYC years ago. I like to walk around, and I live above the village, and I regularly walk back alone from a movie or the train after 11pm. I'd feel just as comfortable walking 15 minutes in the other direction, and thensome. There are perhaps only a slender handful of Maplewood residential areas I would feel uneasy in at night -- and most of them only because I've never been in them at all, and therefore don't know my way around. The same is true of parts of Millburn. You shouldn't limit your search to just the Newstead area of South Orange. There is much below Wyoming I think is walk-around-at-night safe, and when I was looking in SO before moving to Maplewood, I called the police and asked them, and with a little probing, got some realistic answers. Before moving to Maplewood, I looked all over Westchester and Long Island. Given what we could afford and what we wanted, Maplewood came out way on top.   Njjoseph Posted on Friday, March 9, 2001 - 2:48 pm:        Cdp, congratulations to you for learning about the reval and its effects prior to buying. I bought last May, and new about the reval prior to looking at the first house in Maplewood. I'm not sure why others don't research their towns prior to looking -- how else could they know if the town was right for them otherwise? I think that you are asking the right questions, and should do so of the real estate agent as well. If your response was from an agent holding an open house, leave it at that and still use your own agent with whom you are comfortable. If it was your own agent that gave you the misinformation, get rid of him/her and find another -- and definitely tell the first why you don't want his/her services anymore. I have zero tolerance for agents that cannot tell you what the new assessment is, and what the current rate would have been for the 2000 taxes under the new assessment. This information is common knowledge. In addition, the assessment IS going through. So, if an appeal is not being made on a house you want (it IS unlikely that a homeowner who is selling will fight their assessment), you will need to do it yourself or live with the assessment. You may or may not have enough ammunition when you move in, as you may not know the town well enough to fight it. Also, if your house is assessed at $500K, and you buy it within 10% or 15% of that price or higher, you will have no basis for appeal. On the other hand, if you pay a price 20% or higher, you are at higher risk for reassessment. This is why you need to know the assessment number before buying. And keep in mind that the spreadsheet is almost 2 months old at this point, and the current numbers with corrections are not yet available in consolidated form to all Maplewoodians. You sure have a lot of information, and I hope I gave you more (sorry to be so long-winded!). Good luck to you in your search -- I love it in Maplewood, and so far I have no regrets about living here.   Cdp Posted on Friday, March 9, 2001 - 5:44 pm:        Thanks for the response Njjoseph (and everyone so far)....I appreciate the perspective. I hope to pick the discussion up again on Monday. Until then...enjoy the weekend!   Joancrystal Posted on Friday, March 9, 2001 - 6:49 pm:        Cdp: There is a lot more to Maplewood than Euclid Ave. If the taxes there seem a little steep, try looking in some other parts of town. I don't know how large a house you are looking for but there are good sized houses throughout town. You are right to be concerned about your realtor. A good realtor should pick up on your needs, including your need to be able to afford to stay in the house you select. If you have lost faith in the realtor you are using, by all means choose another. If you have been reading this board, then you know that most of us still aren't sure what our final tax bills will be even though the town's real property assessments have been certified for the coming year. Some reasons for this are: 1. The total taxes to be collected haven't been set yet. Municipal, county and school budgets are still being set and the impact of reval on the town's portion of school and county taxes is still being worked out. 2. 900 households have requested revaluation reviews with the township tax assessor, 60% of which are still being examined. An unknown number of homeowners will file real property assessment appeals with the county before the april 15th deadline. 3. a number of last ditch legislative efforts, some better thought out than others, are being sought to reduce the impact of substantial tax increases in some parts of town, including much of Euclid Avenue, because of substantial shifts in real property tax burden being placed on individual homeowners as a result of certified's revaluation. No one really knows what the final figures will be at this time but the overall patterns shouldn't change much. Check the excellent reval link at Maplewood Online home page for database info and great maps. Good luck!   Melidere Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2001 - 8:51 am:        Cdp, when i was home alone a lot for a few years when our kids were small, i really appreciated the smaller lot sizes in maplewood. A lot of maplewoodians are avid gardeners and it's a lot easier to meet your neighbors and have some human contact on a casual basis than it is when your lot size puts you at a huge distance from everyone else. It made me feel a lot safer. After all is said and done, a lot of the difference between homes comes down to the people. Over and over again I've seen the residents of this town reach out and go above and beyond to welcome newcomers.   Townie Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2001 - 10:21 am:        Cdp, Melidere's right a point about the huge lot sizes. For me it's not a question feeling safe, but you can go for weeks around here without bumping into anybody! Talking to neighbors over the back fence involves being up for a mild hike. Also, even if you are an avid gardener (not me), the deer, rabbits, woodchucks, etc. are the greatest enjoyers of your work if you're close to the reservation. My neighbors are all extremely friendly and helpful people who feed each other's cats, help shovel snow, offer each other rides when needed, buy up GS cookies, and respond to every kind of emergency at the drop of a hat. We're a very diverse crowd, from Republicans to Greens, a remarkable ethnic and religious diversity, quite a few from foreign countries. We may even have a few from south of the Mason-Dixon; if not, you'll liven up the mix.   Mammabear Posted on Sunday, March 11, 2001 - 5:09 pm:        Cpd- we love it here despite the property taxes. Before you decide where to settle, why don't you look around- and I mean look arounf thoroughly. As for realtors here in Maplewood, we love George Kraus at Burdorff. He sold us our first home 4 years ago, and list it recently when we sold. He also found us our new home. He's honest, on top of things, and a pleasure to work with. Good luck and belated welcome to the area!   Yvette Posted on Monday, March 12, 2001 - 11:51 am:        Cpd, I love Maplewood, but just to help you out I listed a link below which will provide you with the current assessment and taxes of homes in Maplewood. Just enter the address and you'll get the info. Good Luck! www.bpna.org/reval   Lseltzer Posted on Monday, March 12, 2001 - 12:00 pm:        Cpd and Yvette, I own/run that site, and I should warn you that the data is current as of 1/19, and that things have changed since then, although probably not a whole lot. As soon as more recent data is available I will update the database and maps. LJS   Yvette Posted on Monday, March 12, 2001 - 3:34 pm:        Thanks Lseltzer. That site was and still is very helpful to myself and neighbors.   Cdp Posted on Monday, March 12, 2001 - 4:06 pm:        Thanks again, everyone. Yes, the database is great, and I found it from earlier lurking. Thanks again to LSeltzer! I've started a thread on the "Please help..." msg board concerning a comparison between Maplewood/SO and Livingston, BTW, if you're interested. It seemed that this discussion was migrating into such a direction anyway (which is fine with me!). So please contribute to the discussion if you have some more thoughts on the area, and what makes it special. I'm all ears. -cdp   Ktsigkap Posted on Wednesday, March 14, 2001 - 8:00 pm:        Just wanted to clarify for everyone. Having moved here 2 years ago from North Carolina, Education is much different here than there. I did not live in Raleigh, but North Carolina as a whole was (not sure where it is now)in the bottom 10 of state rankings in Elementary education. My children, both doing above average in NC and in one of the best school systems in the state, came to Maplewood, Clinton school in particular, and had a difficult first year catching up. Although there has been alot of discussion on this board about the downslide in education, I can tell you, compared to other areas in the country, it is far superior. It is not perfect, and can definitely improve. But it is all relative. My point, taxes are lower in NC. But so are salaries, and the quality of education. I am happy to continue to pay for a my children's education.   Nakaille Posted on Wednesday, March 14, 2001 - 8:07 pm:        Thanks for the perspective, Ktsigkap. Bacata   Townie Posted on Wednesday, March 14, 2001 - 8:11 pm:        Thanks, Ktsigkap. I'm happy to pay for your children's education, too! kathleen   Cdp Posted on Thursday, March 15, 2001 - 2:24 pm:        Just a quick response to Ktsigkap's post. Let me preface by saying, I understand the perspective, and it is not without merit. Often, I feel disheartenment about the education issue, myself. However, I have to point out that this is not entirely fair to NC, based on a number of things, but I'll just mention one that I've come to believe as being an overriding factor. In brief, NC is a widely economically varied state. There are high-tech and superior medical hubs, such as in the triangle area. (Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill) This is supported by three top-notch universities: Duke, UNC-Ch, and NCSU (NCSU is not ranked as high as the other two, overall, but has excellent Engineering/high-tech degree programs). I fear that I cannot back it up with a citation, but it is constantly reported that this area contains the best educated population in the country, boasting the highest number of Ph.D./M.D.'s per capita, having surpassed the Silicon Valley area a couple of years ago. All of this has certainly trickled down into our local public school system, making them very competitive. How does it trickle down? I believe it's because these students are raised in well-educated families, where higher education expectations are the norm. Now, let's examine the rural regions. These still have a large population of relatively poor (but not necessarily impoverished) families, where a high school diploma is respectable enough, and agricultural/service careers are the expectation. Nothing is wrong with this. Accordingly, the public schools cater to the local community priorities and place emphasis on the type of education that is required for that population. Note that in NC, nearly all students are directed to take the SATs, regardless of collegiate expectations. Thus, you have a large population that has intellectual competency, but not necessarily Ivy League SAT performance. Most educational rankings that I've read base their findings on mean/median SAT scores, graduation rates, and/or %progression to 4-year universities. It is easier to see why NC schools may sometimes rank poorly, taking all of this explanation into account. In summary, I don't believe the schools are failing the students. I think that there is just a large population who does not wish or intend to receive higher education. Accordingly, and as a corollary conclusion, I do not believe that it is lack of funding that is crippling the system in any way. For the record, both my wife and I are products of rural NC public schools (largely farming communities, where the FHA was much more popular than the National Honor Society). Our school was not necessarily strongly geared toward eventual higher education. But it is what the student makes of it. Both us went on to have superior SAT's, with my wife graduating with her Master's from Kenan Flagler Business school at UNC-CH (top ranked). As for me, I'm preparing for graduation with my Ph.D. in Mechanical Engineering from Duke University (6th? in the country). That's not to boast in any way, but simply to point out that, again, schooling is usually what you make of it. Throwing money at the situation is not necessarily the solution or a guarantee of better schools. For instance, motivated students don't need a computer for every student, in every classroom, as some leaders (in NC) suggest (as a reason for increasing your property tax!). According to them, expensive technology and beautiful new schools are the factors/solutions required to achieving great educational goals. To this I point out that during my education, I've competently learned Calculus and other high level mathematics that very few people ever come to understand. What is noteworthy is that every math lecture that I've ever had came in a room with a few old fashioned desks, 1970's decor, a smart teacher (which DOES cost money), and a blackboard. Tried and true--and you don't need a lot of sparkling new buildings or stratospheric budgets to achieve it! OK, I've obviously diverged from my intended post, and am now just rambling through my perspective of school funding, etc. Ktsigkap, please don't think that this post was directed at yours, per se. Just a catharsis on my part! (With maybe just a touch of indignant hometown pride!) -cdp   Ktsigkap Posted on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 10:40 am:        CDP - I think you raise many good points. For instance, I always felt that my kids quality of education lies more with me, the parent than the school system. My only comment would be, my kids school was not in rural NC, but in Greensboro, and at one of the best schools in Greensboro. A school which had ENORMOUS parent participation. And still, I watched my kids struggle and in some cases still are at one of the lower end schools in Maplewood-South Orange. Seems to me, that the school is not nearly as bad as some here would like to think. However if compared to other schools in the area, it is at the lower end of the scale. Again meaning it is all relative.   Mom Posted on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 1:07 pm:        Clinton should not be described as a lower end school even though you say it's all relative. My seventh grader had great teachers and she and many of her classmates did well there and continue to do well at the middle school. Yes scores may be slightly lower than at some of the other schools but the school population is also probably more diverse than at the other schools. I know this is not the subject of this thread but I know too many bright children who's academic careers began at the Clinton School, and too many wonderful teachers to not say something.   Joso Posted on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 9:58 am:        I couldn't agree more Mom. It is disingenuous to compare test scores strictly objectively when the make-up of the student populations of the schools is so different. Clinton is a very good school.   Mim Posted on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 10:30 am:        Thanks, Mom and Joso. You are correct. The Clinton population IS very different -- 2 years ago, all primary-grade ESL students were moved to the school. It is cheaper for the district to run just the one ESL program out of Clinton, but it definitely has an impact on the school's demographics, and ultimately its test scores. Imagine taking a standardized test as a new immigrant, quite possibly from a country where the educational system is poor or practically nonexistent. The scores of such students (who do largely catch up as they gain fluency) are bound to bring down Clinton's averages. (I'll now brace myself for attacks from those who view my statement about scores as racist somehow.) I would also like to sing the praises of several of Clinton's teachers. There are some real JEWELS.   Debby Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 1:14 pm:        Hey Dave - what happened to my post?