| Author |
Message |
    
Lalaw
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 10:37 am: |     |
Counting students getting off of a bus is not a fair deduction method. South Orange does border Vailsburg, and I'm sure some students from Stanley or Holland roads do take the bus occasionally. |
Bobk
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 10:42 am: | |
Yeah along with the kids who show up at MMS in Newark and Irvington cabs because their dads are cab drivers.
Hate to be cynical.............. |
Nilmiester
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 1:11 pm: | |
Yes, i agree that kids take the bus, I would. I even stated that to my doctor to explain why his friend would witness this. He was clear that the kids were already on the bus in Newark, long before nearing the borders. |
Melidere
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 2:46 pm: | |
bobk,
take a walk on the wild side and go drive around on the 'other' side of boyden some night...and count the number of cabs in the driveways. You'll be surprised. Either they live here or there is a whole new conspiracy by homeowners to rent out their driveway space to cabbies.
where is this bus route that comes directly from newark and stops in front of columbia? (serious question..i don't take the bus). Isn't there a catholic school right near columbia? Would kids get off at the same stop? Did he watch to see which doors they walked into? Is he sure they weren't teachers? (you know you're getting old when cops and firemen look like kids...sighs). Could they have been visiting? Maybe mom lives in maplewood because of the better schools and dad has taken an apartment in irvington. Maybe mom had to work late and they spent the night with an aunt. The possibilities boggle the mind.
Hasn't anybody noticed the complaining on other threads about the volume of paperwork you have to fill out to enroll in this district?
sorry, bobk, the cabbie thing just gets me going. The stay-at-home moms drive their kids to school in droves (it can take you an hour to get from one side of this town to the other when school starts) without ever giving a thought to the predicament of a parent late for work and the carpool doesn't show. Doh! they call a cab. Not to mention some of the lovely men i've met in this town who drive long, dangerous hours in the city all night in order to provide a better life for their kids, but they are home in time to take them to school, and there all day if they need them. |
Face
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 3:12 pm: | |
So what Nil, kids have to attend school somewhere, why not in Maplewood-SO. Hey, I reccomend all of my friends send their children to our schools, heck our BOE welcomes everybody with welcome arms. They don't care where you're from! Diversity rules! |
Nakaille
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 4:03 pm: | |
Face, have you ever tried to enroll a kid in our schools? I'm in the process and believe me, it is not easy.
Bacata |
Mtierney
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 4:55 pm: | |
Back in the early '80s when this out of district student situation came to light with a bang, students taking the bus into Vailsburg and the Oranges from Valley St. and Parker was not disputed. Some people actually rode the bus and noted the kids continuing out of South Orange. However, it was not PC to make a case. At that time the district had deteriorating buildings, desegregation pressure and fewer students. That's when Fielding, First Street, Newstead and Montrose were closed. Would make some interesting reading to check the papers at that time. We got a lot of coverage. |
Alidah
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 9:47 pm: | |
We're in a different situation now. Enrollment will be going up. When you have to camp out overnight to sign your kid up for the one available spot at Morrow Memorial Preschool you know things are getting tight.
People whose taxes are rising are not going to like the idea of possibly subsiding the education of out of district students, either.
It will be harsh and it will hurt to do it (who wants to report kids they know and like?), but to be fiscally responsible to our citizens this issue has to be addressed directly.
Someone needs to sit on that bus for a couple of weeks to see where those kids get off. Melidere, I understand and sympathise with every scenario you have offered, but what you offer is not proof.
When an out of district student is reported in Summit they are followed, as is the parent. If the BOE thinks they have a case, they call the parent in and present them with the proof. The parent is told to pay tuition, enroll in their own school district, or move to town.
When this happened to my friend, it was near the end of the year, her sons were allowed to finish the school year and it was up to her to take care of things over the summer. She moved to Summit. Now she and her kids can take part fully in the life of the school, socialize with classmates out of the classroom, and not feel like outsiders. The BOE did her family a big favor. |
Face
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 10:04 pm: | |
Enrollment is a snap. First you pick up a copy of the forms on Academy Street. Then you complete the forms, along with a copy of a standard lease, (easily obtained), and provide copies of a phone bill, and auto insurance, mailed in your name to the address you've chosen. My cousins had no trouble, why should anyone else. Return the forms in person, but I've been told that has been waived too. All you really need is a friend, or acquaintance, in town. |
Nakaille
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 11:50 pm: | |
While it is true that we are not required to submit FBI fingerprints (we did have to do that for our adoption) the requested documentation is appropriate for purposes of residency documentation. It is the same kind of information required by other government entities for eligibility purposes. The packet states that at the time of registration "you must present ORIGINAL papers and one additional copy" of the required items. For renters who do not have a lease (you'd be surprised how many landlords don't want to do a lease, easier to oust someone in an owner-occupied building) the landlord must present a notarized letter (Landlord Affidavit). Same if you and your children live with a friend or relative. Plus two pieces of current legal mail in your name. (No personal letters or junk mail, just bills, drivers license, employee verification, state benefits, car insurance, life insurance, etc.)
The packet notes that "only a parent or legal guardian may register a student in the SOMS district" and further states: "Any and all persons who give fraudulent information for the purpose of attending our schools will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and sued for tuition for the child's period of ineligible attendance in the schools of the district. Residency checks are completed on students on a regular basis and may be conducted as early as 6:00 in the morning."
Yes, there will always be people who try to get around this. That doesn't mean the process in place for registration is flawed. We say we will pursue and prosecute those who violate the rules. Do we? I don't know. I DO think we should even though I understand why someone would try to get around them.
Face, were you implying that your cousins got in illegally? (Are they still in the system? Illegally?) If so, what constructive suggestions could you make based on your personal experience to improve the registration process? If they got in under legal grounds, what is your point?
Bacata |
Bobk
| | Posted on Friday, March 23, 2001 - 6:41 am: | |
Melidere - Not to dinigrate taxi drivers, an occupation I followed in NYC for a few months waiting my draft board, but up to now I never knew that Maplewood was the home of so many taxi drivers. Wow!
While some of the kids being dropped off are probably legitimate, I still am cynical |
Melidere
| | Posted on Friday, March 23, 2001 - 9:14 am: | |
"People will believe anything because either they want to believe it or are afraid it might be true"
Wizard's First Rule
Terry Goodkind |
Melidere
| | Posted on Friday, March 23, 2001 - 9:37 am: | |
Alidah,
There are two issues here which always get confused. I've never gotten any information on this from anyone official, so this is just my personal read on the subject, but here goes 'the world according to meli'
The first issue is the issue of students from outside the district, who clearly live outside the district, going to school here. This issue has been looked at from time to time, but my perception is that the measures in place, a combination of massive amounts of paperwork combined with fairly punitive sanctions (any landlord or resident who aids in this kind of deception would be personally liable for the out-of-district enrollment fees), in addition to those 'bed' checks which are authorized for early morning checks, pretty much have this problem under control. I wasn't paying very close attention, but i think we've been through a rather expansive application of that rather grotesque bit of invasion of personal space a couple of times and found that the violations of this sort were relatively few.
The second issue is infinitely more complex and is likely the source of the bulk of acrimony. That is an issue of whether or not children actually LIVING here should be allowed to attend schools. That brings up a lot of questions of who constitutes a guardian, what is a family, but most importantly, who is living in violation of zoning regulations. Here the issue is one of jurisdiction. There seem to be those who would argue that an effective use of administrative resources is to use the schools as a source of information for zoning violations and reduce enrollment indirectly by routing people out of their living space.
On the first issue, you are right, neither one of us has any proof. All i have is 20 years of experience in this district, as a landlord, a resident, and a parent, and i find it rather unlikely that there are consequential numbers of children who are successfully scamming the system. If there are, i'm at a loss to think of additional burdens that could be put on registration to eliminate the problem. How much more draconian and invasive can the district get than 6am bed checks?
Therefore, i look for other reasons behind those cabs, and since i'm able to come up with so many of them, i find the idea that every child that shows up to school in a cab suffers the cynical eye of his friends parents, distressing, to say the least. |
Nilmiester
| | Posted on Friday, March 23, 2001 - 9:49 am: | |
Are there any CHS graduates that have been there and can comment on this surburban legend? |
Mem
| | Posted on Friday, March 23, 2001 - 10:52 am: | |
Nilmeister - I am a Columbia High school graduate, and we had friends that were in the system illegally from Irvington, East Orange and Newark. A few were related to a friend of mine who lived in South Orange, and used her address. We would never tell the school or our parents because they were our pals and we didn't want them to get kicked out. This post is not to cause trouble please, they were decent kids, and grateful to be there. |
Librarylady
| | Posted on Friday, March 23, 2001 - 11:06 am: | |
Whether the kids were decent and greatful to be here is beside the point. My kids are decent and would be greatful to attend school in Mountain Lakes or Milburn. Allowing students who are not part of the tax base to attend our schools puts the additional financial responsibilty on me and my neighbors, which is not fair. I have no problem paying a reasonable amount of tax money to support our district, but I neither want or can pay addition moneys to educate those who do not live here. While it might be to the benefit of the district to inflate population numbers, (more teachers, building space,etc), it soes not help my bottom line. |
Nakaille
| | Posted on Friday, March 23, 2001 - 11:50 am: | |
Mem, that's the problem. We are all willing to vouch for our cousins or our friends. But the person who doesn't know our cousins or our friends at best just sees "freeloaders" eating up tax dollars. At worst they attribute all the behavioral problems to those "outsiders." (Since our own Maplewood kids would never do such things, would they? Yes, they would and do, but how much easier to blame the outsiders.)
Who is right? Well, everyone, in a sense. The parents who want to give their kids a shot at a decent education so they can get a decent job and buy a house in a town like Maplewood, the taxpayer who is already paying astronomically in a town like Maplewood, the friends who protect the kids from the outside because they're "decent kids, and grateful to be there."
Here's my favorite residency story. Years ago I lived in South Orange Gardens, a garden apt complex whose address was 764 Scotland Road, SOUTH ORANGE, NJ. That's what my deed said. That's what my driver's license said, that's what my utilities bills said. You get the picture. I was happy to have moved from Belleville to South Orange. The rents for the townhouses (3 floors, nice homey feel) were South Orange rents. Okay, not surprising. After a week or so, we go to the library to get cards. The librarian acts like we're criminals. Literally yelling at us that we don't live in South Orange! The other patrons are looking at us trying to figure out what we're up to. Holding up the library? Library fines don't bring that much cash in, do they?
It took us a while to ferret out the information that a small sliver (the driveway) of the complex was in South Orange but the bulk of the property was in Orange. I really felt sorry for people who had kids and moved there thinking they were going to be able to enroll in the SOMS sytem and only AFTER the one year lease was signed and 3 months' rent paid up front, found out that actually they were in the Orange school district. Fair? Not a bit. Frustrating? Mightily. Arbitrary? From the parents' point of view, absolutely! Someone should probably go after the owner of that property with a very savvy attorney. But the burden is on the renters. Who don't have a leg to stand on. The moral: Sometimes even when people really try to do the right thing they get shafted. I'm just glad we're regular library patrons and found out when we did instead of basing our life plans on false information. The librarian? Who the heck knows what was up with her? But boy did she have some misplaced anger.
Bacata |
Mem
| | Posted on Friday, March 23, 2001 - 12:46 pm: | |
I am not promoting educating students from other school districts, I was answering Nil's question of our experience as CHS students regarding out of district students, and how we dealt with it. |
Librarylady
| | Posted on Friday, March 23, 2001 - 12:53 pm: | |
Okay, as a librarian in South Orange I must answer this post.
There are 4 South Orange Addresses that are not located in South Orange. From what I understand, they use 07079 becasue it is easier for the Post Office. Anyway these four properties pay taxes in Orange and those taxes support the Orange School System, Rec department and Library.
On occasion, a new resident will come into the Library and request a card. We politely inform them that they do NOT live in SO. Orange, need to go to their local library(Orange) and get a county card that can be used in any Library in Essex county. More often than not, these new residents are extremely upset to learn that they do not live in So. Orange and are not eligible to use the town's pool, schools and library. This is something that they should have been informed of when they signed their lease. These new residents are, as I said upset and often try to argue (I know I would when I just discovered I don't live where I thought I did).
Anyway, if for some reason one our our employees was disrespectful, I certainly aplogize for them. We all have bad days sometime and who knows what was up that day.
Get your county card from Maplewood and come visit us again. |
Spw784
| | Posted on Friday, March 23, 2001 - 4:04 pm: | |
I always thought that "The Top" (Condos/apartments) was in South Orange, until I saw a real estate for sale ad in the Ledger, advertising condos on South Orange Ave, in Maplewood. I said to myself, South Orange Avenue doesnt go anywhere NEAR Maplewood. However, I checked a map, and sure enough, Maplewood has a small sliver through the reservation, all the way up to South Orange Ave... probably just enough to cover "The Top".
Now you've got me thinking. .. if there were children living there at "The Top", where would they attend school? Jefferson or South Mtn? |
Kathy
| | Posted on Friday, March 23, 2001 - 4:24 pm: | |
I'm quite certain that any children living in "The Top" would go to South Mountain. In fact, there is a portion of Maplewood along Wyoming Ave. where the children also go to South Mountain. School boundaries do not follow town lines.
The piece of property on which The Top is built is half in South Orange and half in Maplewood. The builders built on the Maplewood half because South Orange does not allow any buildings to rise higher than the tree line. (Maplewood let them build 10 stories--they originally wanted 20!!) However, because of its location its fire and police services come from South Orange. I think that a payment is made to the Village every year to cover this. |
Soda
| | Posted on Friday, March 23, 2001 - 4:37 pm: | |
That was the old Gruning's site, which was in S.O. |
Dytunck
| | Posted on Friday, March 23, 2001 - 10:34 pm: | |
Soda,
That is an old Grunings site, but it is in Maplewood. There was another Grunings store in SO, where Cafe Arugula is now. Spw784 is absolutely right.
Dytunck |
Soda
| | Posted on Saturday, March 24, 2001 - 9:39 am: | |
Noted. |
Mtierney
| | Posted on Saturday, March 24, 2001 - 11:03 am: | |
Forgive me if my memory is incorrect, but I recall hearing that Maplewood has more acreage in the reservation than SO. Millburn I think comes in second. |
Alidah
| | Posted on Saturday, March 24, 2001 - 1:52 pm: | |
Mem, you have put your finger on the awful truth of the problem. Honestly, I couldn't report anyone either. What a mess. |
Mem
| | Posted on Saturday, March 24, 2001 - 2:04 pm: | |
I would assume (note: assume) that parents who take the trouble and risk to illegally place their children in a better school district are caring parents. Children from caring families tend to be better adjusted, and these students are in a safer environment, revceiving a better education. However, laws are being broken here and it can't promote a good example for these kids, as well as the burden of overcrowding on our district. It is a mess. |
Nakaille
| | Posted on Saturday, March 24, 2001 - 5:26 pm: | |
Mem and Alidah, I agree with both of you. It is a very tough situation for everyone. Mem, I'm sorry if my other post in response to your experience seemed chiding. I did not mean it to be. I meant only to say, yes-that's just it, you can see this problem from different sides and yes, it is a mess.
In an ideal world all school would be equally great places for kids to learn. In the real world, though, we have to figure our how to enforce the rules of residence in a reasonable manner.
Bacata |
Curmudgeon
| | Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2001 - 2:10 pm: | |
This is why local property tax funding of schools is such a bad idea - it pits neighbor against neighbor, town against town, when the idea is to provide quality education for our children.
Schools need to be funded in a more equitable and less location-dependent way and, when that happens, it will be a much smaller issue if a child from, say, Irvington attends our schools - it'll be paid for regardless.
I'm not a a constitutional scholar by any means, but it has always struck me that the obvious inequities built into the way schools are funded violate the Equal Protection clause (Amendment XIV, section 1). It also makes tracking down and expelling "foreign" students constitutionally dicey, in my opinion. |
Kathy
| | Posted on Sunday, March 25, 2001 - 6:25 pm: | |
MTierney, South Orange has no acreage in the reservation. It all went to Maplewood when the two towns divided. |
Tracks
| | Posted on Monday, March 26, 2001 - 12:45 pm: | |
I do not think that Maplewood pays a penny to South Orange for fire or police services. I do not think the two towns ever came to an agreement on an amount. I see Maplewood police cars in front of the Top every now and then.
As for the librarians in S. Orange, I find they are usually polite. More likely the residents of Orange or Maplewood get upset when they find out they are not S. ORange residents. They should be upset with the realtors who do not give full disclosure, or their attorney who did not do full due diligence. |
|
Closed: New threads not accepted on this page