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mfpark
Citizen
Username: Mfpark
Post Number: 161
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 9:33 am: |     |
I do not always agree with David Brooks, but his piece in the NYT today is quite good.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/13/opinion/13BROO.html
The post-Atwater Republican Party looks nothing like the old Goldwater-Rockefeller split personality. Democrats need to stop eating their young and find someone to rally behind, or they will be back-benchers for another decade. |
Michaela May
Citizen
Username: Mayquene
Post Number: 29
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 10:07 am: | |
And they need to stop letting the Republican monopolize issues that Americans care about -- they need to stop being afraid of family issues, and show voters why "compassionate conservative" is a euphamism for taking away rights, taking away benefits that help families and giving handouts to the rich. Dems need to make issues approachable for Americans and show them that the party stands for something. |
gozerbrown
Citizen
Username: Gozerbrown
Post Number: 296
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 10:20 am: | |
I just keep chuckling every time I see Dean going off half-cocked. (which seems to happen pretty frequently) |
Don Perkins
Citizen
Username: Cowboy
Post Number: 256
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 10:34 am: | |
Excuse me, but I haven't yet learned the special code that defines "compassionate conservative" as a "euphamism for taking away rights, taking away benefits that help families and giving handouts to the rich."
Michaela May perhaps you will enlighten us all by listing exactly which rights of yours have been "taken away." And if not your rights, then please be specific about who's rights have been taken away. Name names.
If you are sympathetic towards that fellow being held without being charged because it is thought he was preparing to commit a crime, feel free to include him. Include all of the Americans you can. However, please do not include those who have no rights except under the Geneva Convention. |
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1703
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 12:53 pm: | |
A presumption of guilt is not a conviction. Presumed guilty people have the same rights you and I have. If you lump suspects and citizens together, you might as well call all of us suspects.
And a supreme court ruling -- I can't remember which -- states that the laws are of the land, not the citizens.
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
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mfpark
Citizen
Username: Mfpark
Post Number: 162
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 12:59 pm: | |
Michaela May:
You are absolutely right. Democrats need to clearly define stands in simple, rational terms, and then run hard. Enough negative campaigning and "me-too" stuff--they need to make the case for people to vote for them, and not simply to vote against Bush or other Republicans.
If they cannot do this, if they cannot shift the discussion to their topics, then they do not deserve to win.
It is that "vision thing" again. By the way, when are you running? |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 688
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 1:05 pm: | |
First, the democrats have to sort out who they are. They've got a bunch of disparate special interest groups that many times have agendas at cross purposes with each other (union workers and environmentalists as an example) and those who don't believe business is evil mixed with those who do.
I believe Dean will win and be the Goldwater for his party. Except by going hard-left, he will place the Dems as a party without meaningful power in DC for some time whereas Goldwater made conservatism (for the most part) the dominant ideology with the republicans. And more and more on the state and local level as well.
Liberals lose when they run as liberals except in parts of the NE, the NW, and parts of wacky CA. |
Jerseyfabulous
Citizen
Username: Jerseyfabulous
Post Number: 58
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 1:12 pm: | |
Tom your statement is not true. "Presumed guilty people have the same rights you and I have." Although that is true in the eyes of courts, the American judicial system allows us to arrest and hold people without bail(before a trial which can take years in some jurisdictions). It allows us to search peoples homes and listen to thier calls, all based presumed guilt. "Innocent until proven guilt" is a term that applies to courts and judges but not law enforcement. |
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1705
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 1:17 pm: | |
Oops, you're right, jerseyfabulous, but the accused are still entitled to representation. We are denying them that now. So essentially, the government has usurped the right to lasso anyone off the street and not give them access to representation and not notify anyone, either. It doesn't bother some folks yet, because it's only happening to the so-called bad guys so far. But who decides who the bad guys are? Do we have a reliable method for that? That's what a court is supposed to be for. So why not use due process for the accused?
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
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mfpark
Citizen
Username: Mfpark
Post Number: 163
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 2:17 pm: | |
CJC:
I don't think the Goldwater revolution worked as quickly as you said. After his crushing defeat, the party lurched sideways. Nixon was hardly a conservative and represented the old GOP. But the young radical right was mobilized by Goldwater, and replaced the older McCarthy radical right at the grass roots level. After many years of grass roots organizing and being frozen out, they emerged in the Reagan years as the force guiding the Republican Party. Their near-lock step unity and insistence on party discipline comes from years of grass roots organizing from the outside of power.
Given this, one could argue that Dean will have a similar effect on the Dems, even if he gets thumped. He is attracting the youth, and saying he is radical. But he really is not radical, so I am not sure if the parallel with Goldwater holds here. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 691
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 2:23 pm: | |
We'll have to see on the Dem side. As for republicans, we're back to sideways in many ways -- particularly domestically. There's not a lot of right-wing-ness out of this Administration domestically aside from the tax cuts.
My side is saying 'OK...once he gets the Senate, THEN we'll see the conservative we're hoping for." I'm not optimistic even if the Senate goes filibuster-proof. |
Michaela May
Citizen
Username: Mayquene
Post Number: 30
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 2:47 pm: | |
Tom, see the Patriot Act. I can take out a book from a university library, and the government can seize those records without me ever knowing. Lots of stuff like that.
Also, not to start a firestorm in here, but he has also made quite an assault on reproductive freedoms, and I consider his support of banning gay marriage a restriction on rights as well. (Not that his stance on the latter issue isn't a common one).
I believe Dean is moving more and more to the right, and that once (if?) he gets the party nomination, we'll see that more so. I pointed to www.bushin30seconds.org on another thread because a few of the ads on that Web site do a good job of criticizing the Bush administration in a way that doesn't come off petty or mean. Maybe Democrats are simply too infuriated to realize how often, in their passion against this and that, they come off as self-righteous? |
notehead
Citizen
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 855
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 9:38 pm: | |
I'm not sure Brooks is right. Once we are down to one Democratic candidate and Bush, there will be much more focus on everything that Bush has lied about, reneged on, and screwed up. I think it's entirely likely that many Dems who do have some positive feelings about Bush, as well as many Republicans, are going to realize what a mistake it would be to vote for him when they take a serious look at his failures versus his successes. Of course, that's assuming that people can be bothered to take a serious look.
Michaela: I'm sorry... but I've got to ask... would it be too terrible if we called you "Mini-May" ??  |
Nohero
Citizen
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 2713
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 1:09 pm: | |
Polls for Iowa show the race tightening up:
http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=779
| Candidate | Jan 11-13 | Jan 10-12 | Jan 9-11 | Jan 8-10 | | Former VT Governor Howard Dean | 24 | 28 | 26 | 25 | | MO Congressman Richard Gephardt | 21 | 23 | 23 | 23 | | MA Senator John Kerry | 21 | 17 | 16 | 15 | | NC Senator John Edwards | 15 | 14 | 12 | 14 | | Retired General Wesley K. Clark | 3 | 2 | 2 | 3 | | OH Congressman Dennis Kucinich | 2 | 3 | 3 | 2 | | CT Senator Joseph Lieberman | 1 | 1 | 2 | 3 | | Former IL Senator Carol Mosley Braun | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | | Civil Rights Activist Rev. Al Sharpton | 0.1 | 0.1 | 1 | 1 | | Undecided | 13 | 12 | 14 | 14 | | | |
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