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lumpyhead
Citizen Username: Lumpyhead
Post Number: 634 Registered: 3-2002
| Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 10:38 am: |    |
Most of the Presidential candidates speak about how George Bush has lost millions and millions of job that were created by the Clinton administration. How did Bill Clinton "create" these jobs? Why doesn't GWB just "create" them like Clinton did? He obviously isn't afraid to spend money. Were all these jobs government jobs or did the Clinton Adminstration "create" jobs in the private sector? Were these jobs just the dot com boom that the Clinton administration had nothing to do with except be lax on business practices creating more of a false boom??
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Dave Ross
Citizen Username: Dave
Post Number: 6181 Registered: 4-1998

| Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 10:58 am: |    |
Clinton cut the size of the federal govt. dramatically. Policies to not tax Internet business also helped, as well as good compromises with Republican congress. |
   
cjc
Citizen Username: Cjc
Post Number: 768 Registered: 8-2003
| Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 11:17 am: |    |
The only thing Clinton cut on the federal side significantly was the military. The economy really took off after the republican victories of 1994 when businesses knew that no more tax increasesz would be directed at them. The cap gains tax reductions the republicans got helped as well, as you'll see deficits really declining in the latter part of the 90s. For more on shrinking govt, a link: http://govexec.com/features/0199/0199s1.htm |
   
tjohn
Citizen Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2121 Registered: 12-2001

| Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 11:28 am: |    |
I know it is an election year, but the reality is that Clinton was lucky enough to preside over a bubble economy that occurred because of the coming together or computers and communications. This unlocked the creativity of a huge number of people in a way that had never before happened. Even the equivalent of the September 11th attacks wouldn't have derailed the tech bubble economy. |
   
Steam Roller
Citizen Username: Cowboy
Post Number: 303 Registered: 9-2003

| Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 3:17 pm: |    |
Dave Ross offered that, "Clinton cut the size of the federal govt. dramatically." I agree with Cjc that Clinton's bigest cuts in the Federal govt. were focused upon the military, but I am willing to have Dave elaborate more fully. If you can provide more specifics Dave, please do so. Thank you tjohn, you are correct. Clinton was lucky to preside over a bubble economy. Unfortunately it burst, taking many jobs along with it. The creativity that emerged during that time was obvious. So were the creative accounting procedures that surfaced at Enron and elsewhere. You are also correct in pointing out that 9/11 wouldn't have been as detremental to the tech bubble, but that bubble was costly to many when it burst. Unfortunately, Clinton was in no way responsible for creating jobs, especially in the private sector. The Bush administration will be directly responsible for creating such jobs. As Dave pointed out, "policies to not tax helped." So just wait till you see what kind of help comes from the Bush sponsored tax cuts. Wow, this economy is well positioned to take off and take off it will. Private sector jobs are going to be come, and as with any recovery they tend to happen later as they lag behind. |
   
tjohn
Citizen Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2123 Registered: 12-2001

| Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 3:54 pm: |    |
Equal nonsense Steam Roller. Presidents, rightly or wrongly, always claim credit for jobs created on their watch. Now in GWB's case, he is mortgaging the future to give the economy some amphetamines today. |
   
lumpyhead
Citizen Username: Lumpyhead
Post Number: 635 Registered: 3-2002
| Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 3:56 pm: |    |
What do politicians know about working in the private sector anyway? |
   
Steam Roller
Citizen Username: Cowboy
Post Number: 304 Registered: 9-2003

| Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 5:38 pm: |    |
And tjohn, precisely what steps do you feel should have been taken instead? Our economy needed to be assisted. Businesses needed help to get jobs created. Next time you get elected POTUS you can try and implement your own measures, that is, if you can get Congress to OK them. |
   
Steam Roller
Citizen Username: Cowboy
Post Number: 305 Registered: 9-2003

| Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 5:39 pm: |    |
Why can't I change my picture? |
   
tjohn
Citizen Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2124 Registered: 12-2001

| Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 5:57 pm: |    |
Steamroller, What I would or wouldn't do as President has no bearing on the fact that GWB is mortgaging the future to get reelected. However, I am sort of an FDR man and believe that a bit more investment in our crumbling infrastructure would be money well spent - schools, bridges, the usual. |
   
tom
Citizen Username: Tom
Post Number: 1844 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 10:44 pm: |    |
quote:Unfortunately, Clinton was in no way responsible for creating jobs, especially in the private sector. The Bush administration will be directly responsible for creating such jobs.
Can someone explain to me why this is not a double standard? Or, even, how it could possibly be true? |
   
bobk
Supporter Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4427 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 6:57 am: |    |
The Clinton administration created an enviornment that allowed economic growth with federal spending growth slowed, balanced budgets, etc. Actually the 90s probably created to much wealth and a lot of it was invested in some really, really dumb ideas, simply because money was looking for a home, thus the dot.com boom. If this was because of prudent government spending, cyclical economics or because the moon wa in Aquarius is an open question. One way or another Bush during his campaign did a wonderful chicken little imitation with his "the economy is failing" speeches. The economy is recovering now. Corporate profits are going up, the stock market is going up, but the recovery is limited. Heck look at the Christmas retail sales. Upscale retailers had double digit sales growth, while companies such as WalMart had very little growth, and there is the job picture, which is pretty bleak. The French guy who ran AMC before Chrysler bought them made the best comment; "The US can't survive selling each other hamburgers, insurance policies and stock certificates". I think he had something there.  |
   
Greatest Straw of all time!
Citizen Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 1821 Registered: 10-2001

| Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 9:21 am: |    |
Tjohn, This future you seemed so concerned with..Allow me to better explain why our future isn't at risk. Please take notes. You're obviously obsessed with the deficit which usually means trouble especially when those obsessed make the laws. I would stress that you keep in mind that deficits matter, but not at the levels you and your liberal minded friends think. Our Gvt debt is at about 50% of the GDP. That's far lower then Europe and Japan. As a result, at this time low taxes matter more to the American economy because as Bush has proven more money in the pockets of Americans leads to more spending and investing by those Americans which lifts the economy. As the economy improves and revenues rise, the deficit can shrink. If the economy fails to improve, there is nothing that can ever be done to reduce the deficit, short of tax hikes that will spin us back into the Clinton recession. The deficit has been on the rise since the last years of Clinton mainly because of a recession, lowered revenues, and of course the 911 attacks which led to massive increase in Defense spending, an area Clinton really screwed the American people with. Yes, worry about the deficit, but worry more about the revenues. Good revenues will lead to a reduced deficit. Thank You.
BUSH/CHENEY IN 2004.. |
   
sbenois
Citizen Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 10646 Registered: 10-2001

| Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 9:25 am: |    |
Strawberry speaks the truth (again). ---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <- Hey, it also wouldn’t look good coming out of a motel with your wife’s best friend saying you were just planning a surprise birthday party for her husband...- Arturo November '03
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tjohn
Citizen Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2126 Registered: 12-2001

| Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 9:32 am: |    |
Debt that is not an investment represents a mortgaging of the future. Period. Debt incurred to improve our infrastructure is an investment for the future. Debt incurred to maintain consumer spending is a mortgage of the future. |
   
eratosthenes
Citizen Username: Eratosthenes
Post Number: 21 Registered: 9-2003
| Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 10:14 am: |    |
Wow, whatever happened to Gramm-Rudman? When did the GOP go over the cliff? Wow. I never thought that in my lifetime I would see the IMF come in to bail out the US govt and lecture it on fiscal discipline. Live long enough I guess and you will see anything, maybe even a man on Mars. Guess which one of these I expect to see first? |
   
Dave Ross
Citizen Username: Dave
Post Number: 6183 Registered: 4-1998

| Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 10:23 am: |    |
A slightly more nuanced persepctive from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._budget_deficit#Impact_on_business
quote:Treasury statistics indicate that foreigners bought 58 percent of the securities that Treasury sold to investors. Some 60 percent of that 58 percent was bought by central banks. A large percentage of that went to the central banks of Japan and China. This exposes the United States to financial or political risk that either bank will stop buying Treasuries - or selling them heavily. This is seen as a very substantial risk by some who study geopolitics and creditary economics. Another risk of possibly even greater magnitude is the possibility that OPEC will begin to price oil in Euros, as Saddam Hussein began to do in 1998 - until this decision was reversed by the 2003 invasion of Iraq. According to economist Henry K. Liu, the 'float' achieved by the necessity of all industrial nations needing to keep a U.S. dollar reserve to hedge against rising prices of oil, is also numbered in trillions of dollars. A shift to a different reserve currency shifts that float as well, and sends those saved dollars back to U.S. shores to be redeemed for goods. This causes inflation, rises in interest rate, and increases in bankruptcy as obligations and assets are called in, to increase flow of cash or goods to the offshore buyers redeeming dollars. The impact of this would likely be to make U.S bonds have to rise in rates to appeal to investors in a thinner market - which would trigger inflation all over the industrialized world, given the central position of the U.S. in it. A round of hyper-inflation is possible that would potentially break Bretton Woods institutions capacity to react. This would be a larger scale repeat of the George Soros attack on the British pound sterling that broke the EU fixed rate exchange system and forced creation of the Euro. Every dollar of increased U.S. public debt, and every rise in interest rates, and every shift in pricing of a major industrial commodity, decreases the cushion available, and increases the potential that the U.S. might default on its own bonds. This would likely mean that U.S. dollar savings would be worth drastically less. Far-fetched as this seems, it happened in Argentina when International Monetary Fund-required measures forced an economic austerity regime that was widely blamed by economists as leading to a meltdown in its currency. Far more serious than either of these questions, which involve 'only money', is the question of the triple bottom line which is the financial, social and natural debt created by exploiting systems with an internal integrity, drawing on them as if they were free. Financial capital is not in general a good guide to social or natural capital flows, and many economists claim it is a contrary - even inherently contrary - process. See uneconomic growth for this discussion in detail. A serious failure in accountability for instance causes loss of social capital which decreases trust essential to commerce and polity, while loss of natural capital causes a reduction in nature's services (such as irrigation or flood control) that must then be made up for by human effort, stressing the human economy. There are no economists who claim that the financial debt or deficit is actually independent of these factors, and very few who claim that economic growth indicators or measures of national income work well enough to rely on them utterly. Thus, the ultimate political risk: collapse of an entire polity, which happened for instance in the collapse of the Soviet Union, or rise of a wholly different political economy, as happened after hyper-inflation in Weimar Germany, with the rise of Nazism.
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bobk
Supporter Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4430 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 10:39 am: |    |
Nice try guys. Taxes in Japan and most of Europe are much higher than in the US, even before the tax cuts, partially to pay the debt service. In another thread there is a nice discussion about the lack of economic growth in Japan as well. Last I checked most EU countries are still in recession. |
   
Reflective
Citizen Username: Reflective
Post Number: 275 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 6:45 pm: |    |
To Dave: The Wikipedia site you linked is a collaborative compilation by readers who can edit any article except for a few home pages. See home page and about Wikipedia. So how do we know that the link you provided above is correct, factual or even relevant? Back to the thread. Clinton cut many federal jobs, mostly military with a significant number of civil positions. However, with the civil jobs more consultants were hired to replace those who left. One of the well known, but little discussed dirty secrets in DC. The miltary downsizing (the so-called peace dividend) was not replaced which is why the Guard and Reserves plus active are pulling back to back tours. |
   
tjohn
Citizen Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2127 Registered: 12-2001

| Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 7:22 pm: |    |
Folks: In the 90's, it was a bit hard to justify a large standing military. That is why there were cutbacks. There wasn't any evil conspiracy to undermine the U.S. We just didn't have an enemy. Even now, it is worth remembering that the attacks of September 11th were possible not for lack of billions of dollars worth of standing armed forces but for lack of a few tens of millions of dollars worth of good intelligence and coordination. |
   
Sylad
Citizen Username: Sylad
Post Number: 167 Registered: 6-2002
| Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 8:09 pm: |    |
The first WTC attack happened in the 90's as well as the attacks on our embassies in Africa. Regarding job growth, unless the administration creates a public works program it is up to the public sector. I work at a Fortune 300 company, we need to hire but we wont because there is too much pressure on earnings. Adding headcount will cut profit, our customers and partners are in the same boat. The employment expansion will come from the SMB market and will take time to show the upward trend, but during the next 6-9 we will see jog growth. Job growth is a lagging indicator of a recovering economy. |
   
Reflective
Citizen Username: Reflective
Post Number: 279 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 8:57 pm: |    |
Sylad 1993 to be exact, I was in the WTC PATH 30 minutes before that one also. But don't you remember, our admin considered that a criminal act. Well, one of those "criminals" lived about a mile from my house in Maplewood, and his family walked and shopped the same stores our families did. Sorry TJohn there was and is a very foccused extremist islamic effort to destroy this country and a few others. A conspiracy? More like a way of life among them. There is also a very foccused attitude of denial among many americans as well. |
   
tjohn
Citizen Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2128 Registered: 12-2001

| Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 9:01 pm: |    |
Reflective, Reread my post. I said that there was no evil (for Bushista's, read Democratic) conspiracy to reduce the size of our military. Obviously, there have been and continue to be extremists groups plotting violence. I would suggest that Bin Laden doesn't really want to destroy America. He wants Western influence out of the Islamic world. It is approximately as futile a cause as trying to destroy America, but it is useful to understand his goals. |
   
Reflective
Citizen Username: Reflective
Post Number: 280 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 9:08 pm: |    |
tjohn Do you think that capturing and killing many terrorist leaders as reported have made any impact on their ability to carry out major violence against american and british interests? Has the fact we have brought the war to their mideastern backyard helped Lybia, Pak, Turkey refocus on their own security, and the extremist threat? |
   
tjohn
Citizen Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2129 Registered: 12-2001

| Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 9:11 pm: |    |
The defeat of the Taliban in Afghanistan was a major inconvenience for Bin Laden. International police action and various hits on terrorists leaders have been effective. Invading Iraq - well, so far, I would guess our invasion is working to Bin Laden's benefit. |
   
Reflective
Citizen Username: Reflective
Post Number: 282 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 9:24 pm: |    |
Agree with your first point. I would amend your second to read, intl police action led or trained by US or Brit Spec Ops have been very effective. and cooperation between almost all intelligence services is at the most effective it has been in years. Your third point - well, let's just say I disagree. A peek into the future: There is background noise about a spring offensive against our troops, from Iran and Syria, not the countries, but their terrorist proxies. New question: If that does occur (I hope it doesn't), what consequences do you expect for -first Iran and second - syria? |
   
tom
Citizen Username: Tom
Post Number: 1846 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 10:44 pm: |    |
On 9/11, even what military might we did have was left on the runway, as a hit on the Pentagon was allowed to happen nearly an hour after it had all begun. No conspiracy theories here, just a comlaint about pure incompetence. Our military was plenty strong to take care of Afghanistan when the time came. |
   
tom
Citizen Username: Tom
Post Number: 1848 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 10:55 pm: |    |
So when ARE we planning on working down that national debt? Straw and sbenois agree that lower taxes eventually lead to higher revenues, and therefore the deficit disappears. OK. I'm going to concede that that's true. So what do we do with the surplus? We were in this situation not so long ago. The Treasury was buying back bonds, the 30-year was elminated, the deficit was shrinking. A certain Republican was elected President and decided that surplus should go back to the people. Now we're running huge deficits. So let's concede then that the tax cuts are made permanent, the economy booms, and we find ourselves with a surplus again 12 years down the road. (Note: This could be 1998. The Reagan cuts could have been the first ones) What then? Recent history indicates that, if Republicans are in control, there will be more tax cuts and we'll go into deficit land again with the promises that it will spur the economy and the deficits will disappear. And so on. So when, exactly, do we decide to knuckle down and pay off a substantial portion of the debt? My sense is that, with the GOP, the answer is never. And my sense also is that the reason why is that the "drown in the bathtub" Norquist crowd are calling the shots, and lying about their intentions. |
   
bobk
Supporter Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4436 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 5:21 am: |    |
It should never be forgotten that it was Bush who changed the "Two War Doctrine" in the early days of the administration. This doctrine called for the military to be able to fight two Iraq size wars at the same time and was never given up on by Clinton. And didn't the change over to a high tech military begin in the 1990s? Ir did Bush accomplish this in two years? Don't think so. And then there is the stunning war plan for Afghanistan, which also had been prepared by Clinton. Look, I feel Clinton was to reluctant to pull the trigger and his capitulation in Somalia was unexcusable. However, as former Governor Kean said, I believe, in connection with the 911 investigation, "there will be enough blame to go around.", I am not, btw, 100% sure on that quote attribution. |
   
tjohn
Citizen Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2130 Registered: 12-2001

| Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 8:58 am: |    |
Reflective, Re: "A peek into the future: There is background noise about a spring offensive against our troops, from Iran and Syria, not the countries, but their terrorist proxies. New question: If that does occur (I hope it doesn't), what consequences do you expect for -first Iran and second - syria?" Is this background noise from Karl Rove as part of his strategy to ensure GWB's democratic election this time around? Assuming that Iran or Syria had such plans, why would they wait for spring. The climate in that area is such that military or terrorist activity is possible year round. Then there is the question of motive. I can't imagine why Syria would want to dabble in Iraqi affairs when it is obvious that the U.S. would react poorly. Iraq isn't Lebanon where Syria's interests are more understandable and pressing. In any event, I expect that both Iran and Syria are susceptible to international pressure. Bashir Assad is no madman. Iran has an interesting internal political struggle underway that creates possibilities for political pressure. One thing is for sure and that is that we cannot occupy an additional country, particularly one the size of Iran. Were we to do that, it could be said that Bin Laden would have us right where he wants us - both hands and both feet stuck in de Tar Baby. |
   
United STRAWBERRY of America
Citizen Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 1825 Registered: 10-2001

| Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 10:24 am: |    |
Tom, In my opinion two strategies can work to reduce the deficit. 1) extend tax cuts that would otherwise expire which will spur the economy even more so. 2)Seek to limit the growth of spending that Congress must approve each year, probably to 4 percent or less. As a resut, By 2009 or so we can reduce the deficit by 1/2 it current figure. I pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.
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wharfrat
Citizen Username: Wharfrat
Post Number: 930 Registered: 6-2001
| Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 11:10 am: |    |
1) extend tax cuts that would otherwise expire which will spur the economy even more so. 2)Seek to limit the growth of spending that Congress must approve each year, probably to 4 percent or less. Outside of short term stimulus, where is there correlation supporting the efficacy of long term tax cuts and economic stimulus? To limit budget growth to 4% or less, what do you propose should be cut from the budget? BTW, while I,m not going to hold my breath, I'm waiting for the Supreme Court to strike the God reference in the pledge. Obviously.
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tom
Citizen Username: Tom
Post Number: 1849 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 11:57 am: |    |
Yes, but my question is, what happens a few years after that if we're fortunate enough for it to turn into a surplus? Are we going to start paying down the debt, run a balanced budged and let the debt expire naturally 10 years after that, or put into place another round of tax cuts? |
   
sbenois
Citizen Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 10652 Registered: 10-2001

| Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 4:11 pm: |    |
What the hell. We're going to press for tax cuts ok Tom? ---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <- Hey, it also wouldn’t look good coming out of a motel with your wife’s best friend saying you were just planning a surprise birthday party for her husband...- Arturo November '03
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United STRAWBERRY of America
Citizen Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 1828 Registered: 10-2001

| Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 8:55 am: |    |
Wharfie, I've always said the education system in our nation needs an overhaul. I think serious cuts in education is where we should begin. Think about it. Teachers are the only profession where individuals are judged based on years of service rather than abilities. I would suggest cutting back aid to schools and using a new system that awards teachers almost like a salesman earns commission. In other words, at the end of the year children are tested nationwide. The results of those tests then give bonuses to teachers whose students have a) the highest test scores or b) show the most improvement from year to year. If we overhaul the educational system, root out the teachers that aren't capable and with a new bonus system get in some new young aggressive blood we can accomplish two things. 1) Cut the federal budget and 2) improve the rotting school system and lousy teachers that currently come with the system. That should answer your question. Oh, to do this we need to destroy the teachers union as well. I pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.
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tom
Citizen Username: Tom
Post Number: 1852 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 10:12 am: |    |
Consider this well-worn phrase: Teach To The Test. Compare and contrast this practice with traditional teaching methodologies. When these kids grow up and enter the workforce, are they going to take tests, or have jobs that require them to think? As I try to indicate to my own kids, in life everything is a word problem; but it's never written down for you and you don't get multiple choices handed to you. You've got to figure out what the problem is and come up with your own set of solutions. Tests are stupid. |