| Author |
Message |
    
aquaman
Citizen
Username: Aquaman
Post Number: 168
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2004 - 12:32 am: |     |
[ Deleted ]
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ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 2371
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2004 - 8:48 am: | |
Besides being all wet, doesn’t this subject belong in the Soapbox: All Politics section? |
sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 10666
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2004 - 8:54 am: | |
I think we're suppoosed to guess why he won't be re-elected.
Who wants to go first?
---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <-
Hey, it also wouldn’t look good coming out of a motel with your wife’s best friend saying you were just planning a surprise birthday party for her husband...- Arturo November '03
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Grateful Straw
Citizen
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 1881
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2004 - 9:02 am: | |
He won't get re-elected because he was in office when our taxes killed us. As a result, he too will be punished by the voters.
Look for awhile at the China Cat Sunflower proud-walking jingle in the midnight sun Copper-dome Bodhi drip a silver kimono like a crazy-quilt stargown through a dream night wind.
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bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4496
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2004 - 9:09 am: | |
Art, I think that Jamie and Dave set up the new politics thread for National issues, which were taking over the soapbox area. This probably should be in the Mostly Maplewood section, but that doesn't get a lot of play.
The question is will Mr. Huemer even get the party nod for his reelection campaign, as was the situation with Vic and Jerry last year. |
Grateful Straw
Citizen
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 1884
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2004 - 9:12 am: | |
"The question is will Mr. Huemer even get the party nod for his reelection campaign, as was the situation with Vic and Jerry last year."
I sure hope not. From what I hear, he's a blind liberal like his 2 former partners in politics.
Look for awhile at the China Cat Sunflower proud-walking jingle in the midnight sun Copper-dome Bodhi drip a silver kimono like a crazy-quilt stargown through a dream night wind.
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tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2165
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2004 - 9:20 am: | |
Straw,
You can't possibly be equating the tax reval with liberalism. That was a bit more about compliance with the law. Had the beneficiaries of the reval understood the situation earlier, they would have sued for a reval and won.
Of course, if you are equating liberalism with compliance with the law, judging from the dubious legal behavior the Bush Administration, you might be on to something. |
Grateful Straw
Citizen
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 1885
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2004 - 9:31 am: | |
I'm just saying that liberals as a general rule aren't very smart. Some may even suffer some form of brain damage. This could be the reason they say some of the utterly mornoic things we hear, like "this cold weather is just another example of global warming." or things like "Why should the rich get to keep their money?"..You know, idiotic comments like that.
Now, I'm not saying Huemer is any of these things because I never met him. However, he certainly was stupidified along with Vic & Jerry during the reval. As a result, I don't see him holding office. Maybe I should run against him. (The time may be right)
And another thing, should his name not be spelled Humor? I think it would make more sense.
Look for awhile at the China Cat Sunflower proud-walking jingle in the midnight sun Copper-dome Bodhi drip a silver kimono like a crazy-quilt stargown through a dream night wind.
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Dave
Citizen
Username: Dave
Post Number: 6273
Registered: 4-1998
| | Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2004 - 11:27 am: | |
Topic moved to Politics area. |
Hank Zona
Citizen
Username: Hankzona
Post Number: 943
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2004 - 11:47 am: | |
so we have an anonymous poster and a deleted post telling us why Dave Huemer wont get re-elected..someone's really going out on a limb on this one. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 1883
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2004 - 12:02 pm: | |
Straw, you should meet Dave. He's not hard to find. Very smart, very accessible, and very responsive to his constituents. I buttonholed him once about something I hoped his office would be able to help us with, and he followed up immediately and thoroughly.
Isn't that what you want in a local government person? Someone who returns your calls, remembers your name, and follows through? |
Grateful Straw
Citizen
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 1888
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2004 - 12:48 pm: | |
The night my car got stolen, you remember that one?, well anyway David was at the table next to me. I didn't want to bother him, you know ask him anything that night cause he was with family. Anyway, I'm in the men's room and He walks in. So, I say to him hey Man, and he said hello.
10 seconds later I'm in the parking lot and the car is gone. 
Anyway, he seemed like a nice enough guy..YOU'RE RIGHT TOM!
You know what I'm going to do. I swear from this day forward I will be part of the re-elect Huemor team!" (unless ajc runs against him)
}}
Look for awhile at the China Cat Sunflower proud-walking jingle in the midnight sun Copper-dome Bodhi drip a silver kimono like a crazy-quilt stargown through a dream night wind.
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ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 2372
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2004 - 12:55 pm: | |
Bob,
IMHO, politics, regardless of what level, is still politics and this thread is now where it belongs.... Someone is bound to bring Bush or Clinton into the Huemer conversation sooner or later anyway...
BTW, David is the senior man on the committee. He is also very personable, knowledgeable, and qualified to serve. We’ll have to wait and see whether there remains enough support for his liberal tendencies. It’s interesting to note that the powers that be within the TC agreed to have him stay on a second year as Vice Mayor. I'd have to believe that it sent a mixed message to the rest of the Profeta group, no?
That decision of course would have in large part hinged on whether or not Ian felt he wanted the position, or whether he plans to run for a second term himself?
Either way, a lot will depend on who else in the Profeta organization is sitting in the wings. I believe there are several very loyal, qualified, and worthy choices… How the voting shapes up between the present committee, on some very important pending issues, will certainly play a big part of who stays and who goes as well.
The selection process should be very interesting again this year, and my guess is it won’t be long before the next card is played... |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 2373
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2004 - 1:15 pm: | |
.... thanks Straw. Listen, there's not much chance of that happening, at least not this year.
Between the Rotary Club, the Maplewood Concierge, the Men's Glee Club, the CBAC, and a few other organizations, my own repo business, the B&B, my wife’s new salon, the new Performers Cafe venture, and needing to get away and use up over eight weeks of banked time share, I believe I may already have more on my plate than I can handle.
Oh yea, and all the MOL posts, plus trying to stay ahead of Prissy Boy....
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anon
Citizen
Username: Anon
Post Number: 943
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2004 - 5:06 pm: | |
My guess is that David will have no problem and that there will be no contest for the Democratic nomination. The four other members of the TC voted for him as Vice Mayor. They appointed him as rep to the joint-meeting. The Profeta group has four seats. Why anatagonize Huemer's supporters and risk a contest the following year when Fred and Ian are up for re-election.
Since David was not on the TC during the reval, there is no strong antipathy to him. Now that Fred is Mayor it is probably in his best interest for things to be quiet. |
Grateful Straw
Citizen
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 1891
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2004 - 6:35 pm: | |
UH OH,A NAIL IN HUEMOR'S COFFIN....ANON IS PREDICTING A WIN.
Art, the glee club???
Look for awhile at the China Cat Sunflower proud-walking jingle in the midnight sun Copper-dome Bodhi drip a silver kimono like a crazy-quilt stargown through a dream night wind.
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sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 10670
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2004 - 6:42 pm: | |
I am running against Mr. Huemer.
---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <-
Hey, it also wouldn’t look good coming out of a motel with your wife’s best friend saying you were just planning a surprise birthday party for her husband...- Arturo November '03
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anon
Citizen
Username: Anon
Post Number: 945
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2004 - 6:54 pm: | |
Do you have a problem with my predictions? Would you care to make a small wager? |
anon
Citizen
Username: Anon
Post Number: 946
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2004 - 6:55 pm: | |
Sbenois, In the Primary for the Dem nomination? |
harpo
Citizen
Username: Harpo
Post Number: 1096
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2004 - 10:34 pm: | |
Sbenois, or are you forming an independent Hysterically Afraid About Everything party? (Bumper stickers with a screeching Chicken Little on them?) Might work. |
sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 10671
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, February 1, 2004 - 12:38 am: | |
Dearest Harpo,
I hate to break the news to you but I'm not hysterically afraid of anything, not even the deer that continue to munch their way through our lovely town.
I think that Mr. Huemer needs to be challenged so that we may judge whether his intentions are geared towards serving Maplewood's needs first or whether they are focused on a bigger and far more personal political agenda.
As the proud owner of DVDs of every TC meeting that has taken place since 1/1/2002, I am so very pleased to be in a position to build an interesting and fact based campaign for my constituents.
Besides, my war chest is far larger than his (it's not even close, trust me) and I've got much better ideas than he does when it comes to campaigning. I'm still eager to follow through with my idea to have every lawn in town trimmed in a way that says SBENOIS FOR TC '04. No grass on a particular lot? Not a problem: I've contracted with Arturo Enterprises to use his magic flatbed truck from which Ed May will be throwing grass seed in the perfect arrangement.
I even got Ed to agree that he won't try any trickery that results in Bush '04 growing on any lawns other than his, mine and Strawberry's.
It's all figured out Harpo.
---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <-
Hey, it also wouldn’t look good coming out of a motel with your wife’s best friend saying you were just planning a surprise birthday party for her husband...- Arturo November '03
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bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4498
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, February 1, 2004 - 5:09 am: | |
Art, apparently Dave agrees. He moved the thread.  Personally I would like to separate Town and National political threads, but it ain't my board. LOL
As far as David is concerned, I think it would be a healing move to give him the committee endorsement. At this point he is the only member of the TC left from the previous administration and I think he is a hard working guy, as evidenced by his collecting signatures at the train station at 6:00am on school funding.
Sometimes little things count.
And Sbenois, if you run for TC you are going to have to join the real name crowd. Or are you going to campaign as Zorro in a mask. |
Grateful Straw
Citizen
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 1894
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, February 1, 2004 - 10:49 am: | |
If Sebonis runs, he will have my support in any way, shape or form he desires.
This guy has the goods, so I hope ole Sebonis really considers this.
Look for awhile at the China Cat Sunflower proud-walking jingle in the midnight sun Copper-dome Bodhi drip a silver kimono like a crazy-quilt stargown through a dream night wind.
|
anon
Citizen
Username: Anon
Post Number: 948
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, February 1, 2004 - 1:08 pm: | |
Straw: You mocked my prediction. I laid down a challenge. You have yet to respond. What are you afraid of? Put your money where your key board is!
Sbenois: For real? In the Primary? or just here on line? |
Grateful Straw
Citizen
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 1898
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, February 1, 2004 - 2:23 pm: | |
$50.00 BUCKS David loses..Ok, Anon?
David wins you get $50.00, he loses I get $50.00..
Look for awhile at the China Cat Sunflower proud-walking jingle in the midnight sun Copper-dome Bodhi drip a silver kimono like a crazy-quilt stargown through a dream night wind.
|
Dave
Citizen
Username: Dave
Post Number: 6275
Registered: 4-1998
| | Posted on Sunday, February 1, 2004 - 2:25 pm: | |
I'll handle the anonymous transaction for a 10 percent cut. |
harpo
Citizen
Username: Harpo
Post Number: 1097
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, February 1, 2004 - 2:29 pm: | |
Sbenois,
You'll have to live down all your hysterical posts in screaming capital letters about "WMD" and any number of issues, let alone the deer, to persuade me your the kind of cooperative, level-headed person town leadership requires. I have to wonder, in fact, how much of this impending "challenge" of yours is simply an inability to give up a vituperative grudge against David for his vote on the Iraq resolution (a vote that was not only prescient but displayed an admirable understanding of what being a public servant actually means when it is crunch time). On this board, across a whole range of issues, you've shown virtually no ability to tolerate views other than your own or express your disagreements civilly. Nor have you shown any particular insight into the substance of town issues,for all your picture taking an dvd's. You generally express yourself in a way I find both hostile and crude, and your interest in dominating as much as you can, almost obsessively, is a reason to hope you and the Great Strawberry stick to MOL as your rant venue of choice.
I have no idea whatsoever whether David Huemer is interested in holding higher office. I've never once asked him -- but he is so accessible, friendly and honest, I'm sure if I did I'd get an honest answer. I am certain he is very qualified to hold higher office and we are simply lucky to have him here: He has a great gift to absorb complex information at lightning speed. He also has a great gift to keep his eye exactly on the ball. He also has the cojones to stick with what he factually has concluded is best for this town financially and politically even when the popular thing to do would be to go with the prevailing winds, and in the face of crude attempts to smear him.
Alone among the current members of the TC, David has put real elbow grease into addressing the one issue with the most impact on the well-being of town residents: the property tax system. It is a constant puzzle to me the other members of the current TC do not grasp the importance of it and that they avoid making it their priority as well, chasing down band-aids instead. (Could it be some of them are angling for bigger prizes, like absorbing South Orange and ruling it?) They misread the state politics and they misread the realities. But David really gets the picture.
It would be a real loss not to have David in elected office, working on behalf of this town as smartly and energetically as he has.
I hope those responsible for re-nominating him look beyond petty personal agendas, old grudges and emotionalism and do the right thing for the town.
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sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 10673
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, February 1, 2004 - 2:49 pm: | |
Dearest Harpo,
Please reread your post and tell me who engages in hysterics.
---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <-
Hey, it also wouldn’t look good coming out of a motel with your wife’s best friend saying you were just planning a surprise birthday party for her husband...- Arturo November '03
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sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 10674
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, February 1, 2004 - 3:04 pm: | |
By the way Harpo, I think you need to reread my posts because I think you've seriously mistaken Double size bond fonts (not screaming) for DOUBLE SIZE BOLD CAPITAL LETTER FONTS (screaming)
99% of the time, I use the former.
---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <-
Hey, it also wouldn’t look good coming out of a motel with your wife’s best friend saying you were just planning a surprise birthday party for her husband...- Arturo November '03
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Dave
Citizen
Username: Dave
Post Number: 6277
Registered: 4-1998
| | Posted on Sunday, February 1, 2004 - 3:07 pm: | |
Both are screaming. |
jeffl
Citizen
Username: Jeffl
Post Number: 329
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, February 1, 2004 - 4:27 pm: | |
Harpo, re: David I couldn't agree with you more. He is smart, hard-working, caring, dedicated, and appears to be working well with the current TC. He certainly deserves to be re-elected. |
anon
Citizen
Username: Anon
Post Number: 949
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, February 1, 2004 - 4:57 pm: | |
Straw: You're on. |
anon
Citizen
Username: Anon
Post Number: 950
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, February 1, 2004 - 4:58 pm: | |
Dave: Good idea! You get $5.00 to handle it! |
Grateful Straw
Citizen
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 1902
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, February 1, 2004 - 5:19 pm: | |
LIKE TAKING CANDY FROM A BABY.
Look for awhile at the China Cat Sunflower proud-walking jingle in the midnight sun Copper-dome Bodhi drip a silver kimono like a crazy-quilt stargown through a dream night wind.
|
harpo
Citizen
Username: Harpo
Post Number: 1099
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, February 1, 2004 - 9:45 pm: | |
Sbenois,
You got me there: I look at as few of your posts as possible.
Hysterically or not, I'm going to send my $50 to David Huemer's re-election campaign. If the worst thing that can be said about him is that he is material for higher office -- wow, how worrisome Huemer just might be an improvement on what we've got in Trenton -- I'm definitely going to swim against the tide that wants to ensure mediocrity rules in Maplewood and the state.
When Fred Profeta lost to David Huemer, he graciously and quite accurately said: "He's a class act." I don't hear sbenois or straw providing us with any compelling justifications to go from class act to class clown.
Maybe I should start a thread called "Devolution?"
Or maybe I should quit before Dave suspends my account.
But mainly I'm going to desist in deriding the idea of sbenois' candidacy lest somebody think my dyspepsia about it has anything to do with David Huemer, who is an immensely likeable, approachable and affable public servant, without a trace of narcissism. |
sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 10676
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, February 1, 2004 - 10:23 pm: | |
Yeah, why don't you quit before I remind everyone that you think Eddie Izzard is the King of Comedy while you deride Abbott and Costello and the Three Stooges.
---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <-
Hey, it also wouldn’t look good coming out of a motel with your wife’s best friend saying you were just planning a surprise birthday party for her husband...- Arturo November '03
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steel
Citizen
Username: Steel
Post Number: 404
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Monday, February 2, 2004 - 10:32 am: | |
Dear Harpo,
I am able to largely agree with you about David although I confess that I had to look up "vituperative" and "dyspepsia". I think I shall add them both to my bar-fight insults such as; "Oh yeah, well you're a vituperative, dyseptic, coprophageous, sycophant!"
I'm also enjoying the word "totemic" lately, (as in tattoo) but that is not particularly insulting. Oh well. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 824
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 2, 2004 - 10:38 am: | |
From what I can tell, the differences between "New Democrats" like Profeta et al and supposed older democrats like David Huemer is nil. Please advise me on concrete substantive differences between one democrat and another in Maplewood regarding schools, funding of services and taxes and stupid anti-war resolutions.
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Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1954
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 2, 2004 - 10:47 am: | |
cjc, I think the answer to your question is higher up in this thread.
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
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cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 826
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 2, 2004 - 10:59 am: | |
Tom -- no it's not. He's for addressing property taxes. Art Carney had Jackie Gleason address a golf ball with "hello, ball!" That means nothing.
The rest I see is David works hard and is a nice guy. So was Harold Stassen. So what?
If you could tell me what the differences are, I'd appreciate it. |
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1955
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 2, 2004 - 11:02 am: | |
I'm too new to town to know enough, but I have been learning. Why don't you start out with what you'd like the TC to do?
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
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lumpyhead
Citizen
Username: Lumpyhead
Post Number: 654
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, February 2, 2004 - 11:44 am: | |
David is an incumbent. I assume he will run on this record. Does anyone know what he has accomplished while serving on the TC?
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cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 828
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 2, 2004 - 12:00 pm: | |
Or how about what have Democrats accomplished for Maplewood? As regards David, what has he supported that the rest of the TC has opposed -- and vice versa? I seem to recall that most votes of the TC are unanimous (I heard that in a debate here in Maplewood once).
Is there a distinction without a difference with democrats? |
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 1956
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 2, 2004 - 12:26 pm: | |
You could replace the word "Democrat" with the word "committee member" or whatever the official title. The question would stand, and I hope you agree.
In any case, is there a public record of what the TC has done?
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
|
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 1893
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, February 2, 2004 - 12:42 pm: | |
Nobody at the TC level is going to be able to lower your taxes to an extent that it would make a big difference to your lifestyle. Accept it.
Cell towers, trimming the school budget and all the TQM you could ever want is just nickels and dimes. Unless we bulldoze your block and build an office park for pharmaceutical companies we still won't have any big commercial ratables.
If you want anything substantial it's going to have to happen at the state or federal level.
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the feds to come around with big block grants for the northeast right now, so it's going to have to be Trenton. |
lumpyhead
Citizen
Username: Lumpyhead
Post Number: 655
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, February 2, 2004 - 12:47 pm: | |
Tom- You are right but I don't think anything is going to happen in Trenton either after McGreevy's remarks about consolidation.
Off the top of my head, I think Heumer voted to continue rent control. |
sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 10684
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 3, 2004 - 11:25 pm: | |
Alone among the current members of the TC, David has put real elbow grease into addressing the one issue with the most impact on the well-being of town residents: the property tax system.
Mr. Huemer has also been on the TC the longest so he's got more grease on his elbows than the rest of them. In fact, what's odd here Harpo, is that you seem to be taking even Kathy and Mr. Patterson to task for their failure to grasp this issue during their first 34 days in office. Way to go sport.
It is a constant puzzle to me the other members of the current TC do not grasp the importance of it and that they avoid making it their priority as well, chasing down band-aids instead.
A constant puzzle? Sing it with me Harpo: K&K have been in office for exactly 34 days. You must need longer puzzles. You also need to consider that the others were in the voting minority until earlier this year. Nice cheap shot though.
(Could it be some of them are angling for bigger prizes, like absorbing South Orange and ruling it?)
An ever better cheap shot. The TC makes a solid effort to try and find joint services where they may find expense reductions and you turn it into a slap. Are you aware that Mr. Huemer two years ago spoke at length about exploring joint services? I suppose that you must know that already so you needn't hear it from someone as out of touch as Sbenois.
They misread the state politics and they misread the realities.
The reality is that the TC this year, next year and for the foreseeable future need to find expense reductions. So their efforts with S.O. in trying to make something happen are quite real. What I've never understood is why there seems to be a lack of the same effort on the Millburn side.
But David really gets the picture.
He sure does.
But do YOU??
---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <-
Hey, it also wouldn’t look good coming out of a motel with your wife’s best friend saying you were just planning a surprise birthday party for her husband...- Arturo November '03
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harpo
Citizen
Username: Harpo
Post Number: 1107
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 4, 2004 - 12:03 pm: | |
sbenois,
I've talked with Ken about Maplewood tax issues for as long as I've known him, which is several years longer than 34 days. I also followed the last two lengthy campaigns in which Kathy Leveanthal ran, and I never heard or saw her mention that working to change the law in Trenton would be one of her priorities. Maybe I just missed it. I'm sure (I hope) both of them have been thinking about this for more than 34 days anyway. That's not too much to ask of any person who puts themselves forward for the TC.
When I spoke to Fred last autumn about this issue he told me he thought getting property tax reform at the state level was "impossible" for the foreseeable future (he may have since changed his mind). And if you check your collection of DVDs, you'll see Fred has not in the past been an enthusiast for a constitutional convention for tax reform. If Ian thinks getting property tax reform out of Trenton is the most important issue facing Maplewood, I've never heard him say so. Only David talks that way and acts that way. I openly and privately have urged the others would put more of their focus on it. None of them seem incapable of handling the disagreement or the criticism.
My "slap" in speculating about people looking for bigger political opportunities was not a slap at efforts to explore saving costs by sharing services with other towns. It was a slap at you for making an unfounded accusation that David Heumer is exploiting the town as part of some sort of unspecified quest for higher office. I was parodying your thinking processes and the perennial suspicion on MOL (against Democrats) that anybody who looks creatively beyond Maplewood for solutions must be a dangerous sort whose political career must be strangled in the crib.
That said, I don't think regionalization or sharing services is going to be anything more than a band-aid for Maplewood with respect to property tax relief and a small one at that. You and James McGreevey may think it is a meaningful approach to property tax relief. Paul Mulshine and Tom Kean Sr. (and I) disagree. I think if Democrats don't listen to the voters and seize control of this issue, Republicans will, and we will end up with a version of Prop 13 in New Jersey that will be very harmful to our high quality of life. I think there is more the local Democrats could and should do to get Democrats in Trenton to end overeliance on property taxes. David Huemer has been OUTSTANDING in demonstrating real leadership in this area.
After initially posting in this thread, I began to think you were probably just joking anyway about running, but thanks for the impetus to air my views on this.
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Crazyguggenheim
Citizen
Username: Crazyguggenheim
Post Number: 511
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 4, 2004 - 12:11 pm: | |
Call me crazy, but hot air is as hot air does.
Call me crazy |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4530
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 4, 2004 - 12:12 pm: | |
Unfortunately property tax reform here is pretty much impossible.
When all the bells and whistles are stripped away if comes down to transfering money from one group (new suburbs) to a handful of older suburbs and increasing the state taxes very significantly. This is unlikely to happen within any of our lifetimes, which is unfortunate.
I admire David for the work and energy he has put into this, but I am very much afraid that he is jousting with windmills. |
harpo
Citizen
Username: Harpo
Post Number: 1109
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 4, 2004 - 12:19 pm: | |
So it's a disagreement, bobk. You've come to a conclusion, that's all. I assume you are sincere in believing it, but I guess I don't need to tell you that you are not god almighy with a perfect gaze into the future of all our lifetimes. Neither am I and no one is. Life is a fluid situation. ;)
My analysis of the situation is that we will probably see statewide tax reform in the next 7 years. And if Democrats don't get off their rears and do it, Republicans will do it for them.
You can say David is jousting with windmills, and I can say you are operating on outdated assumptions, but finally this is a populist issue. The Democrats are going to have to relocate their populist instincts and reconnect with the voters if they don't want to get run over by this issue. The train is already leaving the station.
Besides, there is also something called doing the right thing. I don't think local elected officials should take responsibility for enforcing a system that drives people out of their homes and divides communities politically, often beyond repair. I think local officials should stand up loudly for the interests of at-risk homeowners here and make the moral case. I think that's their yob.
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Dave
Citizen
Username: Dave
Post Number: 6302
Registered: 4-1998
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 4, 2004 - 12:20 pm: | |
True or False:
Trying to change something has a better chance of succeeding than doing nothing. |
harpo
Citizen
Username: Harpo
Post Number: 1110
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 4, 2004 - 12:26 pm: | |
True.
As William James said: "Men seldom hit what they do not aim at."
There is a long and distinguished history in American politics of individuals achieving the what has been deemed politically impossible. It is especially true that the voters have done this. Elected officials grow used to the status quo and get cozy with it. But finally the government is ours and voters can make changes -- for better or worse. That's part of the reason I find David's leadership so important on this issue. He believes, rightly, in the power of voters and he wants to do the right thing, not just the popular thing. |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4531
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 4, 2004 - 12:39 pm: | |
Harpo, how? The history of New Jersey going back to before the revolution when a bunch of earlier Maplewoodian rode the sherrif out of town on a rail when he came up the mountain to collect county taxes has been anti-tax. Look at Jim Florio. Heck, look at McGreevy. Unless the State Supreme Court comes up with something such as the Abbott Districts or Mount Laurel, I just don't see this happening, unless, and this is an important unless, the fine legislators down in Trenton figure out how to put a significant amount of the new taxes into their own pockets.
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lumpyhead
Citizen
Username: Lumpyhead
Post Number: 659
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 4, 2004 - 12:49 pm: | |
Fine. The TC should designate Huemer as the Property Tax Reform guy and let him go for it. Don't blame him if nothing happens because they rest of the NJ counties and towns do not want change, they have fine rateables as it is. If your taxes are too high, then move to a town where they are not is their thought process. No one is forcing you to live here.
Back to reality. What are David Heumer's accomplishments while in office? How did he vote on local issues that he has control over? |
bottomline
Citizen
Username: Bottomline
Post Number: 48
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 4, 2004 - 1:32 pm: | |
I voted for Jim Florio – twice – because I felt he was trying to achieve real tax reform in New Jersey. He had, I believe, figured out the underlying issues, and then set out to shift the state’s finances from property to other taxes. Unfortunately for him (and us) his intellect exceeded his salesmanship. He tried to initiate the property tax shift with an increase in income taxes, largely to improve education, but failed miserably in selling the package to the legislature. By the time he was up for reelection, half the vehicles in the state were sporting “Florio-Free in ‘93” bumper stickers.
So here we are today, wishing for property tax relief and better school funding. If Florio had succeeded, we would now be 10 years down that path, but neither the voters nor the politicians had the courage to really do it. What’s different today?
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harpo
Citizen
Username: Harpo
Post Number: 1112
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 4, 2004 - 1:58 pm: | |
bobk,
Like I said in my previous posts, I think you may be using outdated assumptions. Some things have changed since the Boston Tea Party, and even since the 80s.
In the Star Ledger last week, Tom Kean Sr. said he was interested in passing a law to place a cap on property taxes statewide. I don't know if you read Paul Mulshine, but he is pushing a version of property tax reform, and obviously thinks failure to come up with real property tax reform is a wedge issue against McGreevey. When I spoke with Fred about this issue and he told me reform from Trenton was impossible, he happened to be standing next to Assemblyman John McKeon, so I asked McKeon if he thought it was impossible, and he said no -- although he said he was afraid, as a Democratic politican to get out in front on the issue. Apparently Republicans aren't. You're problem may be that you're thinking like a Democrat!
For several years a number of analysts have said that what is different now is that Republican shore counties are experiencing the same staggering school tax bills that Democratic suburban counties are. (There are fewer places to move to, like lumpyhead suggests.) And there is organized grass-roots efforts toward a Constitutional Convention which have hooked up with dissident Republicans and is supported by the media. To answer botoomline's question, that's what is different today.
It will happen if politicians see that voters are actually prepared to throw them out of office if they don't produce results on this issue. My sense is that the voters are reaching a critical mass in that direction. I don't think the NJ electorate will go anymore than 2 more gubernatorial elections without expecting real progress on this issue. There will be all sorts of institutions opposing a major overhaul of the NJ tax system, that is for sure. But I don't think homeowning voters are powerless. Not by a long shot.
I actually think major property tax reform is inevitable. The only question is how well it is done. I think the politicians who are looking the other way won't have much of a say in the way it is done. I'd like to see property tax reform done in a way that solves Maplewood's problems, not increasing them.
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ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 2394
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 4, 2004 - 2:00 pm: | |
"...but neither the voters nor the politicians had the courage to really do it. What’s different today?"
NOTHING IS ANY DIFFERENT! IT'S ALL ABOUT THE COURAGE TO DO THE RIGHT THING! |
harpo
Citizen
Username: Harpo
Post Number: 1113
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 4, 2004 - 2:04 pm: | |
ajc,
You another Republican for property tax reform? |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4535
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 4, 2004 - 2:25 pm: | |
First off I wish Tom Kean was still the Governor instead of running the 911 Commisssion, which is almost an equally thankless task.
Unfortunately, when all is said and done people are going to vote their pocketbook and funding education through state taxes is in the end going to redistribute the burden to relatively low tax areas. Look at Fringe's site for a list of the truly tax strangled towns and where they are located.
The best hope is to use consumption and sin taxes (which Florio didn't try). Heck if you wanna drive a Expedition, smoke cigarettes or drink like a fish, pay for it!! But, don't feel guilty, you are helping education.
Has anyone figured out how much tax revenue would be needed on the state level to fund say $5,000 per student?
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harpo
Citizen
Username: Harpo
Post Number: 1114
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 4, 2004 - 2:37 pm: | |
bobk,
What people perceive to be in their pocketbook interests is always up for grabs. The GOP has been able to package tax cuts that tilt to benefit the truly wealthy (as you put it -- or "a break at the top" as George Bush put it) to middle and lower class income earners. Who said debates about taxes were honest?
A lot of New Jersey voters would perceive getting a cap on their property taxes as in their pocketbook interests -- and not look beyond that. Kean was talking about that as one measure in a package of other tax reforms, but there may be others who just demogogue the issue.
As for funding education, parents with children in the public schools are indeed motivated voters. But districts where voters repeatedly vote down proposed school budgets in favor of keeping their taxes lower proves there is nothing written in stone about that behavior either.
The end result will be determined by political maneuvering and political talent. I don't think Maplewood can afford not to have a clear political position about what should be done.
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harpo
Citizen
Username: Harpo
Post Number: 1115
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 4, 2004 - 2:39 pm: | |
Am I remembering correctly:
Didn't sbenois make a great show of endorsing Fred Profeta the last time Fred ran because sbenois thought that getting property tax reform out of Trenton was the single most important thing that needed to be done for Maplewood, and Fred would "vomit" best at the politicians in Trenton about just that issue?
I confess I just skimmed the endorsement, but I thought that was the gist.
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ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 2395
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 4, 2004 - 3:02 pm: | |
Harpo,
As you know, I am a Republican, and I would like to see some long overdue property tax reform?
I also agree that major property tax reform is inevitable. I just hope I live long enough to see it...
Maybe, if I find the time after I resolve the B&B issue, the parking on Elmwood Avenue, the location of the new police department, the village parking issues at the train station and in front of Kings, etc. etc. etc., maybe then I'll take on the problem, like no kidding... |
bottomline
Citizen
Username: Bottomline
Post Number: 49
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 4, 2004 - 3:09 pm: | |
My concern about property tax reform is reflected in the old notion that you should be careful what you ask for because you might actually get it. If the legislature were to redistribute all tax burden across the entire state population, a place like Maplewood might come out ahead. But if they shift the property tax burden to income taxes, look out! Maplewood has a significantly higher median household income than the state average – many of us could end up paying more in total taxes.
I’m not saying that’s good or bad, only that it’s not what many of the agitators are expecting. In fact, a shift to income taxes could have some obvious upsides. One would be to give a major break to senior citizens, many of whom flee New Jersey in retirement so as to beat the property taxes. Similarly, it might reduce the incentive to move household (within state) solely to lower property taxes, thus helping stabilize communities.
But, as with all things in life, you don’t get something for nothing. If somebody’s taxes go down, somebody else’s go up. (Except, of course, at the Federal level, where taxes go down and the deficit goes up -- but that’s for another thread.)
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sac
Citizen
Username: Sac
Post Number: 925
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 4, 2004 - 4:24 pm: | |
Yes, but if you retire or become unemployed, your income taxes, unlike property taxes, will then be reduced. That's a big part of the reason why shifting the burden to income taxes would be fairer and should be welcomed even by higher tax-bracket folks. Very few of us can have full confidence of our continued employment in this day and age and I think that most of us hope to retire at some point. Many people would like to stay here when they retire but just can't afford to under the current system. |
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