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sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 10730
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2004 - 7:19 pm: |     |
Just wondering.
---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <-
The Cafe Sbenois is pleased to announce that a fresh batch of Yumsters just arrived thanks to the pinpoint accuracy of the Sbenois Deer Howitzer. Stop in today and ask for one with cheese.
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Nohero
Citizen
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 2867
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2004 - 8:05 pm: | |
Are you talking about, like, real deer, or are you speaking in riddles about MOL posters?
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harpo
Citizen
Username: Harpo
Post Number: 1232
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2004 - 8:08 pm: | |
What herd? Where?
Just wondering.
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harpo
Citizen
Username: Harpo
Post Number: 1233
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2004 - 8:11 pm: | |
It's his other thread that got riddled. You know how protective he can be. |
J. Crohn
Citizen
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 916
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2004 - 10:16 pm: | |
The oversized herd is bad for Prudence [Rhode Island] in a host of ways, the biologists say.
It is responsible for one of the highest rates anywhere of Lyme disease, as well as such other tick-carried diseases as ehrlichiosis and babesiosis.
Approximately one-third of all Prudence Island residents have tested positive for Lyme disease and as recently as the year 2000, some 22 percent of island residents had been exposed to either Lyme disease, babesiosis, or both within the last year.
Studies have shown that reducing the size of a deer herd will cause a corresponding reduction in the prevalence of Lyme disease, the survey authors said.
At the same time, the animals' constant search for food destroys island vegetation and ruins habitat for other creatures, the biologists say. Bushes that provide cover are eaten, trees are stripped of bark, and any gardens not protected by tall fences are devoured. Ground and bush nesting birds are hit especially hard by loss of cover.
East Bay Newspapers, Jan 30, 2004
(http://www.eastbayri.com/story/35806423194553.php)
Bang! Bang!
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sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 10732
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2004 - 10:18 pm: | |
Dearest Harpo,
In my never ending quest to bring you happiness, I'd like you to please sit back with your latte, kick your Doc Martens off, turn off the lights and just dream for a few moments....
Piping hot savory juicy meat cooked to the height of delicious perfection. Do you smell it? Vidalia onions lightly sauteed. remove antlers. Fresh swiss cheese. A golden brown toasted big boy bun.
What is this Sbenois? What?
Harpo, that is a fresh King O' The Hill Yumster cooked just for you in the Cafe Sbenois! It's got your name on it!
Eat Me Harpo. Eat Me!!!
It's calling you!
harpo...oh Harpo...are ya hungry?
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <-
The Cafe Sbenois is pleased to announce that a fresh batch of Yumsters just arrived thanks to the pinpoint accuracy of the Sbenois Deer Howitzer. Stop in today and ask for one with cheese.
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Nohero
Citizen
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 2870
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2004 - 10:44 pm: | |
Okay, so you mean real deer.
For a while there, I though Sbenois was being the Chauncey Gardener of venison ... |
sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 10733
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2004 - 10:47 pm: | |
Why are you always looking for hidden meanings? I want these critters to be killed before they eat everything in town. There is no reason why we shouldn't cull the herd in town. They need it to survive as badly as we need it to protect our shrubs.
---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <-
The Cafe Sbenois is pleased to announce that a fresh batch of Yumsters just arrived thanks to the pinpoint accuracy of the Sbenois Deer Howitzer. Stop in today and ask for one with cheese.
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harpo
Citizen
Username: Harpo
Post Number: 1238
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2004 - 10:48 pm: | |
It's scotch, sb. And with the paucity of deer these days, by some mysterious non-lethal process, you'd have to be dreaming. |
sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 10734
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2004 - 10:50 pm: | |
It's calling you Harpo...
Eat me
---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <-
The Cafe Sbenois is pleased to announce that a fresh batch of Yumsters just arrived thanks to the pinpoint accuracy of the Sbenois Deer Howitzer. Stop in today and ask for one with cheese.
|
Hank Zona
Citizen
Username: Hankzona
Post Number: 960
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Friday, February 13, 2004 - 7:06 am: | |
lets cull the squirrel herd first. |
tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 2271
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 13, 2004 - 7:23 am: | |
You can blame Sbenois for that. For years, people have been begging him to add squirrel to his cafe menu and he refuses to do so. Pretty elitist on his part, I think. I really don't understand his resistance. |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4647
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 13, 2004 - 7:47 am: | |
Notin' like squirrel breast lightly breaded and fried up in bacon grease in a black iron skillet over a campfire down in the hollow!! Yummy, yummy, YUMMY
How I miss West By God Virginy |
J. Crohn
Citizen
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 917
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 13, 2004 - 9:45 am: | |
bobk,
I've got the skillet, some bread crumbs, and a squirrel trap.
Unfortunately, I don't eat bacon. Might a deer render up enough fat to fry us a few squirrel breasts?
If so, bring your assault rifle and I'll meet you down in the holler. |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4653
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 13, 2004 - 9:55 am: | |
Unfortunately venison is very lean. 
However, lard will do in a pinch.
The best way to hunt squirrels is with a .22 equipted with a ten power scope. Head shots only to avoid damaging the meat!! |
notehead
Citizen
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 928
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 13, 2004 - 1:39 pm: | |
I do wonder how the Cafe can offer squirrels on the menu when their Howitzer is apparently the hunting hardware of choice. We're talking about some seriously precise shooting. |
Hank Zona
Citizen
Username: Hankzona
Post Number: 962
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Friday, February 13, 2004 - 3:50 pm: | |
the squirrels around here arent all that small anymore...jacking up the firepower shouldnt be a problem. And I dont doubt they offer squirrel at the sister restaurant in West Virginia (where its pronounced "squirl"). |
Tom Reingold
Citizen
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 2137
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 13, 2004 - 6:53 pm: | |
Doesn't deer hunting only allow killing of bucks? In that case, will that have the desired effect?
Tom Reingold the prissy-pants
There is nothing
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harpo
Citizen
Username: Harpo
Post Number: 1252
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 13, 2004 - 10:53 pm: | |
tom reingold,
In theory it's just the opposite. Culling is supposed to target does or fawns. But in practice the pressure to meet "quotas" means any deer coming into range will get shot at -- and yes, killing bucks is a proven way to increase herd size. Records from deer culls in New Jersey have also shown an alarming tendency to accelerate the reproductive rate of deer no matter which sex gets shot -- meaning, while reproductive rates remain relatively stable with no hunting or "culling," deer more rapidly reproduce when the herd is artificially reduced (because the increased food for the remaining deer appears to produce higher survival rates for multiple embroyos and fawns along with faster sexual maturation for the offspring).
You will now be begged to not ask me any more questions by sbenois and probably others, because I once posted some X hundred posts outlining the absurdity and financial waste of attempting to use hunting as a method of "controlling" deer. Sbenois got so mad at me he's never quite recovered (he's hysterically afraid of deer) and only put up this post because he didn't like what I was saying in his Isreal thread, in order to make fun of my interest in this subject.
I thought you needed to catch up with the local history. I'm sure sbenois has a different version to bore you with.
Deer were quite rampant in Maplewood and New Jersey a few years ago and contrary to the belief only hunting would reduce their numbers, they've quietly disappeared even in areas without any efforts to reduce their numbers, for reasons scientists have yet to determine. The only time one hears about them anymore is when sbenois is annoyed with me. (He's obsessed with me, but I've never figured out why.) |
harpo
Citizen
Username: Harpo
Post Number: 1253
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 13, 2004 - 11:21 pm: | |
Jcrohn,
Cornell University, along with Rutgers, does the premiere studies on deer for this area. As part of its Cayuga Heights Deer Project, it issued this report:
"There is concern over deer as a source of disease, especially Lyme disease. This disease is spread by a tick, and the tick's abundance has been found to be correlated with deer abundance. It has been suggested that the risk of contracting tick-borne diseases can be decreased by reducing local deer densities. However, the Ixodes tick feeds off many other mammals, and deer apparently play little role in infecting the tick with the agents of Lyme disease. In addition, tick infection rates are highly variable, and the rate is very low in Tompkins County. Consequently, while the presence or absence of deer has been found to be of critical importance in determining the abundance and dispersion of the tick, it does not follow that reduction of deer will automatically reduce the incidence of Lyme disease."
http://wildlifecontrol.info/chdp/committee%20report.pdf
Biologists employed by Fish and Wildlife departments (which are the biologist you quoted in your post) should not be regarded as unbiased sources on the benefits of hunting. Their job is to encourage hunting.
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Ukealalio
Citizen
Username: Ukealalio
Post Number: 461
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 13, 2004 - 11:27 pm: | |
I abhor hunting and love Lenny Bruce, should I be concerned ?. |
bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 4662
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, February 14, 2004 - 5:42 am: | |
I think the fact that Millburn culled a number of deer may have some effect on the reduced number of deer in Maplewood.
I think they are coming back, however. Last weekend we had two bucks in our backyard in the middle of the afternoon. One only had one antler, so he probably didn't get any nookie this year.
I finally chased them off when they got close to a lacrosse net and I was afraid they would get their antlers caught and that would be a hell of a mess. Maybe Sbenois got them later with his deer howitzer.? Who knows?
Interestingly like the young doe I saw on our front lawn last summer, both were well nourished to the point of being chubby. |
wharfrat
Citizen
Username: Wharfrat
Post Number: 973
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, February 14, 2004 - 6:38 am: | |
When the weather gets warmer will Cafe SBenois be offering yumster raccoon?
I've always wondered why the Cafe didn't offer a combo yumster platter. |
J. Crohn
Citizen
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 920
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 14, 2004 - 10:11 am: | |
"I abhor hunting and love Lenny Bruce, should I be concerned ?"
Yes. It's only a matter of time before you're accusing historians of immorality whilst simulataneously scolding internet opponents for moralizing.
When you begin crying crocodile tears for the state of Israel, whose right to existence you think should depend on the opinions of people who believe it should never have been created, it will be too late for you.
Better go ahead and drive a stake through your heart now, while you're still honest and your sense of humor is intact. |
J. Crohn
Citizen
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 921
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 14, 2004 - 11:01 am: | |
"Consequently, while the presence or absence of deer has been found to be of critical importance in determining the abundance and dispersion of the tick, it does not follow that reduction of deer will automatically reduce the incidence of Lyme disease."
It nevertheless follows quite logically from what you've quoted, Harpo, that where deer populations are allowed to explode, there will eventually be Lyme disease. Moreover, I've seen no evidence that cases of Lyme occur in significant numbers any place there are no deer. The claim that reducing deer populations might not reduce incidence of Lyme is therefore purely speculative.
By the reasoning of deer advocates, there's no point in slaughtering off cattle that develop mad cow disease, since the prion that causes it also turns up in sheep.
Please ask the "premiere" reseachers at Cornell and Rutgers, (whose work is not on Lyme disease itself, but rather on deer management) to provide you statistics on communities in which there are no deer and there is Lyme disease at rates comparable to communities where there are lots of deer. And I mean over time, not over one year.
This endless nonsense of yours that culling and hunting do not reduce deer populations is also risible. The reason such programs are not always effective is that public pressure keeps them from being implemeted assiduously enough. I guarantee you that if you allow sufficient (and sufficiently unrestricted) killing of deer, year after year, the deer population will go down and stay down, even after the understory recovers and the birds come back to nest.
This is so for every ruminant on the planet. Deer are no different. |
J. Crohn
Citizen
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 922
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 14, 2004 - 11:23 am: | |
Harpo: "Records from deer culls in New Jersey have also shown an alarming tendency to accelerate the reproductive rate of deer no matter which sex gets shot -- meaning, while reproductive rates remain relatively stable with no hunting or "culling," deer more rapidly reproduce when the herd is artificially reduced (because the increased food for the remaining deer appears to produce higher survival rates for multiple embroyos and fawns along with faster sexual maturation for the offspring)."
Oh, puhleeze.
From Harpo's own Cornell/Rutgers cite:
Culling is an effective way to reduce herd size quickly, but can be very controversial. Culling also must be repeated on a regular basis to keep the herd at the desired size. [...] If the Cayuga Heights community desires a rapid and large reduction of the deer population, some form of culling will be necessary.
The report then goes on to say that, given enough community support, a combination of culling and fertility control (which "may be possible if sufficient numbers of deer can be captured and treated" !) could decrease herd sizes and maintain them at manageable levels.
That, of course, would wear off as infertile deer aged and died, bringing the folks in Cayuga Falls back to the beginning of another cycle of culling and sterilization. |
J. Crohn
Citizen
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 923
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 14, 2004 - 11:47 am: | |
"Biologists employed by Fish and Wildlife departments (which are the biologist you quoted in your post) should not be regarded as unbiased sources on the benefits of hunting. Their job is to encourage hunting."
Well, Harpo, they were only quoting the biologists at the Narragansett Bay National Estuarine Research Reserve, whose job is environmental preservation.
This is what the research director and manager of the Reserve have to say on the subject of Lyme:
"Effects of deer on tick abundance and incidence of tick-borne diseases
The relationship between deer density, deer tick abundance, and the incidence of tick-borne diseases is very clear. As deer density increases, so does the abundance of deer ticks, as well as the incidence of Lyme disease, babesiosis, and ehrlichiosis, all of which are caused by tick bites (Krause et al. 2002).
Deer ticks in all developmental stages use deer as hosts, and 95% of all adult deer ticks feed on deer, with the remaining 5% feeding on alternative hosts such as feral cats and raccoons (Wilson et al. 1990). Deer ticks are most abundant where deer density is highest and there is a direct correlation between deer tick abundance and deer scat (Wilson et al. 1985; Anderson et al. 1987). In residential settings, the risk of infection in humans is directly related to deer density (Lastivaca et al. 1989). Thus, it is clear that the risk of becoming infected with a tick-borne disease is directly related to the density of deer; the higher the density, the greater the risk of infection (Krause et al. 2002). It follows then that the most sensible way to reduce the risk of infection is to reduce the density of deer.
Reducing the density of deer, or in extreme cases removing deer entirely, results in a reduction in deer tick abundance over time and as a result, a concurrent reduction in infection. When deer were reduced by approximately 90% on Great Island in Massachusetts, the rate of Lyme disease infection was reduced from over 3 cases per 100 people per year before deer removal to less than 0.2 cases per 100 per year after removal (Wilson and Childs 1997). More specifically, when deer density was reduced to 6-10 mi-2 at this site, the incidence of Lyme disease was reduced by 80% (Telford, personal communication), and ten years after deer removal only one additional case of Lyme disease had been reported (Ebel, personal communication). A similar study in the Crane Reservation in northern coastal Massachusetts examined the effects of a more gradual reduction in deer density on the abundance of deer ticks. At this 2.2-mi2 site, deer were reduced by 82% over a six-year period, from a density of 171 deer mi-2 to a density of 29 mi-2 (from 350 deer, down to 60). This reduction led to a decrease in the average number of larval ticks to about one-half of the level before deer were reduced. Abundance of nymphal ticks also decreased, but not by as much (Deblinger et al. 1993).
Data from the Rhode Island Department of Health showed that in 1989, approximately 29% of Prudence Island’s full-time residents tested seropositive for Lyme disease. In addition, from 1999 to 2000, Prudence Island had a very high percentage of residents that seroconverted to Lyme disease (13%), babesiosis (9%), or both (5%); thus, during this time a total of 22% of Prudence Island residents seroconverted to either one of the tick-borne disease or both. (Krause et al. unpublished data). This is higher but comparable to other sites known to have high rates of exposure such as Block Island (20%) and Brimfield, Massachusetts (15%) (Krause et al. unpublished data). The high rates of exposure on Prudence Island are more alarming given the fact that concurrent infection with both Lyme disease and babesiosis can increase the severity of disease and complicate diagnosis (Krause et al. 2002). Both of these diseases are contracted to humans through the bite of the deer tick, the abundance of which is directly related to deer density." {emphasis added)
http://www.prudenceisland.us/prud/
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sbenois
Citizen
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 10741
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, February 14, 2004 - 12:31 pm: | |
Dearest J. Crohn,
If you really want to ratchet this thread up to the next level, tell her that the deer have ruined the Reservation.
---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <-
The Cafe Sbenois is pleased to announce that a fresh batch of Yumsters just arrived thanks to the pinpoint accuracy of the Sbenois Deer Howitzer. Stop in today and ask for one with cheese.
|
J. Crohn
Citizen
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 924
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 14, 2004 - 3:54 pm: | |
"Stop in today and ask for one with cheese."
Now, see, that gives me an idea.
It is excruciatingly clear that deer in the Res must never be shot, otherwise certain parties will be provoked to suicide-bomb the offices of various state and county officials, not to mention civilians dining at Cafe Sbenois.
Therefore I propose GENETIC ENGINEERING to quickly produce a doe enhanced with massive, balloon-like udders, the better to generate a new product guaranteed to take the world by storm: Deer Cheese!
Yes, I'm saying let's allow the free market to take care of our deer problem.
You wouldn't mind a denuded yard nearly so much if in exchange you received a tidy monthly check from South Mountain Deer Milk Inc., would you? Wouldn't you smile at a handsome discount on deer cheese for topping Yumsters?
Of course if you still objected (however unreasonably) to the regular eradication of your garden, we could simply fence off the reservation and set up a doe-milking factory in the middle of it. Problem solved.
Isn't it time we let loose the microbiologists? I think all they'd need is a clump of deer flesh and some rabbit ova to get started.
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