| Author | Message | ||
     sbenois Citizen Username: Sbenois Post Number: 10700 Registered: 10-2001  |
Sbenois is very troubled. Sbenois understands and supports the Sharon government's need to defend its citizens,. But yesterday's airstrike in which a top Islamic Jihad organizer and his bodyguard were killed also took the life of an 11 year old boy and injured as many as 10 others. Israel has simply got to find a more lawful, less wanton type of justice than launching missiles into crowded streets and hoping that they don't hit or injure anyone but their intended targets. The natural, unfortunate response to this is going to be a few suicide bombs in Tel Aviv and more blood is going to be spilled. Don't get me wrong, I have no sympathy for the murderer who was targeted by the Israelis. I just can't understand why Israel doesn't find alternative methods for removing this guy - and others like him - from circulation. Methods that don't include innocent bystanders being killed. It's very frustrating. ---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <- The Cafe Sbenois is pleased to announce that a fresh batch of Yumsters just arrived thanks to the pinpoint accuracy of the Sbenois Deer Howitzer. Stop in today and ask for one with cheese. | ||
| bobk Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 4578 Registered: 5-2001 |
.......and the group the terrorist belonged to has promised revenge, possibly as early as today with yet more suicide bombers. The endless circle of bomings, revenge, counter revenge, counter counter revenge goes on and few see any hope of a solution. I imagine the Sharon justifies the collateral damage because so many Israelis have died in the suicde bombing campaign. However, like Sbenois, I am troubled by this. It makes it very difficult for Israel to claim the high moral ground imho. | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 2425 Registered: 9-2001 |
Until both sides have peaceful leadership and they are willing to take the high moral ground, this vicious circle of death will continue... | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2212 Registered: 12-2001  |
Sbenois, I assume that you are also troubled by a couple of our attacks on terrorists where innocent bystanders were killed. | ||
| Diversity Man Citizen Username: Deadwhitemale Post Number: 616 Registered: 5-2001 |
Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Tanzim, all terrorists "hiding" in plain sight, financed by Iran and Saudi Arabia, (no longer Iraq), and Arafat and his henchmen refuse to arrest, stop, condemn, limit their goings on, and men, women, children and babies are blown up and killed, burned, limbless, maimed, paralyzed while driving with their families, eating with their families, and not a one is a terrorist. an endless circle only when you equate terror with peace. I don't love my enemy. They cheered when the WTC crashed to the ground. fifty years of UN financed poisonous education of children to kill themselves, corrupt PLO administration, and it is not a circle. It is a dead end. the Israelis have not done enough. DWM | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 2427 Registered: 9-2001 |
"...the Israelis have not done enough." Is that not enough for peace, or for war? | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2213 Registered: 12-2001 |
The Arabs resort to terrorism because they cannot begin to match Israel militarily. So they have a choice which is to resort to terrorism or to accept Israel and get on with life. The majority of Palestinians would prefer to accept Israel and get on with their lives. Unfortunately, a small percentage remain committed to the destruction of Israel. Whether or not Arafat can do more to arrest the terrorists in his midst is an open question. I do not believe that Arafat has the power to stop Hamas and Al Aqsa. The Palestinian state is not particularly well-organized. Even organized states have found it difficult to stop terrorist groups in their midst. Witness our efforts to reign in the KKK and German efforts to stop the Bader-Meinhoff gang. | ||
| anon Citizen Username: Anon Post Number: 957 Registered: 6-2002 |
Tjohn says: "The Arabs resort to terrorism because they cannot begin to match Israel militarily. So they have a choice which is to resort to terrorism or to accept Israel and get on with life." That is their only choice? Really? Ghandi, Mandela and M.L. King found another way. If the Palestinian leadership had adopted those guys' strategy they would now be the leadership of a sovereign Palestinian State. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2216 Registered: 12-2001 |
If the Palestinians had not resorted to terrorism, they would have nothing today. Absent any resistance from the Palestinians, all Israeli governments since 1967 would have let the Greater Israel group have their way. The situation in India was rather different. The British were massively outnumbered and the smarter among the British knew that they ruled at the consent of the Indians. What Gandhi made obvious through peaceful means was they the Indians were withdrawing their consent to be ruled by foreigners. I was not aware that Mandela was a man of peace until after the South African apartheid system was revised under international pressure. In his youth, Mandela was a terrorist. | ||
| anon Citizen Username: Anon Post Number: 959 Registered: 6-2002 |
Tjohn: What do the Palestinians actually have today? On what basis do you say that "all Israeli governments since 1967 would have let the Greater Israel group have its way"? I'm not sure what that way is, but surely there would have always been international pressure in support of the Palestinians. And the point I was trying to make was that resistance doesn't always mean terrorism. | ||
| Ukealalio Citizen Username: Ukealalio Post Number: 431 Registered: 6-2003 |
I don't condone killing civilians in any situation (I also wonder how many of the posters who condemn this act by Israel, look the other way when its the USA). Israel had peaceful leadership, his name was Barak. Most Israeli's I know supported Barak 100%, he got kicked in the teeth by Arafat. After you continuously get blown up while extending olive branches, you start to take a different tact. If the Palestinians really get, peaceful, honest leadership, there can be peace and a Palestinian state. This can't work with only one side working towards peace. | ||
| sbenois Citizen Username: Sbenois Post Number: 10702 Registered: 10-2001 |
Tjohn, "I assume that you are also troubled by a couple of our attacks on terrorists where innocent bystanders were killed." Please focus this for me. Where? Iraq? Afghanistan? Philadelphia? Thankey. ---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <- The Cafe Sbenois is pleased to announce that a fresh batch of Yumsters just arrived thanks to the pinpoint accuracy of the Sbenois Deer Howitzer. Stop in today and ask for one with cheese. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2218 Registered: 12-2001 |
Afghanistan, about a month ago. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2219 Registered: 12-2001 |
Anon, I agree that resistance does not always mean terrorism. Sometimes terrorism is the most effective option and sometimes it is the wrong option. Following the Oslo Agreement, the Palestinians would have been better served by being model citizens than by terrorism. However, without their original terrorism and militancy, I don't think that the Oslo Agreement would ever have come to pass. | ||
| sbenois Citizen Username: Sbenois Post Number: 10704 Registered: 10-2001 |
Links please. ---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <- The Cafe Sbenois is pleased to announce that a fresh batch of Yumsters just arrived thanks to the pinpoint accuracy of the Sbenois Deer Howitzer. Stop in today and ask for one with cheese. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2220 Registered: 12-2001 |
This isn't a direct reference to last month's unintended deaths, but you get the idea. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1740538.stm | ||
| sbenois Citizen Username: Sbenois Post Number: 10708 Registered: 10-2001 |
I think it's regrettable but it's different. ---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <- The Cafe Sbenois is pleased to announce that a fresh batch of Yumsters just arrived thanks to the pinpoint accuracy of the Sbenois Deer Howitzer. Stop in today and ask for one with cheese. | ||
| Ukealalio Citizen Username: Ukealalio Post Number: 432 Registered: 6-2003 |
How's it different ?. I'm not a huge fan of Sharon either but the quetion, "Have the Israeli's done enough for peace or war", is ridiculous. If this was the U.S. attacking a known terrorist, the postings would be overloaded with Jingoistic fury. Makes me think there's another motive to that comment. | ||
| ajc Citizen Username: Ajc Post Number: 2430 Registered: 9-2001 |
Ukealalio, "Is that not enough for peace, or for war?" There was another motive to my QUESTION! Ridiculous? Read it again. I was asking DWM to explain himself further... My question was in response his post, "the Israelis have not done enough." | ||
| joso Citizen Username: Joso Post Number: 164 Registered: 5-2001 |
If the Israelis pulled out of the territories that they illegally occupy, I think that they would garner a god deal more support in the world for their actions to protect themselves. They refuse to do so and it seems clear their intent is to annex large portions of the West Bank. The recent proposal to evacuate Gaza and settle the people in the West Bank is outrageous and will only reinforce this perception. | ||
| Diversity Man Citizen Username: Deadwhitemale Post Number: 620 Registered: 5-2001 |
Not illegally occupied. UN language is "disputed territories." Some times you have to kill, or be killed. Israel is pulling its punches, and death follows its citizens. Restaurants, schools, university cafeterias, homes and cars are attacked, with moms, kids and dads murdered in cold blood. When airplanes slammed into the WTC, the Arabs cheered from their rooftops as innocents were slaughtered. During the 1991 Iraq war, they cheered every missile indiscriminately raining down on Israel. We had one day of it. The Israelis have it every day. Have a nice day. DWM | ||
| Ukealalio Citizen Username: Ukealalio Post Number: 433 Registered: 6-2003 |
ajc-Mea Culpa, I typed faster then I read. joso-Illegally occupied?. Maybe if Israel wasn't attacked right after the U.N. declared it a nation, we all could avoid this mess. Ever been to Israel ?, doubt it. With the waves of terrorist bombers coming into Israel from these disputed territories , it's not so simple to pull out without leaving your people open to more killings. I'm sorry but if your getting attacked from all sides, you could care less about public opinion.I had a niece in Israel till a couple of months ago. She was in Peace Now, which wants Peace at any price, two of her close friends were killed. I hope you never have to deal with something like this but if you do, I have a feeling you wouldn't be criticizing others who are directly threatened. | ||
| sbenois Citizen Username: Sbenois Post Number: 10718 Registered: 10-2001 |
The Israelis are not illegally occupying anything. ---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <- The Cafe Sbenois is pleased to announce that a fresh batch of Yumsters just arrived thanks to the pinpoint accuracy of the Sbenois Deer Howitzer. Stop in today and ask for one with cheese. | ||
| joso Citizen Username: Joso Post Number: 165 Registered: 5-2001 |
So what exactly are they doing with it? The fact is that they have set up a situation on the West Bank that has something to do with security and something to do with fullfilling biblical prophecy. In 67 the immediate states were a threat. Given the strength and resolve of Israels army, and the the not insignificant support of this country, that can no longer be said. Their immediate threat is from suicide bombers. Building a wall on the green line would solve this. The threat to their settlers outside of this zone is a problem of their own making, and should not be solved at the expense of the Palestinians. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1179 Registered: 6-2001 |
The settlements are illegal. I think America's campaign of violence against terrorists puts a high premium on avoiding civilian casualties because the ultimate goal is close and productive relations with non-terrorist peoples in those same lands. There is no similar policy goal for Likud. Ukelalio, just as a general note, it is true that some people change their views when they suffer personal losses, but not everybody does. It is incorrect to just assume another person would change their views if they were injured or had some other experience you think is instructive. There are actually plenty of people in Israel who have lost loved ones to Palestinian violence who don't share your view of the situation at all. | ||
| sbenois Citizen Username: Sbenois Post Number: 10720 Registered: 10-2001 |
Harpo, By which standard have you judged these settlements to be illegal? ---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <- The Cafe Sbenois is pleased to announce that a fresh batch of Yumsters just arrived thanks to the pinpoint accuracy of the Sbenois Deer Howitzer. Stop in today and ask for one with cheese. | ||
| Addy Citizen Username: Addy Post Number: 39 Registered: 12-2003  |
Perhaps harpo meant "illegal" as a figure of speech? | ||
| Ukealalio Citizen Username: Ukealalio Post Number: 438 Registered: 6-2003 |
Harpo-Not sure what your getting at. I know first hand not everyone suffering losses changes their opinion. My niece who lost two friends is one of those people. She is still a firm supporter of Peace Now. In fact one of her friends who was slaughtered, was killed right after a Peace Now demonstration (the Palestinians who killed her knew this too, they could have cared less, they just wanted Jewish blood). It's all very handy to talk about this issue when you have nothing personaly at stake. Maybe you do and have not explained yourself. You also have not explained why you consider the settlements illegal (and personaly I don't support the settlements but these have to be dismantled with security issues in mind and cannot be accomplished overnight). Lastly, your comments about showing restraint in trying to deal with terrorists, tells me you are a little ignorant about Israels methods. As stated in my 1st post, I am against killing civilians. I don't think Israel does everything right but I think they have shown tremendous restraint when faced with a constant barrage of suicide bombers. The suicide bombers have frequently TARGETED, students, children, civilians. When Israel kills civilians ,during a hunt for a known terrorist it is very much the exception, not the rule. Do I think Israel should do more to avoid civilian casualties?, absolutely. Do I think they should stop defending themselves and taking pro-active action to avoid mass murders of their people, NO WAY. Just because the Jews gave the world the 10 Commandments, doesn't mean they should be prevented from protecting themselves. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1204 Registered: 6-2001 |
Many of the settlements were built on land seized by Israel after the 1967 war. This seizure was in violation of U.N. Security Council Resolution 446, which states that Israeli settlements built on land occupied since 1967 "have no legal validity and constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace." Resolution 446 also calls on Israel to observe the Fourth Geneva Convention, which states that an occupying power "shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies." Since 446 was passed in 1979, the U.N. has issued other resolutions "deploring" Israel's failure to comply with it. The need to take firm action against countries that do not honor resolutions passed by the security has become the central theme of the Bush Administrations new-found justifications for invading Iraq. I realize both the US and Israel have led efforts, sometimes successfully, to block recognition that the language of the Geneva Convention can be applied to Israel (which is a signator), but that seems to me be nitpicking in the face of a mountain of evidence that Likud's policies and tactics in the occupied territories violate multiple canons of international law. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1205 Registered: 6-2001 |
Ukelalio, I don't think there is a person on the planet who doesn't have a stake at this point in peace in the Middle East. My point is that people living outside of Israel can see the issues just as clearly, and some even more clearly, than people living inside Israel. I'm sure many people inside Israel do see the issues clearly. My only point is that so can person who doesn't live there. Where you live is irrelevant. You need to re-read my comments about the difference between American policy and current Israeli policy in fighting against terror. I didn't express an opinon on whether Israel had showed restraint. I said it was an explicit goal of the Bush Administration not to politically alienate the citizenry in places where they hunt down terrorists and use violence against them. I know of no such similar policy with Likud. | ||
| Grateful Straw Citizen Username: Strawberry Post Number: 1922 Registered: 10-2001  |
Sounds like Harpo's an anti-semite. Really ashame, this day and age. Bet you can't wait for Gibson's film to hit theaters. Look for awhile at the China Cat Sunflower proud-walking jingle in the midnight sun Copper-dome Bodhi drip a silver kimono like a crazy-quilt stargown through a dream night wind. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2248 Registered: 12-2001 |
When Straw exhausts his arguments, his standard refrain is to call somebody an anti-Semite. | ||
| Grateful Straw Citizen Username: Strawberry Post Number: 1923 Registered: 10-2001 |
That's actually not the case. I didn't participate here at all because I found the topic a waste of my time. However, I did have a chance to review and I had to make it clear to Harpo that his or her opinion is nothing more than Nazi b.s., as far as I'm concerned. If you want to play with fire harpo, you will get burnt. You are playing with fire. I suggest you review Mideast history before slamming the Israeli people. This because you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Look for awhile at the China Cat Sunflower proud-walking jingle in the midnight sun Copper-dome Bodhi drip a silver kimono like a crazy-quilt stargown through a dream night wind. | ||
| Nohero Citizen Username: Nohero Post Number: 2861 Registered: 10-1999  |
I really don't see why Straw has to call Sbenois an anti-Semite, just because Sbenois expressed concern about an Israeli government policy. | ||
| Dave Citizen Username: Dave Post Number: 6373 Registered: 4-1998  |
The nazi comment didn't help either. Another week on the bench. | ||
| Montagnard Citizen Username: Montagnard Post Number: 414 Registered: 6-2003 |
Israel has the most to gain from taking a moral and legal position that enables outsiders to help them, even if this help comes mainly from the U.S. The long term demographic trends in the Middle East are not in Israel's favor. It has also been financially outclassed by the Arab states for quite some time. As it stands, allowing religious fanatics to settle in disputed lands is damaging to the nation's physical security as well as its moral position. It's encouraging to see that even Sharon is willing to acknowledge this. The true friends of Israel want to see these issues resolved peacefully while there is still time. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1216 Registered: 6-2001 |
No, straw, I've never liked stories about lynch mobs. I was thinking about going to The Producers instead. | ||
| Insite Citizen Username: Insite Post Number: 226 Registered: 10-2002 |
Dave, I've seen you go this route before. More reasons why I find your politics a disgrace. | ||
| Dave Citizen Username: Dave Post Number: 6374 Registered: 4-1998 |
Good. I was worried about that. | ||
| Insite Citizen Username: Insite Post Number: 227 Registered: 10-2002 |
you should be. Afterall, this isn't the first time you've allowed the slamming of Israel to take place on your board. This isn't the first time you've suspended a poster for defending the nation's right to exist as well. Tells me more about you than you care to admit. Tells me more about MOL than the town should tolerate. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2251 Registered: 12-2001 |
Insite, He suspended Straw for calling/implying that Harpo was anti-Semitic or a Nazi. The funny thing about those terms is that they are quite potentially counter-productive when used in defense of Israel. The suspension has nothing whatsoever to do with being for or against Israel. | ||
| Insite Citizen Username: Insite Post Number: 228 Registered: 10-2002 |
Tjohn, Why don't you share with the rest of us what exactly the ban was for? For saying the opinions Harpo supports sounds like Nazi propaganda? Like I said disgraceful. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2253 Registered: 12-2001 |
Insite, The ban wasn't for the point of view. That's all I am saying. | ||
| Insite Citizen Username: Insite Post Number: 229 Registered: 10-2002 |
He was suspended because this site seems to have an issue with Israel. So if a Jew such as myself even thinks for one second that a moderator will do his best to balance attacks, They will be sorely disappointed. This world needs more Straw's and less dave Ross's that's for sure. Once again thanks Straw for telling a creep off. Too bad, it got you busted. My sister who was nearly killed in Israel 6 years ago thanks you as well. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2254 Registered: 12-2001 |
Whatever. I believe that I could be as supportive of Israel as I wanted to be or as opposed to Israel as I wanted to be without running any risk of suspension. At times I have argued points with Dave without being suspended. | ||
| vor Citizen Username: Vor Post Number: 172 Registered: 9-2003 |
Dave You probably don't need to be reminded, but just figured this was an opportune time to tell you that you're doing a great job with this board. Unfortunately when you have an open forum such as this one, people with extreme views (see how careful you can be if you try) will always surface. I (we) wish it wasn't so, but alas... Anyway, thank you for doing this as long as you have. | ||
| Dave Citizen Username: Dave Post Number: 6375 Registered: 4-1998 |
Thanks, vor. Insite, your account is gone. Find another messageboard, where you can blame the world's problems on the moderator. | ||
| sbenois Citizen Username: Sbenois Post Number: 10723 Registered: 10-2001 |
Dearest Harpo, When the United Nations becomes an organization where even-handed treatment of its member nations take hold, perhaps I won't laugh at what you wrote. The State of Israel was formed in 1948. It is the only country that is virtually barred from being on the UN Security Council. It has never been in a position, like its Arab neighbors to veto resolutions that it finds at odds with its national security interests. I frankly don't give a rat's ass what the UN says about Israel.
Oh I knew this one was coming. Please see my answer to the last point. I still don't care.
When is the UN going to condemn suicide bombings in Israel? Murder also appears to be against canons of international law. ---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <- The Cafe Sbenois is pleased to announce that a fresh batch of Yumsters just arrived thanks to the pinpoint accuracy of the Sbenois Deer Howitzer. Stop in today and ask for one with cheese. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2255 Registered: 12-2001 |
Sbenois, The collateral damage of this thread is remarkable. Both Insite and one of the manifestations of Straw down in flames. | ||
| anon Citizen Username: Anon Post Number: 963 Registered: 6-2002 |
And I thought it was a mistake for Sbenois to start this thread. Guess it all turned out for the best. | ||
| Dave Citizen Username: Dave Post Number: 6376 Registered: 4-1998 |
I guess it wouldn't help to point out that I'm basically pro-Israel at this point (not particularly in a manner that would preclude debate, of course). If stopping violence in the Middle East were as simple as suspending or deleting unruly users, I'd do it in an instant. I would have deleted Arafat years ago. Less talking more listening, please. | ||
| Ukealalio Citizen Username: Ukealalio Post Number: 441 Registered: 6-2003 |
Harpo-Your entitled to your opinion but until you see what goes on in the middle east up close , I'm not going to take you seriously. There are a lot of complexities an armchair politician cannot grasp. I'm not a Likud fan either but Baraks peaceful negotiations failed because Arafat didn't want to make peace. Not once have I seen you condemn the violence from the Palestinian side only criticism of Israel. I'm not gonna call you a Nazi or an Anti-Semiite but I cant take anything you say seriously. As a good friend from Israel says (Not a hawk, anti Likud but tired of living with terrorism), "We'd rather have the worlds criticism then their condolences". If you seriously think most Israeli's don't want an end to the violence and would love to see a independent Palestinian state (only of course, if they could feel secure), maybe you should be asking yourself some hard questions. | ||
| J. Crohn Citizen Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 905 Registered: 3-2003 |
"I think America's campaign of violence against terrorists puts a high premium on avoiding civilian casualties because the ultimate goal is close and productive relations with non-terrorist peoples in those same lands." Harpo, even using conservative estimates of US-caused Iraqi civilian deaths (5,000 to 10,000 in the Iraq war as of spring 2003, according to the Christian Science Monitor) vs. ridiculously liberal estimates of Israeli-caused Palestinian civilian deaths (to quote an Egyptian paper, “80%” of some figure that now approaches 2,400 Pal deaths over three years, with that 80% including quite a few instances of Pal "civilians" killed while firing at Israeli civilians) it's kind of hard to say that the US is less indiscriminate in its prosecution of terror than Israel. Please don't try to argue that the Iraq invasion was not a "campaign of violence against terrorists;" the Bush admin itself claims it was part of the fight against al Qaeda. Moreover, our record of civilian casualties in Afghanistan (1000-1,3000 by conservative estimate), while far better than in Iraq because most of the fighting did not take place in urban zones, was still significant enough to worry every single informed commentator about the backlash from the Pashtuns we needed to win over. Again, compare 5 to 10 thousand civilians killed by the US in a few months of all-out war in Iraq (a figure that does not even include events since the spring of '03) vs. an unrealistic maximum of some 1,920 Pal civilians killed by Israel over more than three years of low-grade urban warfare. (Just for the record, the pro-Israel International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism puts the percentage of Pal civilian deaths since Sept. 2000 at 37.2%. Figuring on a 2,400-death total, which includes Pals killed by Israeli civilians, the number of Palestinain civilians killed by Israel in three+ years is considerably fewer than the number of Afghan civilians killed by the US in a few months of blowing al Qaeda vermin out of their hidey-holes.) "There is no similar policy goal for Likud." If you’re referring to the Likud-dominated coalition government of the state of Israel, of course there are policies for developing “close and productive relations with non-terrorist peoples." And these do include minimizing civilian casualties where possible, which is precisely why the US consulted Israel concerning its own occupation of Iraq. (The case study in minimizing casualties during urban operations is, in fact, Jenin. See: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0402-04.htm, from the Guardian.) If you want to look into the issue further, you could do worse than to take into account an article, published in the journal Azure this past summer, by Yagil Henkin, a grad student in military history at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. Here’s an excerpt from the introduction to his “Urban Warfare and the Lessons of Jenin: How Israel’s record in preventing civilian casualties stacks up against operations in Grozny, Kosovo, and Mogadishu”: In the year that has passed since the events, a great deal of reliable information has become available that reveals what really happened in the battle of Jenin. The picture that emerges is strikingly different from the images that filled the press in the weeks after the clash: Not only was there no massacre of innocents in the Jenin refugee camp, but in the vast majority of cases IDF soldiers took unusual measures—even at the risk of their own safety—to prevent harm to the camp’s civilian population. These efforts, I will show, were not simply isolated acts of restraint. They were the result of decisions made by both the military command and the civilian leadership as part of a deliberate policy aimed at keeping civilian casualties to a minimum. The IDF followed these orders to the letter, even though they significantly complicated fighting in a residential area… [emphasis added]. With respect to other sorts of “close and productive relations,” whatever you mean by that, Israel has trade and/or security agreements with various “non-terrorist peoples” in the mideast (and in India: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/425004.cms); these include the governments of Turkey and Jordan (which was actually fairly happy with Sharon, up until he began building the wall, which Jordan fears will result in an enlargement of its own Pal population), and business people in Egypt and the Gulf states. (I believe Israel actually still has a trade office in Qatar.) Such arrangements are, for obvious reasons, made and implemented quietly. But even Tehran purchased—through an intermediary, after first publicly announcing Iran would accept no aid from Israel—Israeli equipment needed to help in the rescue effort at Bam. None of the foregoing is intended to diminish Israel’s responsibilty for Palestinian civilian deaths that can be avoided (although I’m not talking about avoidance of Palestinian civilian deaths at the cost of Israeli lives). But holding the US up as a counter-example doesn't really wash. Surely one can dislike Israeli maximalism and Likud hardline politics without pretending Israel has been more brutal than the US, or that its government's "ultimate goal" does not include seeking productive relationships with non-terrorists. | ||
| ashear Citizen Username: Ashear Post Number: 956 Registered: 5-2001 |
As a jew, a child of holocaust survivors, and a supporter of Israel (though not of every action of its government) I am consistently appaled by the casual use of the term Nazi. People who think that settlements are illegal or that the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza are illegal are not, by definition, Nazis. You may disagee with them and some, though I think not all, may be anti-semites. But this constant reference to people as Nazis serves to trivialize the true horror of what the Nazis did, incuding the suffering they inflicted on my family. Nazi does not simply mean bad person or person who does not like Isreal. I see no indication that Harpo want to exterminate the Jewish people. Please stop it. | ||
| J. Crohn Citizen Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 906 Registered: 3-2003 |
I agree with Ashear. Following is an article in today's Maariv newspaper. | ||
| ashear Citizen Username: Ashear Post Number: 957 Registered: 5-2001 |
On the substantive issue I do have family in Israel and I have been there. I love the country and look forward to returning and I beleive it should remain as a Jewish state. I also beleive that the occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan Heights (and the former occupation of the Sinai) were legal since they were the result of Israel's defense of itself against unprovoked attack. The establishment of settlements on those territories was not legal. The territories do not belong to Israel. The problem is that their return must be through negotiations and, as much as I want peace, I'm just not sure who it is Israel should be negotiating with. Is Arafat either trustworthy or capbable of delivering peace? No evidence of either that I know of. I do think withdrawing from Gaza is a good idea since it has not strategic value and puts soliders at risk for a few fanatics (jewish ones). I think that expansion of the settlements on the West Bank should stop simply because it is wrong to expand them. Some of the more far flung settlements on the West Bank share the traits of those in Gaza. Others are essentially suburbs of Jerusalem and will eventually have to be made part of Israel, hopefully through negotations. I don't think that denying that Israel has done things that are wrong and have exacerbated the conflict is helpful to those who support it. But these does not mean that there is any moral equivalence between Israel and the Palestinians. Israel did not start the wars that brought us to this point and they do not send children to blow themselves and other children to bits. I do wish that the Israels could find ways to fight the terrorists without blowing up children who happen to be walking near by. If I sound depressed about the whole situation its only because I am. | ||
| J. Crohn Citizen Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 907 Registered: 3-2003 |
Arafat funding terror with EU aid Die Welt publishes watchdog agency's report that Arafat systematically diverted humanitarian aid to fund terrorism. Maariv News Service The German daily Die Welt reports that the European Commission's Anti-Fraud Office (OLAF) has concluded that tens of millions of dollars in humanitarian aid, donated by the EU to the PA has been utilized for terrorist operations against Israel. The findings, which have deliberately been covered up, confirm Israeli allegations that Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat has diverted millions of dollars in EU funding to the Fatah Tanzim and Hamas terrorist organizations. The OLAF findings are based upon documents recovered from the PA headquarters by Israeli military forces during the course of Operation Defensive Shield. OLAF agents recently visited Jerusalem to be briefed by Israeli security officials and to ascertain the authenticity of the documents. The OLAF investigators have accepted that the captured documents are genuine and evidence of Arafat's wide-spread diversion of the EU's humanitarian aid to Palestinian terrorist operations that targeted Israeli civilians. The Israeli documents had been presented to the EU's Commissioner for External Affairs Chris Patten last year. Patten, however, refused to recognize their authenticity and denied they established that Arafat was using EU funds for terror attacks. Under increasing pressure from European parliament members, Patten was forced to order an OLAF investigation into the Israeli allegations. The documents include letters signed by Arafat ordering payments to eleven terrorist leaders for what he termed guerilla operations. In addition, there are receipts for the payments of the mortgages of the families of Hamas suicide bombers, as well as a cash awards of several thousand dollars to the family members. Other documents detail how European funds were used by the PA's Preventative Security Forces to stage "spontaneous" demonstrations in support of imprisoned Fatah Tanzim Marwan Barghouti, who was placed on trial in Israel for masterminding terror attacks that killed 26 Israelis. Following the signing of the Oslo Accords, the EU pledged to provide funding to the PA for civilian projects, primarily to pay the salaries of the PA's municipal workers. The EU donates approximately $10 million a month and more than $1.5 billion to the PA since 1994. The plaintiffs allege that the EU failed to undertake any steps to monitor or scrutinize how the PA was utilizing the donated money. OLAF has not denied the veracity of the report. It denied having been pressured to keep the results of the investigation under wraps, saying that it had not been published because it was still incomplete. It also complained that the article was based on confidential "in camera" briefings that had been leaked. In May 2002 Shurat HaDin, a non-profit Israeli law center filed a NIS 100,000,000 civil action against the EU on behalf of the Blumberg family in the Tel Aviv District Court. According to the suit, on August 5, 2001, Palestinian police officers moonlighting as Fatah-Tanzim terrorists opened fire from another vehicle at the Blumberg’s car, killing 35 year old Tehiya Blumberg, a mother of five children pregnant at the time of the attack. Her husband Steve and their daughter Zipporah were severely injured. The Blumberg law suit, which is brought by attorney Nitsana Darshan-Leitner, alleges that the EU recklessly provided the PA with massive sums of financial aid, while knowing that the money was being diverted from its intended civilian purposes to Palestinian terrorist groups. The court papers assert that the EU was repeatedly warned by Israel that its aid was financing Palestinian attacks on Israelis. "The OLAF report should be immediately released to the public and the EU's aid to the PA suspended for good," said Shurat HaDin Director Darshan-Leitner. "Without the EU's reckless provision of financing to the Palestinians, hundreds of Israeli terror victims would still be alive and thousands of others would never have had to suffer their tragic injuries", Darshan-Leitner said. "European taxpayers must now acknowledge that they are the ones who have been financing the Palestinian terror attacks and accept that they must pay compensation to the families of the victims", added Darshan-Leitner. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1221 Registered: 6-2001 |
Ukelalio, I've been to the Middle East. | ||
| J. Crohn Citizen Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 908 Registered: 3-2003 |
Oops--a substantive typo in my 10:56 post: "Moreover, our record of civilian casualties in Afghanistan (1000-1,3000 by conservative estimate)..." should have read; <b>...(1000-1,300 by conservative estimate)..." | ||
| Ukealalio Citizen Username: Ukealalio Post Number: 445 Registered: 6-2003 |
Harpo-Terrific, where?. Still not one word on Palestinian vilolence and terrorist acts against Israel. That silence says a lot. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1222 Registered: 6-2001 |
sbenois, I don't think any of your arguments are responsive to what I wrote. I acknowledged the existing disagreements, but it sounds like you don't ascribe to any rulings of international law, or at least any that would apply to Israel. Jcrohn, I counterposed US policy to Israeli policy regarding fighting wars on terror because tjohn introduced a comparison earlier in this thread. Your assertion that Likud has a policy of building close and cooperative relations with the Palestinians doesn't reflect reality. And it is Alice in Wonderland logic that reasons that since the Bush Administration consulted Israelis before embarking on its own occupation, that must mean Israelis have the same occupation policies as the US. ashear, I'm depressed about the situation too, but moreover profoundly alarmed, especially after reading the interview with Benny Morris in Ha'aretz. Have you and other people read this? It's long, and I warn you that it is extremely disturbing, but I think it's more essential reading than long MOL posts on this subject: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1057399/posts (For those who don't know who Benny Morris is, you're probably stuck reading the introduction. But even if you just go right to the Q&A, it's informative.) The situation in the Middle East is so serious it's past the point of being one I want to do sharp-elbowed jockeying about on MOL to score debater's points, as I readily admit to having an appetite for at other times. I see a tremendous global dilemma, but I also see a local situation where deep hatreds and irrationalities are driving people with the power to kill indiscriminately and to destroy thousands of lives and more. Having watched Ariel Sharon for many years, I've yet to see the evidence that his policies help the security of Jews one bit. And even if some Jews believe that they do (and that is far from unanimous, even in this thread), that does not elminate the human rights of the Palestinian people in the occupied territories or those of the Israeli Arabs. Perhaps people will be angry at me for saying that, or want to call me names, but I trust no one disagres with me this situation is grave, perhaps too grave for verbal nonsense. | ||
| joso Citizen Username: Joso Post Number: 167 Registered: 5-2001 |
I really do not understand how anyone can defend Israel's continual expansion of settlements in the West Bank and Gaza. There is certainly room for debate on some of their other policies, but this one is clearly wrong. | ||
| J. Crohn Citizen Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 909 Registered: 3-2003 |
"Your assertion that Likud has a policy of building close and cooperative relations with the Palestinians doesn't reflect reality." ?? I didn't say it did. Your original claim was that the Likud had no policy of building close and cooperative relations with "non-terrorist peoples in those same lands". So, exactly which non-terrorists should Likud develop "close and cooperative" relations with? The "non-terrorist" Yassir Arafat? The "non-terrorist" Marwan Barghouti? The "non-terrorist" Hassan Nasrullah? (Not that the Likud has not conducted secret negotiations with all these people, and more.) Or are you suggesting that the multitude of Palestinin-Israeli peace and business initiatives that existed before September 2000 fell apart simply because of "Likud policy" and not the intifada? "And it is Alice in Wonderland logic that reasons that since the Bush Administration consulted Israelis before embarking on its own occupation, that must mean Israelis have the same occupation policies as the US." Again, I did not assert that Israel has the same occupation policies as the US. (On the contrary: Sharon's coalition would ideally like to see the Palestinian population of the West Bank go live happily ever after in Jordan--which would be disastrous for both Jordan and Israel.) It was you who linked Israeli military policy concerning civilian casualties to its ruling coalition's supposed disinterest in forging ties to "non-terrorists". It was you who linked the US's military policy concerning civilian casualties to its political policy of attempting to form ties with those it occupies. I have simply endeavored to point out that a) Israel's brutality is less lethal to civilians than the US's, despite differences in their intentions with regard to their respective occupations, and b) there's no necessary connection between a military policy that minimizes civilian deaths and a political policy that forges ties. For both Israel and the US, civilian casualties are ethical and political liabilities, irrespective of whether the occupiers wish to win over the locals. At present, the Israelis do minimize civilian casualties relative to their aims in war, and some plain evidence of this (quite apart from published IDF regulations you can look up for yourself) is that the US, which also seeks to minimize civilian casualties, has sought Israeli training during our war and occupation in Iraq. "I see a tremendous global dilemma, but I also see a local situation where deep hatreds and irrationalities are driving people with the power to kill indiscriminately and to destroy thousands of lives and more." Indeed. But you might as well be describing the relationship between Pakistan and India. Where is the international obsession over Kashmir? I mean, Pakistan's A.Q. Khan has just confessed to the most blatant nuclear proliferation imaginable, which everyone knows was done with the full complicity of the Army and security services. Not only are there no MOL threads devoted to that topic, nobody has announced that there isn't "a person on the planet who doesn't have a stake at this point in peace" in Kashmir. | ||
| Ukealalio Citizen Username: Ukealalio Post Number: 446 Registered: 6-2003 |
The silence is deafening. | ||
| Unhinged Citizen Username: Mem Post Number: 2755 Registered: 5-2001  |
My money's with J. Crohn... | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1224 Registered: 6-2001 |
Really ukelalio and jcrohn, I'm not interested in this kind of competitive discussion about Israel. I think the gravity of the situation demands something different. | ||
| Ukealalio Citizen Username: Ukealalio Post Number: 448 Registered: 6-2003 |
There's nothing competitive about my posts and I can't talk (or should I say write) for J. Crohn, even though his extremely informative, balanced posts, don't show a hint of being competitive. I obviously support Israel but I certainly feel sympathy for the Palestinians and would like to see them get an independant homeland. Not once have you expressed any sympathy for the Israeli's and the constant acts of terrorism they have to endure. The gravity of the situation demands I should stop wasting time replying to a poster who can't empathize and see the other side of the coin. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1226 Registered: 6-2001 |
Ukelalio, I specifically avoided following sbenois' lead in "condemning" Israel for the death of the civilian in the attack he cited, even though I more or less share his analysis that "the response to this is going to be a few suicide bombs in Tel Aviv and more blood is going to be spilled," because I don't think that language is helpful. I also chose not to pick apart your statement that you "never condone the killing of civilians" because I didn't think picking it apart was helpful either. (To clarify: When I endorsed the war in Afghanistan, I knew it was a certainty that civiilans, probably in large numbers, would be killed by my government. My endorsement of the war was condoning that killing. It goes to the meanings of words, but so what. I got your point.) I don't want to get into one upmaanships about who has been to Israel more often, knows more Israelis, has more Jewish relatives, can more finely split the linguistic hairs or claim more of the moral high ground etc. etc. To me, all that is irrelevant to the alarming situation that is unfolding. I am deeply and sincerely concerned for the safety of Jews. If I had done as many things to jeopardize their safety as has Ariel Sharon, people wouldn't be calling me a nazi or anti-Semite, they'd be demanding I be put in jail. I cannot express myself more plainly than this: I think the situation for Jews in Israel -- the human beings living in Israel -- is one of extreme danger, and the unfolding situation is one of extreme danger to the whole region and perhaps the whole world. I think offering my sympathy would be more offensive than offering my best effort not to get bogged down in the kind of rote thinking that has landed us at this point. | ||
| Ukealalio Citizen Username: Ukealalio Post Number: 450 Registered: 6-2003 |
See the last sentance of my last post. I'm delighted that you realize Israeli's are living in danger. If you want to help, perhaps you should councel Palestinians on how to take Arafat out of the equation and find a leader who really wants peace. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1227 Registered: 6-2001 |
Ukelalio, Do you think you won something? Is that the source of your delight? I find this sadder than you apparently can imagine. I also think you are somewhat behind the news on Arafat, and mistaken about his status, on both sides of the wall. | ||
| J. Crohn Citizen Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 910 Registered: 3-2003 |
"Really ukelalio and jcrohn, I'm not interested in this kind of competitive discussion about Israel. I think the gravity of the situation demands something different." Harpo, my intention was not to compete. But your point of view struck me as unbalanced, and so I figured that if you were so motivated to air it, then I was offered a legitimate opportunity to provide information that may not be so well known, and which may lead to a more complex--if less certain--understanding of the situation. I wouldn't have bothered if I thought the topic was not of serious interest to you and others here. I have come to agree with Benny Morris, who I respected even when he was merely Israel's most despised revisionist historian, responsible for that country's most credible demolition of its own founding mythology. (He complained, by the way, that the Haaretz interview was edited to misrepresent him as being more of a hardliner than he is, but it doesn't matter.) What is not clear from your remarks is whether you are concerned that Morris's pessimism about Israel's future is warranted, or you are simply alarmed that Morris says a more thorough "cleansing" of the Arab population in 1948 would have avoided the dilemma in which the Palestinians and Israelis now find themselves. My assumption is that what you're concerned about is the latter. In any case, there's a book you should read. It is "Islam and Dhimmitude: Where Civilizations Collide," by a scholar known as Bat Ye'or. It pretty much supports the broader and better known Huntington thesis, and it supports what Morris has said about the west being up against a bigger and more threatening phenomenon than many have yet realized. You might also look into "Land and Power: The Zionist Resort to Force, 1881-1948," by Esther Shapira, "The Jews of Islam," by Bernard Lewis, and "Six Days of War," by Michael Oren. All have various bearings on the current situation--that is, one can begin to understand in a little more depth why the passions of the moment are not transitory, nor, perhaps, disarmable by politicking and good intentions. | ||
| J. Crohn Citizen Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 911 Registered: 3-2003 |
(Incidentally, the above was cross-posted with Ukealalio's 3:44 post and subsequent, Harpo, so please don't go flying off the handle at me over my attempt to understand what troubles you most about the Morris interrview.) | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1228 Registered: 6-2001 |
jcrohn, Your assumption is wrong. I'm concerned that Morris's pessimism is warranted, without agreeing with his politics or morals. Thank you for the book recommendations. I have already read Lewis and Oren. | ||
| Ukealalio Citizen Username: Ukealalio Post Number: 452 Registered: 6-2003 |
It's insulting and ignorant to think I get delight in any part of this horror. No one wins in matters like this but I expect someone with a different point of view to at least be able to show some empathy. I know exactly the status of Arafat. If you truly believe he wields no influence, you are naive. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1229 Registered: 6-2001 |
PS Jcrohn, I read Morris's caveats to his Ha'aretz interview, but have since lost the link to it. I think, however, they only offer minor adjustments in tone the second time around. ukelalio might want to read these links: http://www.cjr.org/issues/2004/1/science-umansky.asp http://slate.msn.com/id/2094390/ And I hope he'll read the Morris link as well. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1230 Registered: 6-2001 |
ukelalio, Telling the Palestinian people to recite certain words about Arafat is as much a waste of time as telling me to recite certain words about the Palestinians. It is that mentality that has produced absolutely nothing for several decades running. It's intended as humilation, and that's a mistake. All that said, Arafat has had very little credibility among Palestinians for years. Unfortunately, the people gaining in credibility have been people even more cynically violent than him. The Likud government has made it very plain it isn't interested in negotiating with any Palestians. It doesn't matter when Sharon is presented with alternates to Arafat. He undermines them. "Delighted" was your word not mine. It seemed arrogant of you to imply I didn't know Jews were in danger in Israel. I wondered what you meant by it. To me, empathy is not the issue. (How do I know what it is like to live with those threats?) Their security is and I think we'd all be better off without the pieties and more of the common civilities. | ||
| sbenois Citizen Username: Sbenois Post Number: 10726 Registered: 10-2001 |
Dearest Tjohn, I hope you will agree with me that Harpo is getting the living stuffing kicked out of her on this thread. It's brutally ugly. ---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <- The Cafe Sbenois is pleased to announce that a fresh batch of Yumsters just arrived thanks to the pinpoint accuracy of the Sbenois Deer Howitzer. Stop in today and ask for one with cheese. | ||
| J. Crohn Citizen Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 912 Registered: 3-2003 |
Harpo, your Michael Young article from Slate suggests that Hamas is prepared to abandon its long immutable desire to eradicate Israel: According to a Reuters report published in Ha'aretz, a senior Hamas official declared Sunday that the party would "accept a [Palestinian] state in the West Bank, including Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip [as opposed to a state in all of Israel]. We propose a 10-year truce in return for [an Israeli] withdrawal and the establishment of a state." The report said the comments "appeared to strengthen signs of a big political shift by a faction sworn to destroy Israel." This assumption is ludicrous, though not surprising coming from a writer based in Beirut, or from Reuters, which positions itself as a Palestinian advocate. It would be interesting to know whether the word "truce" was used in the original document (which I doubt), or whether the word was hudna. Given that we're talking about Hamas, in all likelihood it was hudna, which is a ten-year period of regrouping subsequent to which hostilities will, according to Islamic law, be resumed. Only extraordinary naivete or disingenuousness could lead an informed person to believe that Hamas will ever, ever cease working for the destruction of Israel. If you accept Young's principle that the recent prisoner swap negotiations with Hizballah were intended by Israel to further marginalize Arafat and undermine the PA (and I accept it), then you probably also recognize that the rest of Sharon's actions to date have been intended to have the same effect. What has been the result of this? That Hamas is now trying to deal, when before it didn't have to because it could use the PA for cover. Sharon won't bite. Israel already acceded to a ten-year hudna (Oslo) once, during which a Palestinian authority that claimed officially that it accepted Israel's right to exist, on the other hand ordered weapons shipments from Iran and funded and engaged in terror, while its leader proclaimed in Arabic that Palestinians' struggle was for the entire historic land of Palestine. Meanwhile, Israel built settlements and more settlements. Each side used the other, under Oslo, to pursue their illegitimate goals. Each side pretended to the diplomats that Oslo wasn't a sham, as did the US and Europe. But it seems only well-meaning Americans and Europeans, and the hope-besotted Israeli left (with which I once sympathized), didn't understand the real rules of the game. Now Sharon has effectively brought Hamas to the bargaining table. Why should he jump at the offer of yet another hudna? Why should Israel, in the era of al Qaeda, believe that providing a ten-year opportunity for Hamas to regroup--plus Jerusalem, plus a state to squabble over with other Palestinian extremists--would make Israel more secure? | ||
| J. Crohn Citizen Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 913 Registered: 3-2003 |
Let me just clarify that the fundamental question underlying the foregoing is why you reserve so much ire for Sharon, when in fact we would not have Sharon but for Arafat and the tigers he has ridden for the last decade? | ||
| sbenois Citizen Username: Sbenois Post Number: 10727 Registered: 10-2001 |
Harpo, Do you think that the UN is even handed when it comes to dealing with Israel and her neighbors? Please enlighten us. Please tell us how many UN resolutions have been brought in condemnation of Israel since 1948 and how many were brought aginst Egypt, Syria, Jordan, etc. in relation to their actions against Israel. I will never accept the criticism of the UN towards Israel until that feckless, embarassment of a world body begins to treat Israel as a full partner. ---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <- The Cafe Sbenois is pleased to announce that a fresh batch of Yumsters just arrived thanks to the pinpoint accuracy of the Sbenois Deer Howitzer. Stop in today and ask for one with cheese. | ||
| sbenois Citizen Username: Sbenois Post Number: 10728 Registered: 10-2001 |
P.S. Strawberry did not say anything wrong. He didn't call her a Nazi, he simply expressed an opinion that her beliefs were akin to Nazi B.S. I disagree with him of course as I believe it was more a case of elitist overblownist. REINSTATE THE STRAW MAN! ---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <- The Cafe Sbenois is pleased to announce that a fresh batch of Yumsters just arrived thanks to the pinpoint accuracy of the Sbenois Deer Howitzer. Stop in today and ask for one with cheese. | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2268 Registered: 12-2001 |
Sbenois, I have always feared conflict between J. Crohn and Harpo on this board. I understand that Dave has already increased server capacity to support the struggle of titans. | ||
| sbenois Citizen Username: Sbenois Post Number: 10729 Registered: 10-2001 |
It's gonna get ugly. Just do me one favor, call J. Crohn and tell her not to mention anything about culling the deer herd. On the other hand, maybe that's just what we need right now. ---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <- The Cafe Sbenois is pleased to announce that a fresh batch of Yumsters just arrived thanks to the pinpoint accuracy of the Sbenois Deer Howitzer. Stop in today and ask for one with cheese. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1234 Registered: 6-2001 |
tjohn, Thus far, my comments have been among the shorter ones in the thread. I've already expressed my doubts about the worth of long posts on this subject, and refer people instead to Benny Morris. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1235 Registered: 6-2001 |
Sbenois, Whether or not you accept the UN's judgments regarding Israel, I don't think I can improve on ashear's formulation of the legality issue regarding the settlements: "The establishment of settlements on those territories was not legal. The territories do not belong to Israel." But even those issues aside, since they are merely legalities and in dispute and the existence of the settlements is being altered as we write, who or what do you think is going to solve this problem other than the UN? | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1236 Registered: 6-2001 |
Jcrohn, I suppose the snotty answer would be yes, Israel was naive to encourage and support Hamas. I didn't post the links for Ukelalio because I agreed with every subparagraph, but because he seemed to think Arafat (or any Palestinian) was still a player in some sort of peace process. I think that misreads Sharon and how far the situation has moved beyond that. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1237 Registered: 6-2001 |
I missed your other question. It isn't a question of ire about Sharon. I think he has been a catastrophe for Israel. | ||
| anon Citizen Username: Anon Post Number: 967 Registered: 6-2002 |
ashear: Thank you for so clearly articulating a position with which I agree. I am also very depressed about the situation, so much so that I was unable to express myself as clearly as you did. Thank you. |
