| Author | Message | ||
     Dave Citizen Username: Dave Post Number: 6392 Registered: 4-1998  |
OOPS! | ||
| tjohn Citizen Username: Tjohn Post Number: 2283 Registered: 12-2001  |
OTOH, it was a complete sentence with some three syllable words. | ||
| Dr. Winston O'Boogie Citizen Username: Casey Post Number: 532 Registered: 8-2003  |
get out! did he REALLY say that? maybe we can outsource the job of POTUS. | ||
| Dr. Winston O'Boogie Citizen Username: Casey Post Number: 533 Registered: 8-2003 |
ok, Bush himself didn't actually say that. it was a member of his Admin. "Outsourcing is just a new way of doing international trade," said N. Gregory Mankiw, chairman of Bush's Council of Economic Advisors, which prepared the report. "More things are tradable than were tradable in the past. And that's a good thing." | ||
| sbenois Citizen Username: Sbenois Post Number: 10740 Registered: 10-2001  |
He's right. ---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <- The Cafe Sbenois is pleased to announce that a fresh batch of Yumsters just arrived thanks to the pinpoint accuracy of the Sbenois Deer Howitzer. Stop in today and ask for one with cheese. | ||
| bobk Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 4663 Registered: 5-2001 |
I tend to be in favor of free trade, but the events of the last couple of years has caused me to wonder. The dollar is weak and getting weaker, yet we had a record trade deficiet last year of a half trillion dollars. Toyota had their best profit year ever, and the US market is a huge chunk of their business. In January both Nissan and Toyota had sales increases of over 20% from 2003. Classic economics indicates we should be exporting more because our products are cheaper do to the weak dollar and we should be importing less for the same reason. Even taking into consideration the lag involved in these things, this ain't happening and this should cause a lot of concern in Washington. | ||
| Ukealalio Citizen Username: Ukealalio Post Number: 462 Registered: 6-2003 |
Export what ?, raw products ?. I'm in international trade, there's not a lot more then raw products to export. Washington doesn't know whats it's doing in these matters. We recently signed a bilateral maritime agreement with China which we have not had in years (despite the fact, they are our largest (Ocean) trading partner. Both the U.S. and China had to agree to opening up certain restrictions. The head of the Dept. of Transportation said, "This was a real positive step for U.S. cariers". Guess what ?, there are no U.S. carriers. Of the two carriers he was talking about, one is owned by Singapore and the other is Danish. There are no more U.S. container lines, they are all now foreign owned. Part of the problem is the govt. turned their back on this industry and let it go away. The real problem started with the Reagan administration. So much for the GOP being pro-business. Maybe we should have had a President with a personal stake in the steamship industry. | ||
| vor Citizen Username: Vor Post Number: 184 Registered: 9-2003 |
Losing your job has got to be one of the worst things to ever happen to someone (although I can think of more tragic events). It alters their livelihood and can damage egos and self esteem as well. It's not fun. That said however, if an economic trend exists that causes the temporary displacement of some workers, but has the effects of strengthening our economy as well as some struggling countries as well, I can’t see this as being wrong. I used to have the very opposite view, but I am a convert. How does outsourcing strengthen our economy? By making companies more productive and hence more profitable. My company (investment bank) recently went through a very tough period of transitioning to having the a large part of our IT dept outsourced. It was tough, obviously for those who lost their jobs, but also for those of us who are rely on IT to do our jobs. We lost a lot of, what a colleague refers to as, “tribal knowledge”. This slowed us down, almost to a standstill. But, after only 1 year we are starting to see the benefits. There was some behavior modification on our parts as we needed to be more diligent in documenting our development requirements as we could no longer rely on the inherent experience of someone who has serviced you for years. Our expenses are down and we have become more profitable and, yes, more productive. As our company becomes more profitable we will be able to expand our business and hence hire more employees, and this is only after 1 year. Those who have been displaced (we have one in our family) due to outsourcing will have a tough time, and I don’t want to minimize their difficulties, but I can see the greater good that can, and I believe will, come out of this trend. As far as the benefits overseas, I think that goes without saying. There was a segment on 20/20 last night about outsourcing, and try as they might, they could not make this come off as evil or even just wrong. But strengthening a economically struggling country, such as India, will also benefit America in many ways. Not the least of which is contributing to the stability of a very unstable region of the world.. I guess it’s opinions like these that cause my wife to occasionally call me a closet Republican (when she is really mad a me and really wants to hurt me). | ||
| Cynicalgirl Citizen Username: Cynicalgirl Post Number: 406 Registered: 9-2003  |
It's hell being part of the "frictional" costs associated with these economic changes... | ||
| nan Citizen Username: Nan Post Number: 1158 Registered: 2-2001 |
vor, I hope you still feel so rosy about this when they come to move your department offshore. What do you mean by "the temporary displacement of some workers?" Do you really believe all of those displaced IT workers are going to get new jobs?" You try to make it sound like loosing your job is just like a bad haircut. There are people loosing houses, and marriages and children suffering. What do we as a country get from the increasing profits of an investment bank that is worth more than the stability of living in a country with plentiful and varied occupational opportunities? And do you really think that the positive spin 20/20 put on this topic represents a well balanced view? (note: I've never seen the show) | ||
| Montagnard Citizen Username: Montagnard Post Number: 420 Registered: 6-2003 |
No industry dominates forever. Railway builders have been out of fashion for a century. Highway building isn't what it was fifty years ago. Why expect Information Technology to provide an endless future of opportunity? | ||
| Nohero Citizen Username: Nohero Post Number: 2877 Registered: 10-1999  |
Montagnard: It's just that the "boom-to-bust" cycle for IT has been a whole lot faster. Your other examples are industries which took a generation or more to wind down. In contrast, people who were steered into IT opportunities, as a replacement for their earlier jobs, are now losing those jobs, too. It definitely makes people wonder about their futures, no matter what they do. | ||
| vor Citizen Username: Vor Post Number: 186 Registered: 9-2003 |
Nan I’ve thought long and hard about what you wrote. I try to keep my posts short and hopefully to the point. Maybe that’s why my comments about people losing their jobs seemed casual. I didn’t mean them to be. You’re absolutely correct in your description of the suffering that one could endure from losing their livelihoods and in no way do I want to minimize that. Also, I believe Nohero’s comments are valid as well, in that the “Boom to Bust” (as (s)he puts it) for IT has come at a very rapid pace. So while we can compare the outsourcing phenomenon to other paradigm changes in the U.S. economy in concept, the immediate negative effects are more intense because of it’s rapid deployment. This said, however, I do believe that this change will be one for the better for the U.S. IN THE LONG RUN! More efficient companies, regardless if they’re investment banks, bakeries, oil companies or whatever, will be able to put more dollars to work creating more opportunity for employment. Some may argue that the higher profits earned from becoming more efficient will only line the pockets of senior management, and not go to the betterment of the company. This may be true in some cases, as we have seen in recent years, but I truly believe that these are isolated cases. My counter argument, however, is that this would be unsustainable. Companies that are run in this manner will not stay competitive for very long. In my company we are already seeing the benefit of these efficiencies by being able to hirer more employees in other areas, revenue producing areas, leading to more product being sold, hence more profits and again more opportunity to expand and hire more people. While I do not believe the “trickle down” theory works in tax policy, it is the cornerstone of the U.S. economic system. Successful (read profitable) companies hire new employees. These individuals buy the goods and services of companies, thereby making these companies more profitable so they can hire more new employees. Etc. This could get quite long, (I know, too late), so I will end by saying that I believe all of us want a successful economy that is able to provide our citizens with the opportunity to earn a good living to allow us all to lead productive lives. The age old question of what is the best way to accomplish this probably will never be answered, especially not on MOL. But it sure does make for good election year rhetoric, doesn’t it. These are my humble opinions. Thanks | ||
| Montagnard Citizen Username: Montagnard Post Number: 427 Registered: 6-2003 |
Commercial IT has been with us for 40+ years. The internet boom and Y2K spending kept spending levels too high for too long, so the retrenchment was severe. | ||
| nan Citizen Username: Nan Post Number: 1162 Registered: 2-2001 |
vor, I appreciate your consideration and I'm not an expert on the topic so perhaps I'm not seeing the big picture. But, from what I've read and seen, I just can't be optimistic the way you are. I look at what happened to manufacturing and I see ghost towns and depressed regions and lots of poor people that might have done well in that sector, but have not been able to make a transition to another line of work that pays a decent wage. Some of these people are working, but it maybe for long hours, little pay and no benefits. This is hardly the American dream. When the same thing happens to white collar jobs in cities, I don't have the confidence that you do that corporate America will share their fortunes equitably or consider anything but the bottom line. And the bottom line is anything that can be done elsewhere can be done elsewhere cheaper. I'm not expecting idealism--I'm just trying realistically to prepare Plan B. You say they use their profits to hire more people, but do you think that number will make up for the numbers displaced? Doesn't it seems just as likely they will use profits to hire more people off shore? Do you honestly think there will be enough of the type of investment banking jobs you describe expanding for everyone that needs a job? | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 923 Registered: 8-2003 |
"Exporting" and free trade has now moved to things beyond just manufacturing. Services now can be exported. Yes, we export some manufacturing jobs, but with a growing GDP and the same percentage of that coming from manufacturing (roughly 13-17% is what I've read), we still are manufacturing, albeit with less people needed to be employed due to productivity gains. Those people are free to flow towards areas of the economy that need more people and are growing. Railroads, buggy whips, free trade in the 90s saw 2M jobs created if you believe Clinton but suddenly that same free trade is killing us? People seem to think that history begins when they were alive and finally took notice of it. | ||
| Brett Citizen Username: Bmalibashksa Post Number: 708 Registered: 7-2003 |
I’ve had to outsource about 100 IT jobs in the past three years. Due to the interest in outsourcing we’ve even spawned a sister company that matches companies with outsourcing companies. It’s getting difficult to compete. It’s better for our company to get the same amount of work for 1/5 of the cost. I find it amazing that ¼ of the posts on SO/MOL are about saving money and getting the best bang for your buck, but at the same time you whine and cry about what companies have to do in order to give you that lower cost option. You know who gets outsourced by the way? The nine to fiver who tries to take every single day off they can, the person who eats lunch at their desk and then takes the allotted 1 hour, the person who is fine getting their 4% raise per year and doesn’t take on any extra responsibility. If someone went the extra mile there would be no way I’d send their job overseas, but that is getting hard to find. Years ago everyone was concerned that machines were taking the jobs from humans. Well they did and we all got over it. We’ll get over this too. My company is not in the business of giving people jobs; we’re in business to make money. | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 928 Registered: 8-2003 |
Man, Brett. Are you out of touch. Next thing you'll be telling us is that the goal of a company is to make a profit. What school taught you that?? | ||
| bobk Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 4673 Registered: 5-2001 |
The only problem with "flowing towards areas where there is need" is that the jobs are near minimum wage at best. Who is going to buy the products and services if there is no middle class? | ||
| sportsnut Citizen Username: Sportsnut Post Number: 921 Registered: 10-2001 |
Brett - Don't you know that corporations and the people who run them are inherently evil? Additionally, there are people who live right here in MW who are determined to tell you how much in profits you are supposed to make. Any more than that and you're just pure, unadulterated evil.  |
