| Author |
Message |
    
Maplemom
| | Posted on Friday, March 23, 2001 - 1:30 pm: |     |
Can anyone recommend someone who
a) finishes basements
b) also waterproofs?
Is waterproofing usually done beforehand or can one company do it all? Any advice?
The home we are buying has a damp basement, the owner uses a dehumidifier during the summer. We want to put a TV room down there. My husband wants to try himself, I am afraid if he does he won't finish it or won't do it right! Also, any idea on the cost of this? I just want a ballpark idea or range.
Thanks in advance,
Maplemom |
Eliz
| | Posted on Friday, March 23, 2001 - 1:55 pm: | |
For waterproofing see the thread further down titled "Water in the Basement". Also I thnk if you do search in the attic you will find more info on this very Maplewood/SO problem. |
Jgberkeley
| | Posted on Friday, March 23, 2001 - 1:57 pm: | |
Look in the 'water in basement' post further down this list. Lot folks have been over this topic.
I love my French Drain system with dual sumps and pumps. |
Maplemom
| | Posted on Friday, March 23, 2001 - 2:37 pm: | |
I have read all of the other posts and it sounds like with french drains you still permit water in the basement. How then, except for draining it out, does this make for a comfortable, useable room in the basement? Can you still feel the moisture in the air? Is there any way of REALLY waterproofing a basement? |
Eliz
| | Posted on Friday, March 23, 2001 - 2:50 pm: | |
You can have french drains and finish the basement - I'm no expert but if you call someone who is they can explain it to you. |
Njjoseph
| | Posted on Friday, March 23, 2001 - 4:05 pm: | |
I don't think french drains should be your first line of defense. In fact, french drains do not solve any problems -- they only manage them. You usually think of the problem as water in the basement. Unfortunately, that's usually the symptom.
Make attempts to find out the problem first, then fix the problem, and if you can't do that, then worry about the symptoms. I do understand that french drains weaken the hold between the foundation and the slab, and therefore the foundation is liable to cave in.
There is no reason your husband couldn't do the finishing himself, but he should read a book on the topic so he knows what to do. Also, consider hiring professionals for electrical and plumbing work, which needs to be inspected. You also need a permit for this work, although some specifics you don't, i.e. carpeting you don't, but walls you probably will. If you do it yourself (or as much as possible), you will definitely feel a sense of accomplishment. |
Maplemom
| | Posted on Friday, March 23, 2001 - 7:14 pm: | |
Awesome Folks,
Thanks for the advice. Njjoseph, I see your point. I saw one of your older posts as well and it is well taken. I will call the same folks you used as soon as we move in and see if we can identify the problem.
Maplemom |
Jgberkeley
| | Posted on Monday, March 26, 2001 - 12:49 pm: | |
I have to disagree strongly with njjoseph. Your basement walls are either cast concrete, stone or cinder block. Regardless, the problems are the same. Water is coming from 2 places, seeping in from the walls from ground water, or directly up from the floors from rising and falling water tables.
Solutions abound, however, the basics are simple. Outside ground grading should slope away from the house and all water run off from driveways, gutter leaders, and what not, drain 4' away from the house foundation on a down slope. Keep leaves and such cleaned away from the foundation to stop the sponge effect.
Now the water. Consider the water. Think of a river. You can try to dam it, or go with the flow. By that you would direct or divert it rather than fight it. (Mother Nature has a way of winning, always!)
Many try to use tar or other sealers on a couple of feet of the outside, or paint the inside. Think of this as a roof, or a boat hull, one day it will leak and need replacement.
The most correct solution, if done correctly, one would remove all outside foundation dirt, lay a water barriers sealed with tar on the outside wall, lay in gravel with a slope bottom that extends lower than the basement floor, to a gravity drain path, lower than any part of the system, then lay in a membrane, then cover with dirt. This will divert the water. But not easy to do on existing structures.
The French drain system is done on the inside. A sloping trench is dug alongside the inside foundation below the basement floor level leading to wells or sumps. Perf-pipes are laid in gravel beds, covered with membrane then covered with replacement concrete floor. If you have cinder block foundations, holes are drilled in each block cell to allow the cells to drain into the trench. (when drilled, mine drained water for 2 weeks as the walls dried out) Now, along with basic grading outside, diverted water from the roof and driveways, and this system, the water has a path to flow directly to the sump well. Here it is pumped to the street and the city storm drain system. At my house, even when there is little rain, often the sump wells will fill (you can watch them) from the bottom up without water coming in from the drain pipes. This is the water table that raises and falls over the seasons.
My basement is very dry, I have carpet on the floor, computers and video equipment, no humidity other than the rest of the house. I have two sumps to cover the possibility of one pump failing. I do not have water alarms. I figure that 2 pumps would never fail at the same time unless the power is out. If the power is out that long, well, I donât have a generator so I guess Iâll get wet.
Other than from sales people for other methods, Iâve never heard of a problem where a properly installed French drain system would harm the foundation of a house. Think about that, new construction in ground water areas require French drain systems by code.
Note: City Hall in NYC was built on a swamp/pond fed from underground water sources. Since the engineers could not remove the water source they built a massive French drain system with 4 large wells and pumps that run 24 hours a day.
Njjoseph does have a view, but this is my opinion for you to consider. |
Njjoseph
| | Posted on Monday, March 26, 2001 - 1:48 pm: | |
Jq -- so how does my opinion differ from yours, really? |
Lydial
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2001 - 1:33 pm: | |
I have a french drain and a sump pump and my basement is always slightly damp. We run a dehumidifier 24 hours a day in the summer to manage the humidity and in the winter it's not as wet. We have moisture actually seeping up through the concrete floor. If I leave a box onthe floor the bottom is soaked through in a week.
This is not supposed to be a horror story - just to tell you that french drains and sump pumps can still exist in a very damp basement. |
Eliz
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2001 - 1:51 pm: | |
I think njj he is responding to your statement that the "foundation is liable to cave in" with french drains. I wanted to respond to your comment but didn't have all the technical stuff jgb explained so well. I wouldn't want to frighten a new homeowner away from french drains when they are a very good solution for a lot of people. |
Njjoseph
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2001 - 2:31 pm: | |
Thanks, Eliz, I thought that was what he really meant. I am not an engineer, but have it from 2 sources about the possibility that the foundation will cave in, since water is still passing through it, and eroding it in its passage. That's why I suggest finding out what the problem really is before you make the decision to "manage" it rather than "fix" it. I'm not an engineer, so I need to rely on the advice of experts. Maybe Jq is one such expert.
I don't mind frightening a homeowner, though, if it will get them thinking about more alternatives. Too many of us opt for the first solution recommended to us without a complete understanding of the problems. |
Jgberkeley
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 28, 2001 - 9:37 am: | |
Eliz was correct in her/his comments regarding the point I disagreed with Njjoseph.
Lydial, it sounds like your system is not properly designed or was not installed correctly. I can help you understand it if you wish. Are your walls concrete block, stone, or cast concrete? How long ago was the system installed? Was the system installed around the entire perimeter of the basement?
Note: Some people cheap out and install these systems across only the walls that appear to be wet, while water under pressure is a moving force and will out smart the system. Also the larger licensed contractors listed in the yellow pages under, Water Proofing, have 100% warranties for the installations. B-Dry is a very good local company that I have used several times for myself, fiends and neighbors.
Njjoseph, I did not mean to sound unfriendly. Yes this is something I know a lot about. I use to design nuclear submarines and in ground swimming pools. Both are similar from an engineering perspective.
Swimming pools, in areas of high water tables, can float or pop out of the ground while full, due to water table movement or the presence of side flow ground water. The principle involved is essentially the same one that allows a submarine to sink and rise at the will of the crew. The hull of a swimming pool is much like a basement wall and floor system.
Hydrostatic pressure on the structure has to be vented and the water diverted. I note that again you support finding out the cause of the problem before launching into a fix. That is a great approach. Here the problem is known, it is the water, be it side ground flow or rising table, it is water under pressure. A cracked wall, root in the mortar, or a plumbing penetration will not cause the problem we know as wet basements.
Erosion is not a factor in a properly installed system. Look in your well. Is the water flowing in from the pipes clear as a brook or muddy. If muddy you do have erosion taking place and should have it addressed. Likely the water is crystal clear due to the filtering effects of the soil and gravel involved. Ever hear of sand filters? We installed them at the Maplewood swimming pool. They are very effective and produce clear water.
Iâd bet that Lydial has a system that was not designed correctly. Most older basement floors slope from the walls to a low point toward the center. The trench for the drain pipes and gravel beds are to be dug 4-6 inches below the lowest point in the floor and at least 14 inches below grade. This vents water table water from the bottom up. The perf-pipe must be encased or covered in a membrane. This stops soil from leeching into the pipes which would clog them and allow soil erosion around the foundation. Gravel is to be backfilled over the perf- pipe and tamped. This prompts good drainage and restores compaction support to the foundation and the new floor. An air gap must be left between the side wall and the end of the new floor or the floor patch. This provides a path for side wall moisture to drain away to the trench and not wick into the floor. And concrete block walls need to be drilled to allow the cell to drain.
When all this is done, cracks can be patched, roots removed and patched, and plumbing penetrations can be caulked. The water now has a path of least resistance, a hydrostatic relief, and the pressure will not force it past the patches or caulk. On larger floors, such as Home Depot, trenches and pipes must be laid down the middle of the large expanses, however, this is rarely needed in a home. |
Jgberkeley
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 28, 2001 - 11:48 am: | |
Lydial, I forgot to address your humid air.
A wet floor will produce the humid air. Simple evaporation. So until you solve the wet floor, run the dehumidifier or vent the room to the outside. While venting will draw in outside humid air, it will be less humid than the air standing in the basement.
Even though I have a very dry basement since installing my French drain and a sump system 3 years ago, during the summer on those humid days my basement will have a damp feel.
In my case, the house has A/C and my basement has my water heater, steam boiler, washer, dryer and deep sink. The basement can not be sealed air tight, as combustion air is needed for the boiler and water heater, along with the draft air volume needed for proper venting of the exhaust gases. Intake venting air is also needed for the dryer to match the amount of volume it blows to the outside.
So all that outside air on a humid day, added to the vapor added from the hot water from the washer, will make the basement feel damp. I notice it even more when I can afford to run the A/C (Shot at my new Tax bill) and leave the dry air of the house and enter the semi humid space of the basement.
If you are really into tracking sources of humidly, the drain in the deep sink will vent humid air from the sewer system if the water in the u trap dries out. We do not use the sink very often and I have to remember to run some water every couple of weeks or so to keep the u trap full and the gas/vapor seal working. |
Lydial
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 28, 2001 - 12:37 pm: | |
nqberkeley- Thanks for your insight and time to write back addressing my problem! I will call B-dry as a start ( as per your post: do I qualify as a "fiend" or a neighbor?) 
The sump and french drain were already in place when we bought the house 2 years ago. My walls are concrete blocks. The floor is painted concrete.
If I put a can of paint on the floor when I pick it up a few days later there is enough condensation that it drips off. I've noticed that the one dry place in the basement is the area where the water heater and furnace are.
What is the "deep sink"? |
Jgberkeley
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 28, 2001 - 2:32 pm: | |
Desert-dry and Arid-dry are good as well if you want a few bids. Of that set I used B-dry and so have several of my friends.
If you know who installed the first system, and if it was a big outfit, the guarantee may be transferable. Do you have documents from the past owner?
A deep sink is exactly that. It is a utility sink that stands on feet off the floor. From top to bottom it is about 30 inches deep. Other than being deep, it is just like any other sink. Great for washing the dog.
The dry areas around the heaters is likey due to the increased heat in the area which speeds evaporation, and increased air flow from the combustion air drawn into the burners and up the exhaust flues.
You are going to find the cells in your block walls full of water. They act much like a sponge. Back in the old days they did not fill every cell with rebar and concrete as is done today. Make sure they are drilled.
Paint on the floor looks nice. Even the water barrier types will not stop water movement.
Keep in touch, good luck. |
Lydial
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 28, 2001 - 7:02 pm: | |
jqberkeley - thank you so much for your recommendations and explanations - I'm going to call the companies you recommended and see what they say. |
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