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ashear
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Username: Ashear

Post Number: 986
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2004 - 2:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is what she has to say about Silver Star winner Max Cleland:


quote:

Moreover, if we're going to start delving into exactly who did what back then, maybe Max Cleland should stop allowing Democrats to portray him as a war hero who lost his limbs taking enemy fire on the battlefields of Vietnam.

Cleland lost three limbs in an accident during a routine noncombat mission where he was about to drink beer with friends. He saw a grenade on the ground and picked it up. He could have done that at Fort Dix. In fact, Cleland could have dropped a grenade on his foot as a National Guardsman – or what Cleland sneeringly calls "weekend warriors." Luckily for Cleland's political career and current pomposity about Bush, he happened to do it while in Vietnam.

There is more than a whiff of dishonesty in how Cleland is presented to the American people. Terry McAuliffe goes around saying, "Max Cleland, a triple amputee who left three limbs on the battlefield of Vietnam," was thrown out of office because Republicans "had the audacity to call Max Cleland unpatriotic." Mr. Cleland, a word of advice: When a slimy weasel like Terry McAuliffe is vouching for your combat record, it's time to sound "retreat" on that subject. ...

Indeed, if Cleland had dropped a grenade on himself at Fort Dix rather than in Vietnam, he would never have been a U.S. senator in the first place. Maybe he'd be the best pharmacist in Atlanta, but not a U.S. senator. He got into office on the basis of serving in Vietnam and was thrown out for his performance as a senator.

Cleland wore the uniform, he was in Vietnam, and he has shown courage by going on to lead a productive life. But he didn't "give his limbs for his country," or leave them "on the battlefield." There was no bravery involved in dropping a grenade on himself with no enemy troops in sight. That could have happened in the Texas National Guard – which Cleland denigrates while demanding his own sanctification.




http://www.townhall.com/columnists/anncoulter/ac20040212.shtml

Here is the truth (Cleland's own version from his book):


quote:

'The battalion needs a better radio hookup with the vision supply area,' he said. 'I'd like you to send a radio relay team back there to improve communications.'

That meant setting up a radio relay station on a hill back at the division forward assembly area 15 miles to the east. Instead of sending a team alone, I decided to go with them to ensure they got set up properly.

With two men, I pulled together some antennas and a generator and some radios and loaded them on a chopper. The three of us climbed in and the helicopter lifted off. Within minutes, we had settled down by the radio relay station. The men and equipment were unloaded, and I climbed back into the chopper intending to go down to battalion rear headquarters.

Then two ideas crossed my mind. First, it would be better to work personally with my team in setting up the radio relay. Second, I had a lot of friends at this relay station and now was a good time to have a cold beer with them.

I called to the pilot that I was getting out. He nodded and held the ship steady. I jumped to the ground, ran in a crouch until I got clear of the spinning helicopter blades, turned around and watched the chopper lift.

Then I saw the grenade. It was where the chopper had lifted off.

It must be mine, I thought. Grenades had fallen off my web gear before. Shifting the M-16----

Shifting the M-16 to my left hand and holding it behind me, I bent down to pick up the grenade.

A blinding explosion threw me backwards.





I got the above from a floor speach by Senator Jack Reed: http://reed.senate.gov/speeches/cleland02-12-04.htm

In the speech Reed, a veteran, points out that this clearly was a combat mission. (Reed's speach has a bunch of editorial comments that I edited out but reading the original is instructive. He also mentions that Cleland later learned it was not his grenade and details the actions that earned him a Silver Star.)

I guess maybe we've all become used to this kind of putrid bile from the wacko right but you'd think they would be a bit more wary of putting a guy who volunteered to go to Nam and won the Silver Star up against a guy who just barely managed to get an honorable discharge and avoided the one risk he faced, flying, by skipping a physical.

Edited to add:

More on this here, where I originally heard about it: http://www.crookedtimber.org/archives/001352.html
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cjc
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Post Number: 953
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2004 - 3:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I always cringe when people on my side try to match or best the worst of the opposition. Yes -- she's vile.
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Dr. Winston O'Boogie
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Username: Casey

Post Number: 539
Registered: 8-2003


Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2004 - 5:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

the saddest (or funniest, I can't decide which) thing is that Coulter's books are full of those sorts of lies (or distortions, take your pick), and they're footnoted. just goes to show you can lie your face off, even when your sources are well-documented.
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JJC
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Username: Mercury

Post Number: 209
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Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2004 - 8:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One of her heros - Joseph McCarthy. Says it all.
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tom
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Username: Tom

Post Number: 2012
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Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2004 - 9:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And as McCarthy was once famously asked, "Until this moment, ... I think I never really gauged your cruelty or your recklessness. Let us not assassinate this lad further.... You have done enough. Have you no sense of decency?"

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ML1
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Username: Ml1

Post Number: 1576
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Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2004 - 11:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Without an iota of irony, she titled one of her books "Slander."

do you need to know any more about her?
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Duncan
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Username: Duncanrogers

Post Number: 1548
Registered: 12-2001


Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 7:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Folks..this was a pretty simple question, demanding a VERY simple answer...

NO

Alls Well That Ends Well. Playing through March 7. info at http://www.hometown.aol.com/theatr1010/
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Grateful Straw
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Username: Strawberry

Post Number: 1967
Registered: 10-2001


Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 8:49 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I like her and she's got a hot body as well
Look for awhile at the China Cat Sunflower proud-walking jingle in the midnight sun Copper-dome Bodhi drip a silver kimono like a crazy-quilt stargown through a dream night wind.
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guycaruso
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Username: Guycaruso

Post Number: 60
Registered: 1-2002
Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 9:20 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Anne Coulter is the right's answer to Michael Moore or Al Franken. She has a great wit, as the left would say Moore and Franken do. However even I found her making fun of an amputee in poor taste.
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ML1
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Username: Ml1

Post Number: 1578
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 10:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

now I get it. she's going for laughs.


That was essentially the question I asked a couple of years ago. Is she for real, or is her whole thing just shtick?

So she's not a hateful person, she's just a bad comedian.
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Nohero
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Post Number: 2897
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 10:18 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

CoulterGeist

It's a laff riot.
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guycaruso
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Username: Guycaruso

Post Number: 63
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 10:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Speaking of laugh riot.

Michael Moore Is Epically Wrong!
Geoff Metcalf
Thursday, Jan. 9, 2003
I read a piece by Yasmin Alibhai-Brown in the London Independent that made my blood boil. [http://argument.independent.co.uk/regular_columnists/ yasmin_alibhai_brown/story.jsp?story=366725]
Fat, slovenly, left-wing radical big-mouth Michael Moore pontificated to a London audience that the victims of 9/11 on the hijacked planes were wimps and if only more bad-ass black gangstas had been on board … "If the passengers had included black men," he claimed, "those killers, with their puny bodies and unimpressive small knives, would have been crushed by the dudes, who as we all know take no disrespect from anybody."
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harpo
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Username: Harpo

Post Number: 1266
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 10:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This isn't the first time Coulter has attacked disabled Viet Nam vets. During a long-ago debate on MSNBC with paralyzed vet Bobby Muller, president of the Vietnam Veterans of America Foundation, Coulter sreamed at him "No wonder you guys lost!" while Muller was explaining that 90 percent of American soldiers injured by landmines in Vietnam were blown up by mines Americans had laid. Coulter's remark wasn't intended as humor. She later claimed she didn't know Muller was disabled since she only saw him on a video screen. She can't say the same about Cleland.
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Addy
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Username: Addy

Post Number: 47
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 10:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A female Hitler.
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guycaruso
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Username: Guycaruso

Post Number: 65
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 10:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is a good thing that she didn't call Viet Vets "baby killers or Rapists" she left that to John Kerry.
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harpo
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Username: Harpo

Post Number: 1267
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 10:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What John Kerry really said on April 23, 1971 to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee:

"I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command. It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit - the emotions in the room and the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.

"They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Ghengis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country."

Now I suppose we could call them liars as well . . .

Here's the rest of the speech:

http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1064903/posts

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cjc
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Username: Cjc

Post Number: 956
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 11:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As a matter of fact, there have been studies and books that call the majority of the broad-brushed claims made against all US forces in the Winter Soldier Investigation just that. Were there atrocities? Yes. Was it SOP and applauded and encouraged at all levels of command? No. Was it as widespread as portrayed? No. And that's why Kerry has a tough time with a major portion of veterans on this issue who did not commit war crimes.

I read somewhere recently where Kerry has since said about the troops there "of course they're not all in the same pot" or words to that effect. To many with a far closer and more meaningful relationship with that war, the damage was already done.
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GOP STRAW
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Username: Strawberry

Post Number: 1970
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 11:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation .. And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003
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tom
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Username: Tom

Post Number: 2019
Registered: 5-2001


Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 11:16 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Guy, why do you feel that distorting Kerry's remarks into something they aren't adds to the overall level of knowledge? Is your position so weak that it has to depend on the slant and the omission rather than the straight story? Surely if Democrats are as wrong as you seem to believe we are, you -- for that matter, Anne Coulter -- ought to be able to find enough true facts on which to base your case, rather than having to resort to making things up.
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Nohero
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Username: Nohero

Post Number: 2898
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 11:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Straw: Here's the whole speech, in case it wasn't included on the RNC talking points you received.

And, here's a more extended excerpt, with the passage you quoted (the highlights are mine):

quote:

Second, without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. We all know the litany of his offenses.

He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. He miscalculated an eight-year war with Iran. He miscalculated the invasion of Kuwait. He miscalculated America's response to that act of naked aggression. He miscalculated the result of setting oil rigs on fire. He miscalculated the impact of sending scuds into Israel and trying to assassinate an American President. He miscalculated his own military strength. He miscalculated the Arab world's response to his misconduct. And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction.

That is why the world, through the United Nations Security Council, has spoken with one voice, demanding that Iraq disclose its weapons programs and disarm.

So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but it is not new. It has been with us since the end of the Persian Gulf War. Regrettably the current Administration failed to take the opportunity to bring this issue to the United Nations two years ago or immediately after September 11th, when we had such unity of spirit with our allies. When it finally did speak, it was with hasty war talk instead of a coherent call for Iraqi disarmament. And that made it possible for other Arab regimes to shift their focus to the perils of war for themselves rather than keeping the focus on the perils posed by Saddam's deadly arsenal. Indeed, for a time, the Administration's unilateralism, in effect, elevated Saddam in the eyes of his neighbors to a level he never would have achieved on his own, undermining America's standing with most of the coalition partners which had joined us in repelling the invasion of Kuwait a decade ago.

In U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441, the United Nations has now affirmed that Saddam Hussein must disarm or face the most serious consequences. Let me make it clear that the burden is resoundingly on Saddam Hussein to live up to the ceasefire agreement he signed and make clear to the world how he disposed of weapons he previously admitted to possessing. But the burden is also clearly on the Bush Administration to do the hard work of building a broad coalition at the U.N. and the necessary work of educating America about the rationale for war.

As I have said frequently and repeat here today, the United States should never go to war because it wants to, the United States should go to war because we have to. And we don't have to until we have exhausted the remedies available, built legitimacy and earned the consent of the American people, absent, of course, an imminent threat requiring urgent action.

The Administration must pass this test. I believe they must take the time to do the hard work of diplomacy. They must do a better job of making their case to the American people and to the world.


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cjc
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Post Number: 957
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 11:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

tom -- for pete's sake, what do you call Kerry's statement that US forces "randomly shot at civilians"? I mean, what is that? Did people just make up "baby-killer' back then and shout it 'randomly' at any soldier they saw?

Coulter is a wacko, all right? But Kerry's comments stand as they are and they offend some of the very soldiers and now citizens he claims to stand up for.
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Cato Nova
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Username: Cato_nova

Post Number: 59
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 11:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Has Coulter ever posed naked? I would think better of her if she had. I tend to give more credence to conservative writers if they are willing to pose in the buff. I fantasize about George Will in a thong sometimes . . .
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guycaruso
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Post Number: 66
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 11:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dave and Harpo
I don't think I distorted , I may have paraphrased for the reason of keeping it short. In Kerry's 1971" The New Soldier" book he states
American soldiers "were killing women and children" and helping to create "a nation of refugees, bomb craters, amputees, orphans, widows, and prostitutes" in Vietnam

My point is that if he is entitled to his opinion , the so is Anne Coulter, but I agree her Cleland comments we out of line.
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GOP STRAW
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Username: Strawberry

Post Number: 1971
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 11:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
- President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

"Iraq is a long way from [the USA], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
- Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
- Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin,
Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
- Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,)
and others, December 5, 2001

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandated of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in
power."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the
next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his
chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do" Rep.
- Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members .. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002









Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation .. And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003
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Nohero
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Username: Nohero

Post Number: 2899
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 11:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998


Looks like Clinton actually succeeded at that. There was no need for Bush to go f*@k things up, after all.
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guycaruso
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Post Number: 67
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 11:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Straw , this why I want Bush against Kerry. The GOP ads can basically write themselves.
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Nohero
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 11:51 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They "write themselves" only if quotes are taken out of context, dude.

Bush will be relying on the "Big Lie" technique - that is, just repeat things, even if they are not true, and eventually people may believe it. So, you are in a sense correct - if Bush gets away with the "Big Lie" technique, he will be re-elected.

Thank goodness for the "librul media".
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guycaruso
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Post Number: 68
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 12:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In my mind Kerry should not be critizing Bush based on what he said in his speech. As Teddy Roosevelt once said:
It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat
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tom
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Post Number: 2020
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 12:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kerry's statement above starts with "They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians..." emphasis added. The "They" being veterans telling their first-hand stories. Kerry is reporting what these selfsame veterans admitted. It is not slanderous.

By just blithely saying "Kerry's statement that US forces 'randomly shot at civilians'" is a distortion because it implies that that is just Kerry's own opinion. The prelude that the veterans had themselves told how they personally had done this changes the entire context of the paragraph.
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cjc
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Post Number: 963
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Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 1:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If that's the case tom, why did the "baby-killers' phrase get tossed around so easily? This is what a large chunk of veterans resent.

Additionally, why weren't these stories verified and prosecuted? Books and studies have p--sed all over a lot of these claims. This adds fuel to what veterans resent.

Kerry just reported what vets told him, and he passed it along with no questioning or attempt or call to verify? He didn't just report what others were telling him, he stood behind it as fact. This is what veterans resent -- and have been long before the rise of the vast right wing conspiracy in the news.

"Full awareness of officers at all levels of command"? Tom...please. Fine...some veterans AND Kerry make that claim. It's not true and/or hasn't been verified to the level stated and implied upon further review. Did Mi Lai happen? Yes. Was it pervasive and SOP? No. And there's the rub for quite a lot of veterans and their families.

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tom
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Registered: 5-2001


Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 1:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I checked the Kerry speech link above, the words "baby" and "killer" do not appear. Another shot of squid ink. Who is it that's doing the tossing around, and what does Kerry have to do with it?

Anyway, what does this ancient history have to do with anything? Does it somehow negate the fact that virtually the entire Bush administration is made up of chicken-hawks? That seems to be the goal. If, like our illustrious VP, you had mysterious "other angendas," you'd be quite unlikely to have any firsthand knowledge to speak of.

And we have a professional army now, I doubt that these things are problems anymore.
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cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc

Post Number: 965
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 1:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

.....waste...of...time.
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harpo
Citizen
Username: Harpo

Post Number: 1268
Registered: 6-2001
Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 2:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colin Powell wrote in his memoir:

"My Lai was an appalling example of much that had gone wrong in Vietnam.... The involvement of so many unprepared officers and non-coms led to breakdowns in morale, discipline, and professional judgment--and to horrors like My Lai--as the troops became numb to what appeared to be endless and mindless slaughter."

Hear any protests about that broad brush portrayal of Vietnam Vets coming from the rightwing?

Interestingly, Christopher Hitchens has often excoriated Powell for having participated in an attempt to squelch an investigation into My Lai.

Perhaps soon we'll hear from that other Kerrey (Bob) on the subject of soldier atrocities, and why it has been impossible to get an accurate reading of what happened.

Regarding phrases like 'baby-killers' gaining currency, take a look at what happened with the "returning vets were spat upon" myth. No matter how many times it's shown to be urban legend, people keep the myth in circulation. Might be the same with vets being called baby-killers. One thing is sure: John Kerry didn't call them that.
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bobk
Supporter
Username: Bobk

Post Number: 4735
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Friday, February 20, 2004 - 2:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nobody is going to deny that Vietnam was a dirty little war and extremely frustrating for the American kids who were sent to fight it. However, please remember that the North Vietnamese were not peaceful agricultural reformers. During Tet when they initially took most of Hue the commissars were right behind the combat troops with their lists of enemies of the people. They executed at least 2,500 "reactionary elements" in the first day or so of the battle with a bullet in the back of the head.

For a good part of the war no quarter was given and none asked for. I don't condone My Lai, in fact I deplore it. It is a horrible example of inexperienced and poorly led troops loosing any sense of discipline. However, the whole dirty frigging war has to be reviewed in context.
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tom
Citizen
Username: Tom

Post Number: 2095
Registered: 5-2001


Posted on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 12:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.agitproperties.com/osc/eshop/popup_image.php?pID=10

(that's the sanitized version)
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anon
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Username: Anon

Post Number: 1015
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 3:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

May we please have the un-sanitized version?
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Diversity Man
Citizen
Username: Deadwhitemale

Post Number: 665
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 8:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why won't Kerry authorize release of his medical records for the three, or was it four so-called wounds which got him stateside after only four months?
I read on Thursday past in the New York Sun that he did not miss one day of active duty.
The truth is under his control. Out with it.
If what he said about himself is true, then he was a child murdering, adult limb amputating thug.
Now for the rest of it.
DWM
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tom
Citizen
Username: Tom

Post Number: 2098
Registered: 5-2001


Posted on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 9:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

go to http://www.agitproperties.com/osc/eshop/product_info.php?products_id=14 and click on the picture for a bigger version
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tjohn
Citizen
Username: Tjohn

Post Number: 2291
Registered: 12-2001


Posted on Monday, March 1, 2004 - 7:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's funny, Tom. Perhaps if Janet Jackson and Justin Timberlake had seen all of the outcry over Coulter's cartoon nipples, they would have had second thoughts about their Super Bowl stunt.

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