| Author | Message | ||
     J. Crohn Citizen Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 914 Registered: 3-2003 |
"I suppose the snotty answer would be...' Well I guess we're at the end of any possibility of a meaningful discussion, so I'll bow out. | ||
| sbenois Citizen Username: Sbenois Post Number: 10731 Registered: 10-2001  |
Harpo, Please answer my questions regarding the UN being even handed. You don't seem to grasp that until the UN changes the way it approaches Israel, they will never be in a position to help solve the problem. Israel distrusts the UN. I do too. ---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <- The Cafe Sbenois is pleased to announce that a fresh batch of Yumsters just arrived thanks to the pinpoint accuracy of the Sbenois Deer Howitzer. Stop in today and ask for one with cheese. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1239 Registered: 6-2001 |
Sb, It's been 55 years since UN resolution 181 in 1947 until today, with plenty of episodes that indicate a lack of evenhandedness or equality in political weight at the UN has both favored and disfavored Israel. Right now the UN is in no position to help with any problems in the Middle East, and we all know why, but that may change significantly. My question to you was really simply: How do you see the situation in 5 years? 10 years? | ||
| sbenois Citizen Username: Sbenois Post Number: 10736 Registered: 10-2001 |
Harpo, More than 25% of every resolution the UN has passed has been against Israel. The UN has spent more on this tiny country than any other issue they've dealt with in their sorry history. If I had the patience I'd find you a link to show you that not only has the UN NEVER been even-handed, they've been decidedly anti-Israel since 1949. This pathetic organization is broken because of their own sorry track record not because of the US. I don't see any change unless Arafat is buried. ---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <- The Cafe Sbenois is pleased to announce that a fresh batch of Yumsters just arrived thanks to the pinpoint accuracy of the Sbenois Deer Howitzer. Stop in today and ask for one with cheese. | ||
| J. Crohn Citizen Username: Jcrohn Post Number: 918 Registered: 3-2003 |
Sbenois: "Israel has simply got to find a more lawful, less wanton type of justice than launching missiles into crowded streets and hoping that they don't hit or injure anyone but their intended targets." Assuming that's possible, anyone would wish they would. But I'm not sure it is possible. So, what concerns me more at the moment is the fact that the separation fence (which in some areas is a wall) has put too many Arab villagers on the wrong side of the divide. The intention, of course, is to force them to leave. But they won't leave, and their dispossession is unjust in any case, at least wherever those people are not terrorists or abettors of terrorists. The Sharon admin has no intention of offering them citizenship (and a Jewish state cannot absorb another 90,000 Arabs without hastening the demise of its raison d'etre). But realistically, they are going to have to be compensated one way or another, and I fear it won't happen any time soon. Israeli legal rights activists have succeeded in forcing Sharon to divert the fence in some areas to the south for "humanitarian" reasons. One can only pray the Israeli supreme court will intervene sometime after the dust settles, and that these people will not be left with even less than they had before their property got "redistricted". | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1241 Registered: 6-2001 |
sb, I'm going to ask you to do the seemingly impossible and just forget our past disagreements for a moment and totally forget it's harpo who is drawing the following sketch of what is so disturbing about the present moment in the Middle East. I promise not to pull any fast ones on you. When most educated people say they recognize or support Israel's right to exist, they don't say that based on the recognition of any religious-based right or history-based right. What they are saying is that they recognize that the state of Israel was firmly established by international law, whether they personally agree with ideas of Zionism or not. The international community and ordinary citizens throughout the world, but especially in the West, reached a working consensus about Israel's right to exist based on just that and that alone: the trascendent value of respecting international law writ large, not just the UN. That consensus held through successive wars, since Isarel was seen as acting in defense of its legally established borders. That consensus held for much of the occupation years, because people saw Israel negotiating for peace and security using legal means, even if it rightly rejected UN posturing. What is so dangerous to the people of Israel is the increasing perception, bolstered by real words and real actions from Israel, that Israel no longer has any regard for international law or even the shared concept of it. Many Israelis are defending actions that clearly fall outside legality and violate human rights, and they are doing this in matters that have nothing to do with legitimate self-defense. And these are not small ticket areas. Doing this shatters the consensus for Israel and will continue to do so -- and it's not because "Aha! It turns out they're all really anti-Semites!" It's because later this year George Bush wants the trial of Saddam to be a highly public meditation on crimes against Arab peoples, reliving Saddam's gassing of the Kurds, his cultural genocide against the Marsh Arabs, his rapes, etc. It's because the EU has just spent more than a dozen painful years crafting laws to facilitate open borders despite past violence and its member nations are committed to building of pluralistic, multicultural societies, integrating Muslims. It's because liberals who supported the Iraq war did it to ballyhoo democracy and bring it to the Arab world, and nobody is going to go along with anything less than one man one vote in the long run. It's because most of the educated world has been converted to the belief that respect for human rights is paramount in the 21st century. If the ideology of Ariel Sharon and Benny Morris becomes or now is the only visible ideology of Israel -- if that older, legally based Israel is out the window post Barak -- then Israel has gotten itself on the wrong side of history, the wrong side of the future. Yes, evangelical Christians -- who love all talk of a morality that is above human-created law and a good Crusade -- will stand with Israel. Oh, and the Indians, who have their own problems with Muslims and want to keep their nukes, too, while we take away Musharraf's. It's not enough. Were it not for Israel's nuclear arsenal, nobody but a handful of people would care one iota about what happens to the people there, since we now can get the oil without them. If people are determined to be at war, who can stop them? But watching Israel operate with Sharon's government, seemingly bent on provocative violence in pursuit of an illusory military victory is frightening. It really does have WMD. There are thousands of innocent people in that tiny space -- I am including Israelis -- surrounded by societies in turmoil exacerbated by the Iraq war, who have no place else to go -- and again, I am talking about many Israelis. George Bush has irresponsibly and recklessly bailed from the problem. I don't know what the rest of the world can do but I think it will want to do something to bring Israel back to recognizing legal norms, negotiating for peace and make it party to a regional nuclear disarmament at a minimum. I believe Arafat is already politically buried. The US helped do it at Sharon's request. But even if he isn't, he's not the greatest threat Israelis face. Violence against Israelis can go on without Arafat. Sharon's recklessness will as well. Israelis are going to have to bury Sharonism politically, and the entire notion, laid bare by Benny Morris, that the state of Israel has a unique historic right to violate other people's human rights, whether or not Israeli lives are directly at stake. If you haven't read Benny Morris, I really recommend it. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1057399/posts And if you still think this all just my private overblownist elitism, take a look at this editorial from Britain: http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,10551,1146154,00.html | ||
| ashear Citizen Username: Ashear Post Number: 966 Registered: 5-2001 |
Harpo - I'm not unsympathetic to many of the points you make. I do think that Sharon has done a great deal to make the situation worse. What bothers me about your summary is that, while you spend a lot of time talking about illegal actions by Israel, there is no mention of the Palestinians. While Israel was, by your lights, obeying international law, the Palestinians were blowing up innocent people. And where was the international community? Now Sharon violates international law, the Palestinians still blow up innocent people. Either way Israel is the one condemned by the UN. What is their incentive to play by the rules when no one cares what the other side does. As I write this I find it sounds more right wing than I am or feel. I think there is a moral imperative for Israel to not only come to a settlement with the Palestinians, but to aid in their economic development. But your one sided presentation really bugs me, and obviously others. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1242 Registered: 6-2001 |
ashear, I don't think it's at all true that "no one cares what the other side does" or fails to blame those responsible for the suicide bombings and Palestinian obstructionism. I realized after I wrote my post that one of the other things I also didn't explicitly spell out -- because I took it for granted everybody reading MOL knew it -- is that the Palestinians, along with other Arab nations, do not recognize Israel''s right to exist, not even its legal right to exist under established international law. Even absent the suicide bombings, Palestinian legitimacy requires that recognition. Since you are so honest in your own posts about your complex feelings, I'll be equally honest in mine: I find it irritating that anyone would think I approve of suicide or any kind of terrorist bombings, or demand of me a statement to that effect under penalty of either "not being taken seriously" or creating a false accusation that not issuing condemnations means I do approve of them or calling me an anti-Semite (not that you would). I realize people have strongly emotional feelings about everything having to do with the Middle East and complex personal histories, which I try not to step on, but give me a break too. If you look again at my post, I didn't spend a lot of time talking about illegal actions by Israel. And I did specify that none of this is about what Israelis do as a matter of legitimate self-defense (which may end up breaking rules). What I was trying to point out in my post is that when Israel acts outside international law it is a fundamental danger to Israel, a self-inflicted wound, simply because most people regard Israel as owing its existence to international law, not history or religion. And such actions allow the Palestinians to justify their own violations of international law as necessary to their national aspirations, too. The murk appears to give them cover. I have to make one more comment which will perhaps do more than irritiate you. You wrote: "While Israel was, by your lights, obeying international law, the Palestinians were blowing up innocent people." Nothing justifies the attacks on civilians by Palestinians at any time, but if Benny Morris is correct, the history of Israel acting outside international law and creating innocent victims dates back to day one of its existence as a state. I'm not saying it's been an unbroken chain. But the Palestinians know this history, even if others are only learning it now. Israelis are going to have to examine this history and if it's true, perhaps begin a new dialogue with the Palestinians and consider the likelihood that a negotiated settlement with Palestinians will have to include reparations for these acts in some form. | ||
| Ukealalio Citizen Username: Ukealalio Post Number: 453 Registered: 6-2003 |
ashear-Don't waste your time. Harpo sidesteps everytime you ask her any hard questions about the Palestinians. It always comes down to, "yes but the Israeli's". Her evasiveness, will tell you all you want to know about her personal feelings, | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1244 Registered: 6-2001 |
Ukelalio, Your remarks are highly offensive, not merely irritating. In every one of my posts, I initially responded to a specific subject already under discussion, to a specific poster in response to a specific question, and that subject save for one instance concerned Israeli behavior, which was the subject that started this thread in the first place. And I answered the question about Arafat. You and a handful of others have repeatedly intervened to demand I and I alone go beyond my answer to issue declarations clearing myself of unfounded slurs. I'm not being evasive. I've told you before I won't do it and why. Your remarks about knowing my personal feelings reflect your mentality, not mine. Other people have found a way to disagree with me without impugning my character. It's your problem, nobody else's. | ||
| Ukealalio Citizen Username: Ukealalio Post Number: 455 Registered: 6-2003 |
Harpo-The dance continues but your flying solo. This is going nowhere, so I'm out. Just for the record, how did I impugn your character ?. You obviously think your right, so by sticking to your point of view (regardless if I agree or disagree), your character is unscathed. It's strange that you reacted so negatively to my post, while you just shrugged off the Nazi and Anti-Semite comments (which I already told you I disagreed with). I must be touching a nerve. | ||
| harpo Citizen Username: Harpo Post Number: 1247 Registered: 6-2001 |
Ukelalio, Touching a nerve? Why not consider a more likely possiblity for a moment, that you may have been being obnoxious? Look, if you go back and look at this thread, you will see that I entered when I noticed joso was being almost willfully misunderstood for using language that was only technically incorrect language for the point she/he was making. People were trying to de-legitimize what was being said because of some mildly incorrect choice of words when the essentially true message was perfectly clear. You further tried to de-legitimize joso posts by claiming that unless the poster had been to Israel, what was being posted was worthless. You then tried to de-legitimize my posts that included criticisms of Israel because I failed to include criticisms of the Palestinians to YOUR satisfaction. I don't demand you agree with my view of Israel at this moment. But you made a hobbyhorse out of claiming what I DIDN'T say, not what I did say, ought to be proof to others that I harbored ill will or lack of sympathy or some other negativities that I don't, and you were quite confidently moralistic about it. Understand the problem now? I didn't comment on being called a nazi and an anti-Semite because other people did and the two posters were booted. I've stared you down and reacted negatively to your persistent posts because I'm tired of efforts to de-legitimize people who, with facts and reason, criticize Israel. Argue the facts if you want to or can. You might be right. Express your feelings honestly. But innuendo and slurs and assumptions have no place in any serious, adult discussion, and in the case of Israel, it further complicates her situation, I think to her detriment. | ||
| Ukealalio Citizen Username: Ukealalio Post Number: 458 Registered: 6-2003 |
Harpo-I promise not to respond to anything else you post on this thread so you can get the last word.I still disagree. Any fair discourse on this subject should contain some form of acknowledgement of the other sides suffering, I don't think you've done this. Everthing comes back to another criticism of Israel and Sharon. Yes you've danced around showing some empathy for Israel but nothing substantive. As far as factual information supporting Israel, there's a plethora of it above, don't have the time or energy to continue. It's been (sort of) fun debating with you but were gettin nowhere. I may not like your point of view but your resolve is admirable. | ||
| Grateful Straw Citizen Username: Strawberry Post Number: 1925 Registered: 10-2001  |
First off to clear something up. I never called Harpo a Nazi. I said her views which are clearly of the copy and paste variety are very much anti-Jewish views which I consider the same views expressed during Nazi Germany. Hopefully this clears things up for the Ashears or the pacifist Jews who still can't believe someone would hate his guts because of his religion. La la land, to a degree, I guess. The Israeli nation says "Never Again" and that doctrine is clear. The Israeli Government WILL FOREVER protect the Jewish people from atrocities felt for thousands of years. From the Pogroms to the Nazis and so forth. This has never been more clear then from what we've seen over the last 3 years or since the Palestinian uprising. When Clinton nearly got a peace deal done only to have Arafat walk away, all chances for peace were dead. Since that time the Palestinians have constantly fired suicide bombers into the nation of Israel with deadly accuracy. The response has been exactly what it needs to be. When one side declares war, the other responds. Harpo can use the settlements and the security wall and anything else she chooses as an excuse for why the Palestinans have the right to blow up Jews, but in the end it is her views that we Americans need to rebut. Now I'm sure Harpo is just some housewife alone with her 2 cats and dog so she's not exactly a threat. However, it is the Harpos who are easily influenced by what she reads or sees on TV. As a result, each time we see a harpo spewing ant-semitic views and yes being anti-israel is anti-semitism we need to kick that person in the teeth. If Israel is the Jewish state, than those who oppose its existance really oppose Jews. PERIOD! Harpo your views are an insult to millions of Jews. You have accomplished nothing other then making it clear that your presence here in Maplewood is one we can do without. You have also made it clear that you don't understand the issues of the Middle East. You know nothing of the history of Israel and you know nothing about the goals of the nation. Keep up the good work Harpo. Thanks for the insults. Look for awhile at the China Cat Sunflower proud-walking jingle in the midnight sun Copper-dome Bodhi drip a silver kimono like a crazy-quilt stargown through a dream night wind. | ||
| anon Citizen Username: Anon Post Number: 975 Registered: 6-2002 |
Now you've done it Straw! I didn't think it was possible, but you've actually made me feel sorry for Harpo! And there is not one Jew on the face of the Earth who does not know that there are those who hate Jews just because they are Jews. And it doesn't usually have anything to do with religion. Anti-semites hate completely secular Jews as much as the hate the haredi. | ||
| Grateful Straw Citizen Username: Strawberry Post Number: 1926 Registered: 10-2001 |
edited before Dave could see it..  Look for awhile at the China Cat Sunflower proud-walking jingle in the midnight sun Copper-dome Bodhi drip a silver kimono like a crazy-quilt stargown through a dream night wind. | ||
| sbenois Citizen Username: Sbenois Post Number: 10746 Registered: 10-2001 |
I saw it. Dave, please suspend him. ---> Brought to you by Sbenois Engineering LLC <- Let's Go Royals | ||
| anon Citizen Username: Anon Post Number: 980 Registered: 6-2002 |
I saw it too. I began to respond and then thought better of it. It was beyond the pale. | ||
| Montagnard Citizen Username: Montagnard Post Number: 425 Registered: 6-2003 |
Quite a few Israelis manage to criticize their own government without being called anti-Semitic. I'm not Jewish myself, but it seems to me that even if I took a position on Israeli government actions based on the considered viewpoints of responsible Israeli politicians (it's a multi-party state, after all), then someone on this board would accuse me of being anti-Semitic, even though the same ideas are common currency in Israel. There's some very wierd logic around here sometimes. | ||
| Grateful Straw Citizen Username: Strawberry Post Number: 1928 Registered: 10-2001 |
Sbenois, I'm not to worried because Dave stopped listening to you 2 years ago.  Look for awhile at the China Cat Sunflower proud-walking jingle in the midnight sun Copper-dome Bodhi drip a silver kimono like a crazy-quilt stargown through a dream night wind. |
