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SO Ref
Citizen
Username: So_refugee
Post Number: 1444
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 7:21 pm: | 
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For the past year, my brother has been bending my ear about the Fair Tax Plan that has been written about by radio talk show host Neal Boortz and congressman John Linder.
Boiled down, it basically replaces the federal income taxes with a standardized consumption tax, vastly simplifies the tax system and doesn't increase the tax burden on the poor.
For more details on the Fair Tax, check out the website...(http://www.fairtax.org/)
Anyone have any thoughts on the plan?
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Nohero
Supporter
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 4947
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 7:35 pm: |
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Other than that it's bullsh*t? |
Nohero
Supporter
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 4948
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 7:36 pm: |
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or horse-hockey? |
Nohero
Supporter
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 4949
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 7:37 pm: |
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or just plain phony cr*p? |
Nohero
Supporter
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 4950
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 7:37 pm: |
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No, I don't have any other thoughts.  |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 5040
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 8:02 pm: |
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The idea that people would pay the same rate of tax on either their consumption or income is heresy to progressive class warriors like Nohero. They just can't assuage their guilt of being successful or in America (this assumes of course they aren't failed losers -- a possible stretch) without having those who are successful penalized by the tax code. They feel better about themselves when this penalization happens, they can wear more ribbons of concern at cocktail parties and claim to be compassionate individuals. You have to go to parties of shallow, clueless people to have this happen, which is easy in the Northeast, so they feel they're in the majority too.
This is also because they believe the mechanism that funds the government - taxation and tariffs (though tariffs were how the government was funded at it's founding) -- has to engage in social engineering. That system which funds the government most efficiently and effectively, not to mention the most fair way possible isn't a primary, secondary, or any 'dary' concern of theirs because that's not what taxation is really for to them.
If we have a fair tax be it on consumption or income where if you consume/earn 10 times as much that you'll be taxed 10 times as much no matter what floor amount that's exempt, socialists and progressives will go guano on you. That's why their responses were scatological in nature.
As an example, look at their responses to the impending Social Security crisis that is fast approaching. They have nothing to constructive to say. |
Nohero
Supporter
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 4951
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 8:16 pm: |
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"If we have a fair tax be it on consumption or income where if you consume/earn 10 times as much that you'll be taxed 10 times as much no matter what floor amount that's exempt, socialists and progressives will go guano on you. That's why their responses were scatological in nature." I'm sorry, let me elaborate.
Let's assume that your flat rate on consumption is adopted.
Some people (usually of lower income) have to spend practically everything they earn on "consumption".
Other people (usually of higher income) spend part of what they earn on "consumption", and put the rest to work in savings, investments, etc.
End result - under the so-called "fair" plan, the lower income people pay a higher percentage of their earnings in taxes, than the higher income people.
For those of you keeping score at home, that is a "regressive" tax plan.
My earlier comments still apply, of course. |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 525
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 8:22 pm: |
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SO,
Please. You set this up like you want a real debate when everyone who reads this board for longer than a week understands you are a true lib. I guess this is your way of trying to move past the Alito fiasco for your Democratic brethren. Nothing like going back to the class warfare theme that you Dems think is a bread and butter play for you. Let's see how long this thread takes to get to some good ole fashioned name calling. As for me I won't bite. I'll simply continue watching conservatives get elected and small tax victories along the way. |
SO Ref
Citizen
Username: So_refugee
Post Number: 1445
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 8:24 pm: |
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Did you actually read this plan or are you simply arguing against Steve Forbes' plan from the 90s?
from the website...
Quote:How does the FairTax protect low-income and lower middle-income families and individuals? Under the FairTax plan, poor people pay no net FairTax at all up to the poverty level! Every household receives a rebate that is equal to the FairTax paid on essential goods and services, and wage earners are no longer subject to the most regressive and burdensome tax of all, the payroll tax. Those spending at twice the poverty level will pay a tax of only 11.5 percent – a rate much lower than the income and payroll tax burden they bear today.
Under the federal income tax, slow economic growth and recessions have a disproportionately adverse impact on lower income families. Breadwinners in these families are more likely to lose their jobs, are less likely to have the resources to weather bad economic times, and are more in need of the initial employment opportunities that a dynamic, growing economy provides. The FairTax dramatically improves economic growth and wage rates. Retaining the present tax system makes economic progress needlessly slow, thus harming low-income people the most.
In contrast, the FairTax dramatically improves economic growth and wage rates for all, but especially for lower income families and individuals. In addition to receiving the monthly FairTax rebate, these taxpayers are freed from regressive payroll taxes, the federal income tax, and the compliance burdens associated with each. They pay no more hidden taxes on goods (averaging 22 percent) or services (averaging 25 percent), and used goods are tax-free.
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SO Ref
Citizen
Username: So_refugee
Post Number: 1446
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 8:26 pm: |
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Southerner,
Not all of us are closed-minded nor think that life is a game like you do... |
Nohero
Supporter
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 4953
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 8:29 pm: |
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SO Ref - I have to admit that I am unable to cut through the verbiage of the plan, to figure out how this affects those above the poverty level, but still in the less affluent part of the earnings scale. If they truly pay less, and if the more affluent pay less, then something else has to "give". That something else is not just the "safety net", but all of the other services that government provides us (for example, I happen to be a fan of the CDC and environmental protection, to name two services off the top of my head).
The proponents have not explained how this system (which, after all their protestations, still seems regressive with respect to lower income earners) is not simply a way to slash revenues (a/k/a the "starve the beast" mentality).
As for comments such as this -"Please. You set this up like you want a real debate when everyone who reads this board for longer than a week understands you are a true lib." Oh, great.
Now you've gone and ruined it for everyone who thought that I was going to endorse warrantless searches.
Thanks a lot, sport. 
I gather you have nothing to actually justify the so-called "fair" plan. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 5043
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 8:29 pm: |
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Even if you put a floor in that say, excludes the first 40K of earnings in a flat tax from taxation (which takes care of the truly poor who may still qualify for an income tax return on NO INCOME TAX PAID), progressives will still stand with their p*ny crap responses because it's downright awful that someone might eek out some savings. These are savings all people encourage, don't you know, but if you really save, then that's a bad thing. Best if you only save....whatever is 'good' to the compassion fascists. Anything above that level in an activity you supposedly are encouraging is BAD and must be limited.
It's not that the poor are exempted, you see. It's that the non-poor are successful. Best if we're all equally miserable, and if that's not possible we'll just slam those who are successul, claim to be successful yourself and justly slammed and then wear ribbons at parties to prove how virtuous we are. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 4212
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 8:46 pm: |
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Oh come on. |
The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1356
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 9:04 pm: |
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I have to admit that I am unable to cut through the verbiage of the plan, to figure out how this affects those above the poverty level,
nohero, do you know what it is called when someone vehemently attacks a plan without having any real understanding of the plan they are attacking? do you? hmm, do you?
ignorance
now it is time for you to go review some movies you havent seen. |
Nohero
Supporter
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 4955
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 9:53 pm: |
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nohero, do you know what it is called when someone vehemently attacks a plan without having any real understanding of the plan they are attacking? do you? hmm, do you?
ignorance Actually, it's called "The people proposing the plan are hiding something in the fine print."
I was being polite.
To be more blunt, I remain unconvinced that the plan is anything other than a move to a more regressive tax system.
Happy now? |
Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 8405
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 9:54 pm: |
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Nohero,
Did you read the part about "collections"? One state can outsource the collecting to another state. You can't make this stuff up. |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 10291
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 6:12 am: |
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This is basically a VAT, a value added tax. One proposal I read was the rate would have to be around 30 percent to feed the current level of government spending, although it looks like the advocates are talking a lower rate. This would hit the middle class, those earning from around 50k to 200k very hard since the traditional middle class exemptions of property tax and mortgage interest would be eliminated and most people in this income range spend most of what they earn. Most of their savings is in 401k plans and the equivalent and in appreciation of real estate.
The way CJC is talking it would eliminate Social Security taxes and I presume the benefits as well.
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Duncan
Supporter
Username: Duncanrogers
Post Number: 5581
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 9:12 am: |
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nohere...based on the news record article last week I expect to be credited for all future usage of the term "Horse Hockey"
thankee |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 10292
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 9:29 am: |
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If you are middle class and buy into this program you have to drink the koolaid that this plan will eliminate "hidden taxes". This is possible, but the benefit will go into the pocket of the corporation currently paying them. |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 526
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 9:52 am: |
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Nohero,
You are correct. I have not looked at the plan at all and could care less. A monumental change in the tax structure is fantasy land and I don't live in the world of fantasy. What I do know is that Boortz has sold a ton of books and is raking in the dough. That is not fantasy.
And I'm sure SO really wants genuine information on the subject. No way would he simply be trolling for a class warfare fight. It only took him an hour to lob his first "article" out there. Why doesn't he just read the book if he has questions about the book?
And lastly Nohero, you are taking a page from Foj. Do you really think that many posts are required on one thread. Your first post was sufficient to give your opinion. |
SO Ref
Citizen
Username: So_refugee
Post Number: 1449
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 9:59 am: |
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Southy,
Some folks look for open/honest discourse. I guess you do not. Now go back to getting ready for the start of NASCAR season. |
sbenois
Supporter
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 14426
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 10:22 am: |
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Duncan,
I would like full credit for Thankey. And if you're going to use it, please spell it correctly.
Thankey. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 5044
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 10:39 am: |
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"Starve the beast" is up there with Alar killing our children. It doesn't happen. The government never does with less. You can cry about deficits, but you lose credibility when you don't fix Social Security and Medicare, while advocating larger government programs.
Dems are mired in class warfare that has nothing to do with fairness. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 4213
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 11:11 am: |
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Well if starve the beast doesn't happen, then the tax-cut warriors need to be told so that they stop trying.
But before you start the "class warfare" outcry, tell me: do you think Mr. Boortz's own, personal taxes would go up, or down, according to his plan? |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 5047
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 12:25 pm: |
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I have no idea on Boortz, what businesses he has, what he's said, or how his taxes would be effected. Taxes are cut to increase economic activity, growth and ultimately revenue flowing in the US Treasury to be spent (or misspent). That's why conservatives want to cut taxes. That, and the issue of fairness and how much of your money the government is entitled to take. |
Duncan
Supporter
Username: Duncanrogers
Post Number: 5589
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 3:49 pm: |
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Duly noted Sbenois.
my apologies for the bad spelling. |
Foj
Citizen
Username: Foger
Post Number: 857
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 8:02 pm: |
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I'll do the bad spelling around here. |
wendy
Supporter
Username: Wendy
Post Number: 1966
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 8:39 pm: |
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Duncan, a creative person such as yourself, I'm frankly surprised that you apologized so quickly to S. My first thought in reading your "thankee" was: this is an artist. Just as Branagh built on Olivier's Hamlet, the famous Duncan is adding his own imprimatur to the classic MOL saying. |
Hank Zona
Supporter
Username: Hankzona
Post Number: 5129
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 8:53 pm: |
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seems like wendy is looking for comp tickets to Duncan's next show.  |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 528
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 9:45 pm: |
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SO,
You are so funny and witty. The Nascar line has been used several other times. Now, SO, can't you just admit that I called it correctly on your little ploy to sucker some poor conservative into your trap. Let's be big boys about this. I like your style but I saw right through it. And to ask a quasi serious question, if you have a question about the book why don't you read it? |
SO Ref
Citizen
Username: So_refugee
Post Number: 1452
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 11:21 pm: |
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I've read the book, albeit begrudgingly. The thread wasn't about a single question, but, rather to have a dialogue.
You're not as clever as you think. Sorry to disappoint you... You should try sometime to take something at face-value without pulling out your Karl Rovian Decoder Ring.
Obviously, you have nothing to add to the issue. Surprise, surprise.
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tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 4217
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 12:41 am: |
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The whole thing's a trojan horse. There are several clues. One is the type of language used. People who are serious about good government and real reform don't immediately launch into terms like "Karl Marx's income tax" or use words like "expropriation" so glibly.
The tactical clues are, a mandate that every item sold have the amount of the tax printed on it. Now why would you mandate that manufacturers and producers do this. Is every retailer, every grocer, going to have to revamp their system of price display? They blandly say that "people should know what the tax is."
I think it's just a back door way of trying to incite anger at the system, which has been one of the stated goals of the movement for a long time. Remember "lucky ducky"?
The other is that there will no longer be a separate Social Security tax. This is a transparent attempt to knock out the psychological underpinning of the system by which people who have paid for the system their entire working careers demand that it be there for them when they retire. With no contribution, the system loses that support. And do you know what? FDR was right up front about that; why can't the conservatives be?
Cute. It's right up there with substituting "intelligent design" for "creationism." It's the same old regressive agenda dressed up in shiny new clothes and labelled "fair." Good government and sound tax policy have nothing to do with it -- if they did, they wouldn't have to pretend. |
Duncan
Supporter
Username: Duncanrogers
Post Number: 5596
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 8:45 am: |
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Wendy...I try to hide my "Oxfordian" beliefs here in the west. So many get angry. [\sarcasm] [sarcasm] (c)
Thankee is a variant spelling on the famous Sbenois Little Brown Book of Grammar and is listed in many Scrabble (c) word lists and the NY Times crossward puzzle (c) word list.
The earliest coinage of the word used on MOL, based solely on a search of the word in the 2003 attic comes from....Aquaman
I think an independent investigation is warrented. |
MBJ
Citizen
Username: Mbj
Post Number: 89
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 9:41 am: |
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A "witty" Nascar comment?
You see that childish nonsense on yahoo message boards. I thought we were above that.
I guess not. |
aquaman
Supporter
Username: Aquaman
Post Number: 674
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 11:38 am: |
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Duncan,
S has been cribbing my A material for years.
Fine sleuth work my boy.
Thankey. |
Duncan
Supporter
Username: Duncanrogers
Post Number: 5605
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 12:33 pm: |
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yahoo has message boards?
Thanks for the heads up MBJ. I will look for your work there.  |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 534
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 2:05 pm: |
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SO,
I have nothing to add on this subject because it's a ridiculous subject. The tax system will never change monumentally in one fell swoop. Can't we agree on that? Like I said earlier, I don't live in fantasy land, so why should I take the time to research this subject. I'd rather concentrate on issues that can be changed and are before Congress, not on books that are written to make someone some money during the holiday season. Besides, I knew you were probably sitting there with about 5 or 6 articles just ready at your disposal to slam the first poster who said they liked the idea the book purported. |
malone
Citizen
Username: Malone
Post Number: 297
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 5:01 pm: |
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I'd rather congress just slow down the rate of spending growth, which is significantly outpacing inflation.
Oh, and by the way, how is NJ going to close that big budget gap, eh? |
sbenois
Supporter
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 14427
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 7:32 pm: |
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Yeah great sleuth work Duncan.
http://www.southorangevillage.com/cgi-bin/discus.cgi?pg=next&topic=129&page=7044 |
SO Ref
Citizen
Username: So_refugee
Post Number: 1457
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 7:57 pm: |
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It must suck to be so cynical.
You might notice that the "article" I posted was in support of the plan.
While I do not agree with every point, I do agree that the usage of witholding taxes from paychecks - instead of allowing tax payers to invest their money throughout the year and pay their tax in one lump sum - is regressive. The fact that people celebrate "getting money" back when they file their return is disheartening because it was their money in the first place and they have missed the opportunity to invest that money at an earlier time. However, I would assume that without witholding, the government also loses the ability to gain revenue through interest as well.
Anyway, just thinking out loud...
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tom connelly
Citizen
Username: Brightontom
Post Number: 30
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 8:05 pm: |
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Malone,
NJ will close the budget gap on the backs of the middle and working class of North Jersey, SOP.
Corzine's Property Tax Reform Policy Co-Chairs:
1)NJ Exec Director Black Ministers Council.
2)NJ State President AARP.
3)Former Mayor of Plainsboro.
Ouch. |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 538
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 8:21 pm: |
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SO,
Like I told you earlier I like your style. Listen, I hear Boortz from time to time down here in between Flea Market sales and Dukes of Hazzard's TV Land Marathons. Boortz is a master at what he does - which is promote Boortz. I enjoy his show because it's quite funny and he has a unique personality. Now, before I get slammed on liking him, remember, these radio and TV personalities are just like professional wrestlers. It's entertainment and brings in the bucks. For us political junkies, he offers an entertaining view that you can't take to seriously. As for the book, Boortz is laughing to the bank. |
SO Ref
Citizen
Username: So_refugee
Post Number: 1461
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 8:55 pm: |
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Dude, you can like whomever you wish. I've met Boortz on several occasions and he is a nice, personable guy. Do I agree with him politically? No. I don't agree with Strawberry, but I think he's nice irl. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 5067
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 10:27 pm: |
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SO Ref -- excellent thinking on withholding. That you view people's money as 'their money' and the government making interest off of it is dead on, but it might make you some enemies and beget a couple labels thrown in your direction.
Thinking people know you're right. |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 2235
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 4:38 pm: |
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Um, from whom does the government earn interest on our money? |
sbenois
Supporter
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 14430
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 11:42 pm: |
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Go ahead. I'm waiting.
(Make sure the next one has the a date in the registered section that isn't earlier than 8/01) |
aquaman
Supporter
Username: Aquaman
Post Number: 676
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 8:05 am: |
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Dearest Sbenois,
How the •••• did you do that?
Thankey. |
sbenois
Supporter
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 14436
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 10:49 pm: |
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It was so ******* easy! |
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