| Author | Message | ||
     Haight-Strawbury Supporter Username: Strawberry Post Number: 6661 Registered: 10-2001  |
interesting. Strangest audio recording since Bin Laden begged Americans to vote for Kerry. | ||
| Garcia Citizen Username: Photojournalist Post Number: 20 Registered: 3-2005 |
remind me again why this guy is still alive and making threats??? | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 3961 Registered: 12-2001  |
Because he has a lot of support in parts of the Islamic world and is thus able to stay hidden despite the enormous price on his head. You could point to specific military operations that we could have done differently such as Tora Bora, but the real story is the support he enjoys. | ||
| Haight-Strawbury Supporter Username: Strawberry Post Number: 6662 Registered: 10-2001 |
If the recording is really him. If the recording was made within the last year. Alot of if ands and buts until we have a better idea what this message means. My guess, he's alive, alone and without much hope. | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 372 Registered: 10-2005 |
Still in Tora Bora, huh? Nothing a few tactical nukes couldn't handle....  | ||
| Garcia Citizen Username: Photojournalist Post Number: 21 Registered: 3-2005 |
well, it's good to know that after bush's head-on-a-platter, dead-or-alive rhetoric in the wake of sept. 11 the fact that he's still around has nothing to do with bush's incompetence and bait-and-switch to go after saddam. whew. good to have friends, i guess. | ||
| Haight-Strawbury Supporter Username: Strawberry Post Number: 6663 Registered: 10-2001 |
I see, so Bush is the enemy, not bin Laden. Do all the libs grow up without common sense, or is it just an mol thing? Ironic you bring up bait and switch since the tape includes a plea to take over Iraq's reconstruction. Seems AL Qaeda wants Iraq more than the American libs. | ||
| Garcia Citizen Username: Photojournalist Post Number: 22 Registered: 3-2005 |
bush swore he'd kill bin laden, which is a good thing, right. i hope he is alone and hopeless, but that's not good enough if he's still making threats and headlines. is there any good reason to keep him alive? either he's too wily for us, or we've given up, and i find both answers unacceptable. scrotus lo knows knows...where were the nukes here??? | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 4229 Registered: 5-2001 |
No, bin Laden's the enemy -- Bush is just an incompetent who hasn't been able to serve our interests by catching him. On thing about bin Laden though: when he says something -- no matter how hateful and appalling it may be -- at least you know really he means it. Wouldn't it be nice if we felt the same way about Bush (minus the hateful and appalling part, of course)? | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 374 Registered: 10-2005 |
Garcia- And how many times was Clinton offered Laden's head on a platter? My, my how selective your memory is. Call me Mr. skipping record when I ask-will the left ever stop whining and offer solutions? | ||
| Duncan Supporter Username: Duncanrogers Post Number: 5635 Registered: 12-2001  |
Straw...what is "bate and switch"? flipping between Spice channnel and Playboy Channel? And inferring that because we are DISGUSTED that Bin Laden is still alive makes Bush "the enemy" just proves you need to go back to the kiddie pool. If you make "dead or alive" ..."head on a plate" promises, you better make good or your gonna look as foolish as....well you. | ||
| Garcia Citizen Username: Photojournalist Post Number: 23 Registered: 3-2005 |
here's a solution: kill bin laden. use nukes. i though bush is twice the man clinton is, so why can't the cowboy get him??? | ||
| Smarty Jones Citizen Username: Birdstone Post Number: 172 Registered: 10-2005 |
First of all, I disagree entirely that he has lots of Support in that part of the world, quite the contrary. He enjoys very little support, both officially and unofficially. Afghanistan was the final government that would have him (Sudan even kicked him out...thats big), and not only do most middle-east countries disagree with al-qeda's tactics, they also don't want the risk of having their govt toppled by the US. Don't mistake support for the Palistinian causes as support for al-qeda. Go on www.aljazeera.com....you will see TONS of anti-american sentiment....you will also see tons of anti Bin-Laden sentiment. The reason he is able to hide and continue to live is very simple, and that is that there are still extremely dangerous, hard to reach parts of the world that allow people to go and hide for looooooooooong periods of time. Remember the dude from Georgia who hid in the Mountains for years before he was found? THAT WAS IN GEORGIA. Now I know most north-easterners don't distinguish between Georgia and Pakistan, but I think my point is clear. | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 4231 Registered: 5-2001 |
There's no evidence that Clinton was offered bin laden. The various distortions of this -- which first appeared on NewsMax so you know what the political motive was for publishing it -- are explained here: http://mediamatters.org/items/200407230005. The first link on that page is broken, it should be http://www.9-11commission.gov/staff_statements/staff_statement_5.pdf.
You could believe NewsMax and Sean Hannity if you want to, and you probably do want to; but I'll take the 9/11 Commission since Clinton-bashing isn't their bread-and-butter. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 3962 Registered: 12-2001 |
Smarty, Well, perhaps NPR was lying, but it seems that Al Qaeda enjoys some support in the mountainous regions of Pakistan and Afghanistan. And as for the official support of the popularly (not) elected governments of our Islamic allies - well, that and a second mortgage will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 10334 Registered: 5-2001 |
A few comments in no particular order. Smarty, I wouldn't visit that website to often if you want to avoid, at best, having you phone tapped and your mail read and at worst getting an all expense paid trip to sunny Cuba.  Scrotis, inserting a couple of Brigades of the 10th Mountain along the border behind Tora Bora would have greatly increased our chance of killing or capturing Bin Laden. Straw the little dinner party last weekend shows that Al Qaeda is still organized and a threat. | ||
| Smarty Jones Citizen Username: Birdstone Post Number: 177 Registered: 10-2005 |
Bob, I'll admit that when I log-on, a bead of sweat developes on my brow. I'm always interested in seeing how differently news is spun by Al-Jazeera...it's fascinating. If you have the stomach to endure the anti-american hubris, you will easily see how much Bin Laden is considered an enemy to those people as well. My thoughts on them enjoying support in Paki/Afghan border, is that these areas are completely out of touch with the world (the village we bombed had only 6 houses) and are in support of WAR, and Warlords, no matter who you are. My greatest fear is that with the latest "world is an American's oyster" approach that Colleges and High-Schools take, that my daughter will be taken to this village on a school-class trip, because just because it's third world, doesn't mean it's actually dangerous! | ||
| jeffl Supporter Username: Jeffl Post Number: 1528 Registered: 8-2001 |
Doesn't a part of you want to say, "Yes, we'll pull out our troops in exchange for a promise that you will not attack us?" Can you imagine the glee if we felt that bin Laden had no interest in terrorism in the US? I know, I know. You can't negotiate with terrorists but I can't help enjoying the fantasy of pre-9/11 security issues instead of constant worry of suitcase nuclear bombs and sarin gas. | ||
| themp Supporter Username: Themp Post Number: 2469 Registered: 12-2001  |
I think he's dead. He's buried somewhere, and only like three guys know he's dead. | ||
| Guy Supporter Username: Vandalay Post Number: 1441 Registered: 8-2004  |
When someone offers you a truce they are usually getting their butt kicked. | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 378 Registered: 10-2005 |
I just read some newpieces on this....so now bin Laden is all about Iraq-what a joke. So his earlier gripes no longer hold no bearing? And what a change in rhetoric! Now he seeking a truce with the US and all we need to do is pull out of Iraq? Whatever happen to converting the US to Islam and his other crazed spiels? He may not be defeated, but he sure sounds like he he realizes he is getting his ••• kicked! | ||
| Joe Citizen Username: Gonets Post Number: 1134 Registered: 2-2004 |
Or maybe he's turning over a new leaf. Geez you guys are so cynical. | ||
| Garcia Citizen Username: Photojournalist Post Number: 24 Registered: 3-2005 |
who cares what he says. that's not the point at all. why is he still sucking air to be able to say anything?? why hasn't bush annihilated him by now, like was promised?? | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 381 Registered: 10-2005 |
No, Bush promised to get him "dead or alive..." I am sorry if he is not meeting your timeframe... -SLK | ||
| Garcia Citizen Username: Photojournalist Post Number: 25 Registered: 3-2005 |
i'm sorry you need to make excuses for him. | ||
| jeffl Supporter Username: Jeffl Post Number: 1529 Registered: 8-2001 |
Weak or strong, all it takes is one terrorist to kill 1,000s if not 10s of 1,000s. | ||
| Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 1373 Registered: 3-2004 |
Come on, Garcia. You know well that there is no excuse for Bush. | ||
| Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 1377 Registered: 3-2004 |
According to the newswires the CIA have apparently determined that it is BL who is speaking, and when you read the transcript, one key threat stands out: "As for the delay in carrying out similar operations in America (to the ones in London and Madrid, apparently), this was not due to the failure to breach your security measures. Operations are in preparation and you will see them on your own ground once the preparations are finished, God willing." Let's hope that this threat never materializes especially with our porous borders, lack of control of chemical plants, seaports, and railways, given that intelligence sources tell us that Al Qaeda planning and preparations for terrorist acts often take years and they act in their own good time. | ||
| Foj Citizen Username: Foger Post Number: 881 Registered: 9-2004 |
SLK- Please, cite individual occurance/s of CLinton being offered OBLs head. So I can debunk them, one by one. Thank you. | ||
| Foj Citizen Username: Foger Post Number: 887 Registered: 9-2004 |
Doesnt OBL quote the Koran? ANd uses a flowery style of speaking. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/dotmil/arkin020199.htm | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5075 Registered: 8-2003 |
Start with this one, Foj. By Barton Gellman Washington Post Staff Writer Wednesday, October 3, 2001; Page A01 The government of Sudan, employing a back channel direct from its president to the Central Intelligence Agency, offered in the early spring of 1996 to arrest Osama bin Laden and place him in Saudi custody, according to officials and former officials in all three countries. The Clinton administration struggled to find a way to accept the offer in secret contacts that stretched from a meeting at a Rosslyn hotel on March 3, 1996, to a fax that closed the door on the effort 10 weeks later. Unable to persuade the Saudis to accept bin Laden, and lacking a case to indict him in U.S. courts at the time, the Clinton administration finally gave up on the capture. Sudan expelled bin Laden on May 18, 1996, to Afghanistan. From there, he is thought to have planned and financed the twin embassy bombings of 1998, the near-destruction of the USS Cole a year ago and last month's devastation in New York and Washington. Bin Laden's good fortune in slipping through U.S. fingers torments some former officials with the thought that the subsequent attacks might have been averted. Though far from the central figure he is now, bin Laden had a high and rising place on the U.S. counterterrorism agenda. Internal State Department talking points at the time described him as "one of the most significant financial sponsors of Islamic extremist activities in the world today" and blamed him for planning a failed attempt to blow up the hotel used by U.S. troops in Yemen in 1992. "Had we been able to roll up bin Laden then, it would have made a significant difference," said a U.S. government official with responsibilities, then and now, in counterterrorism. "We probably never would have seen a September 11th. We would still have had networks of Sunni Islamic extremists of the sort we're dealing with here, and there would still have been terrorist attacks fomented by those folks. But there would not have been as many resources devoted to their activities, and there would not have been a single voice that so effectively articulated grievances and won support for violence." http://www.pulitzer.org/year/2002/national-reporting/works/100301a.html | ||
| Foj Citizen Username: Foger Post Number: 895 Registered: 9-2004 |
My message to you is about the war in Iraq and Afghanistan and the way to end it. I had not intended to speak to you about this issue, because, for us, this issue is already decided on: diamonds cut diamonds. Praise be to God, our conditions are always improving and becoming better, while your conditions are to the contrary of this. However, what prompted me to speak are the repeated fallacies of your President Bush in his comment on the outcome of the US opinion polls, which indicated that the overwhelming majority of you want the withdrawal of the forces from Iraq, but he objected to this desire and said that the withdrawal of troops would send a wrong message to the enemy. Bush said: It is better to fight them on their ground than they fighting us on our ground. In my response to these fallacies, I say: The war in Iraq is raging, and the operations in Afghanistan are on the rise in our favour, praise be to God. The Pentagon figures indicate the rise in the number of your dead and wounded, let alone the huge material losses, and let alone the collapse of the morale of the soldiers there and the increase in the suicide cases among them. So, just imagine the state of psychological breakdown that afflicts the soldier while collecting the remnants of his comrades' dead bodies after they hit mines, which torn them. Following such situation, the soldier becomes between two fires. If he refuses to go out of his military barracks for patrols, he will face the penalties of the Vietnam butcher, and if he goes out, he will face the danger of mines. So, he is between two bitter situations, something which puts him under psychological pressure - fear, humiliation, and coercion. Moreover, his people are careless about him. So, he has no choice but to commit suicide. What you hear about him and his suicide is a strong message to you, which he wrote with his blood and soul while pain and bitterness eat him up so that you would save what you can save from this hell. However, the solution is in your hand if you care about them. The news of our brother mujahideen, however, is different from what is published by the Pentagon. This news indicates that what is carried by the news media does not exceed what is actually taking place on the ground. What increases doubts on the information of the White House's administration is its targeting of the news media, which carry some facts about the real situation. Documents have recently showed that the butcher of freedom in the world [US President Bush] had planned to bomb the head office of al-Jazeera Space Channel in the state of Qatar after he bombed its offices in Kabul and Baghdad, although despite its defects, it is [Al-Jazeera] one of your creations. Jihad is continuing, praise be to God, despite all the repressive measures the US army and its agents take to the point where there is no significant difference between these crimes and those of Saddam. These crimes include the raping of women and taking them hostage instead of their husbands. There is no power but in God. The torturing of men has reached the point of using chemical acids and electric drills in their joints. If they become desperate with them, they put the drill on their heads until death. If you like, read the humanitarian reports on the atrocities and crimes in the prisons of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. I say that despite all the barbaric methods, they have failed to ease resistance, and the number of mujahideen, praise be to God, is increasing. In fact, reports indicate that the defeat and devastating failure of the ill-omened plan of the four - Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Wolfowitz - and the announcement of this defeat and working it out, is only a matter of time, which is to some extent linked to the awareness of the American people of the magnitude of this tragedy. The wise ones know that Bush has no plan to achieve his alleged victory in Iraq. If you compare the small number of the dead when Bush made that false and stupid show-like announcement from an aircraft carrier on the end of the major operations, to many times as much as this number of the killed and injured, who fell in the minor operations, you will know the truth in what I am saying, and that Bush and his administration do not have neither the desire nor the will to withdraw from Iraq for their own dubious reasons. To go back to where I started, I say that the results of the poll satisfy sane people and that Bush's objection to them is false. Reality testifies that the war against America and its allies has not remained confined to Iraq, as he claims. In fact, Iraq has become a point of attraction and recruitment of qualified resources. On the other hand, the mujahideen, praise be to God, have managed to breach all the security measures adopted by the unjust nations of the coalition time and again. The evidence of this is the bombings you have seen in the capitals of the most important European countries of this aggressive coalition. As for the delay in carrying out similar operations in America, this was not due to failure to breach your security measures. Operations are under preparation, and you will see them on your own ground once they are finished, God willing. Based on the above, we see that Bush's argument is false. However, the argument that he avoided, which is the substance of the results of opinion polls on withdrawing the troops, is that it is better not to fight the Muslims on their land and for them not to fight us on our land. We do not object to a long-term truce with you on the basis of fair conditions that we respect. We are a nation, for which God has disallowed treachery and lying. In this truce, both parties will enjoy security and stability and we will build Iraq and Afghanistan, which were destroyed by the war. There is no defect in this solution other than preventing the flow of hundreds of billions to the influential people and war merchants in America, who supported Bush's election campaign with billions of dollars. Hence, we can understand the insistence of Bush and his gang to continue the war. If you have a genuine will to achieve security and peace, we have already answered you. If Bush declines but to continue lying and practicing injustice [against us], it is useful for you to read the book of "The Rogue State", the introduction of which reads: If I were a president, I would halt the operations against the United States. First, I will extend my apologies to the widows, orphans, and the persons who were tortured. Afterwards, I will announce that the US interference in the world's countries has ended for ever. Finally, I would like to tell you that the war is for you or for us to win. If we win it, it means your defeat and disgrace forever as the wind blows in this direction with God's help. If you win it, you should read the history. We are a nation that does not tolerate injustice and seek revenge forever. Days and nights will not go by until we take revenge as we did on 11 September, God willing, and until your minds are exhausted and your lives become miserable and things turn [for the worse], which you detest. As for us, we do not have anything to lose. The swimmer in the sea does not fear rain. You have occupied our land, defiled our honour, violated our dignity, shed our blood, ransacked our money, demolished our houses, rendered us homeless, and tampered with our security. We will treat you in the same way. You tried to deny us the decent life, but you cannot deny us a decent death. Refraining from performing jihad, which is sanctioned by our religion, is an appalling sin. The best way of death for us is under the shadows of swords. Do not be deluded by your power and modern weapons. Although they win some battles, they lose the war. Patience and steadfastness are better than them. What is important is the outcome. We have been tolerant for 10 years in fighting the Soviet Union with our few weapons and we managed to drain their economy. They became history, with God's help. You should learn lessons from that. We will remain patient in fighting you, God willing, until the one whose time has come dies first. We will not escape the fight as long as we hold our weapons in our hands. I swear not to die but a free man even if I taste the bitterness of death. I fear to be humiliated or betrayed. Peace be upon those who follow guidance. #### from the BBC. | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 386 Registered: 10-2005 |
Foj- See CJC's post. Thanks. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 10345 Registered: 5-2001 |
We missed an opportunity with Bin Laden and the Sudan. However, back then we were still a nation of laws, not men. I really don't have an answer, other than to say I don't have a problem with someone like Bin Laden having an "accident" or getting "killed while attempting to escape on the way to the airport". | ||
| Smarty Jones Citizen Username: Birdstone Post Number: 182 Registered: 10-2005 |
foj thanks for positing the speech. Initially, I thought I was reading a recent speech from John Kerry or Al Gore....than I re-read it, and realized it was Bin-Laden's weekly radio fire-side chat. It was amazing to see that his policies are firmly democratic, and if he were US President (he fantasized about this midway) he would not be a splinter 3rd party, but rather it's clear he'd be a democrat. (hey, republicans have their wack-job members in their party too, so this is not a knock on the democratic party). Wouldn't it be great if after George Dubbya's Saturday radio address, or after state of the Union we would get an immediate response from Bin Laden...."And now, with a response to this address, is Bin Laden coming to you directly from his cave in Pakistan...." The man definitely took his pot-shots at Dubya, highlighted by his tooling on the Aircraft Carrier stunt declaring VICTORY. Upon Further analysis: "As for us, we do not have anything to lose. The swimmer in the sea does not fear rain. You have occupied our land, defiled our honour, violated our dignity, shed our blood, ransacked our money, demolished our houses, rendered us homeless, and tampered with our security." So....is he basically acknowledging that they are up sh*ts creek? Sounds like he's vindicating the US strategy. Reading further, Bin Laden thinks that Al-qaeda is responsible for the fall of the USSR.....awesome! (Reminiscent of Al Gore claiming ownership for the creation of the internet!) | ||
| Garcia Citizen Username: Photojournalist Post Number: 26 Registered: 3-2005 |
the bush administration wrote and produced the "speech". you figure out why... | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5078 Registered: 8-2003 |
I'm long on tin foil. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 744 Registered: 10-2004  |
cjc - the US had no diplomatic ties to Sudan. The case was for Bin Laden to go to Saudi Arabia but the Saudis would not accept him. The Clinton administration did not refuse to take him as they were never offered him nor did they think that legally they could do anything with him at that point. He was thought of to be only a financier at the time. They tried but could not get the Saudis to agree to take him. Blame the Saudis for that one. The Clinton administration paid great attention to terrorism, in fact more so then any administration in our history and they allocated more resources also. They caught the people responsible for the 1993 bombing of the WTC. They stopped numerous terror acts before they happened like the Millenium bombing. They obviously could not stop them all and in 20/20 hindsight they should have done more with OBL but then again even after 911 Bush said Q But don't you believe that the threat that bin Laden posed won't truly be eliminated until he is found either dead or alive? THE PRESIDENT: Well, as I say, we haven't heard much from him. And I wouldn't necessarily say he's at the center of any command structure. And, again, I don't know where he is. I -- I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him. I know he is on the run. I was concerned about him, when he had taken over a country. I was concerned about the fact that he was basically running Afghanistan and calling the shots for the Taliban. But once we set out the policy and started executing the plan, he became -- we shoved him out more and more on the margins. He has no place to train his al Qaeda killers anymore. And if we -- excuse me for a minute -- and if we find a training camp, we'll take care of it. Either we will or our friends will. That's one of the things -- part of the new phase that's becoming apparent to the American people is that we're working closely with other governments to deny sanctuary, or training, or a place to hide, or a place to raise money. And we've got more work to do. See, that's the thing the American people have got to understand, that we've only been at this six months. This is going to be a long struggle. I keep saying that; I don't know whether you all believe me or not. But time will show you that it's going to take a long time to achieve this objective. And I can assure you, I am not going to blink. And I'm not going to get tired. Because I know what is at stake. And history has called us to action, and I am going to seize this moment for the good of the world, for peace in the world and for freedom. full context here official US diplomacy statement here | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 745 Registered: 10-2004 |
great Smarty - repeat the republican talking points on attacking Dems while the real villain is still loose 4+ years after 911. I guess if you cant kill the one responsible you might as well change the subject. | ||
| Smarty Jones Citizen Username: Birdstone Post Number: 185 Registered: 10-2005 |
Not only was I not reciting 'talking points', I also didn't attack democrats...in fact, the face of the Democratic party, Hillary, is as much of a War Hawk as Rumsfield and Wolfowitz (see her Tuesday quotes about options with Iran); but I don't suppose you pay much attention to current events, as you are still citing 2 year, and 10 year old news conferences and events. My post was directed at Kerry/Gore, who most self respecting Democrats dare not associate with at all. Kerry couldn't beat Bush when Bush was at his all-time low in credibility/approval. He's always been a boob. Gore was a boob, then he wasn't a boob, now he's become a complete crazed Mad Boob....who honestly thinks he has a shot in 2008. |
