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Scrotis Lo Knows
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 406
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 20, 2006 - 4:56 pm: | 
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New York transit workers voted to reject a new three-year contract, raising fears of another crippling strike similar to that which stranded millions of commuters last month.
The contract proposal which ended the three-day walkout last month was unexpectedly rejected by just seven votes in a ballot of more than 22,000 union members.
Union leader Roger Toussaint, who had led the strike but supported the final deal, expressed shock and dismay at the result of the ballot, blaming it in part on the "downright lies" told by union members who opposed the settlement.
Toussaint said the only way forward was to start negotiations from scratch with the Metropolitan Transportation Authority.
The vote came one month to the day after Toussaint led his union into the first strike on the country's largest transport network since 1980.
The action forced the seven million commuters who ride the New York subway and bus systems every day to walk or beg a ride to work in freezing temperatures.
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Foj
Citizen
Username: Foger
Post Number: 898
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Friday, January 20, 2006 - 11:03 pm: |
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good find SLK-- surprising. |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 546
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 8:21 am: |
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I'm shocked and outraged! A union doing what a union does. I just wonder how many more decades of shake downs and illegal strikes will it take for the liberals in the northeast to realize unions are a concept of the past. |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 3971
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 8:32 am: |
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V. true Southerner. Who needs unions when we should focus our loyalties and allegiance to the state and our Dear Leader. |
sbenois
Supporter
Username: Sbenois
Post Number: 14445
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 8:45 am: |
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Southerner,
I am just curious: do you take some form of daily vitamin that forces you to turn every issue into an indictment of liberals, as if liberals have never done anything good for this country?
If so, have you considered that perhaps you're taking them in doses that are too high?
I would suggest that you give Dr. Stefano a call. He's generally very good in terms of diagnosing these types of problems. If he can get you off the stuff quickly, perhaps you might even realize that unions exist in all areas of this country.
Even the South.
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Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 547
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 9:07 am: |
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tjohn,
All I said was I'm shocked that unions do what unions do. What got you so upset? Are you surprised to go to a Yankees game and see baseball?
Sb,
I hear you. I limit my comments to those topics that are presented on this board. The last time I checked we didn't have any threads entitled "It's a beautiful day for golf" or "Lunch sure was good". I'd be more than happy to talk about the good stuff in those type of threads (but they don't exist on this board).
As I stated in my post, unions were very useful at one point in our nations history. Nowadays, not so much. I'll agree unions exist all over, even the south, but generally where unions exist, businesses struggle. Besides, my main point, is that unions in many cases, do not adhere to the law. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it against New York State Law for the MTA to strike? If so, then they knowingly broke the law and I can't fall on the side of law breakers. If unions stuck by their agreements and the law then I'd have no problem with them. As your and tjohn's posts proves, the cycle of union corruption will continue in your region for a couple more generations as even the smart folks like you two are blinded by the idea of years past. As your unions push more and more jobs away the rest of the country will be glad to take them. In the meantime, I'll watch as this union once again illegally strikes and causes chaos up there. |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 1391
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 11:45 am: |
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Gosh,
I haven't had lunch yet today, but breakfast sure was good.
An invigorating run after a late sleep, sun's out, and then a relaxed breakfast and two cups of home-brewed espresso.
Gosh, breakfast sure was good. |
Foj
Citizen
Username: Foger
Post Number: 905
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 12:14 pm: |
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I think SLK post brings up an interesting development.
IIRC the last pre-strike offer from management, was bettered in the settlement. Since the Union got management to offer more after the strike, I have to wonder-- WTF is the union membership thinking-- the Strike got a better deal from management-- the Union won-- at least something.
On the surface it seems obsurd. Maybe theres more to it than I know. |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 3973
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 8:47 am: |
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Southerner,
I don't agree with your you where you write, "As I stated in my post, unions were very useful at one point in our nations history. Nowadays, not so much. I'll agree unions exist all over, even the south, but generally where unions exist, businesses struggle."
I think businesses struggle when the economic high tide moves on. In the 50's and 60's the Pittsburgh area was very prosperous with the best per capita distribution of wealth in the nation. In the 70's, the steel economy crumbled under the pressure of reduced demand and foreign competition.
The only thing that struck me at the time was the both management and the unions seemed oblivious to the changing economic situation until it was too late. |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 553
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 9:51 am: |
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I'll buy that argument tjohn. But don't you also agree that the perception of strong armed union tactics keep jobs away from certain areas. If all unions acted in good faith then then I wouldn't have my position. I've just seen to many instances of unions taking advantage of the members. And heaven forbid someone doesn't want to join the union. |
notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 2993
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 10:29 am: |
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It's a matter of conduct. The tendency for big business to take advantage of workers is amply demonstrated, so the need for unions is clear. But the ability of unions to make unreasonable demands of industry and of their own members is also clear; it's a human organization, and humans can be unreasonable. |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 555
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 3:00 pm: |
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Notey,
I understand where you're coming from. The big difference I see is in choices. If someone feels they have been mistreated or taken advantage of by their employer they have the choice to leave. But, once the union comes in, the employees must comply with the union or feel the full wrath of the union. You don't have any choices in that position. Unions had their day and have their place in a small segment of our economy but the perception is what is killing them. This MTA situation is yet another example of why most employees in our country run from unions whenever possible. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12006
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 9:28 am: |
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Unions exist because people with unskilled and semi-skilled jobs have less bargaining power. This is because they are more easily replaced than skilled workers.
The fact that unions sometimes abuse their power isn't a convincing argument for removing all their power (by disbanding them). When the president exercises more power than he is entitled to, does anyone call for an abolishment of the presidency?
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Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 751
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 9:42 am: |
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Southerner said "Besides, my main point, is that unions in many cases, do not adhere to the law. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it against New York State Law for the MTA to strike? If so, then they knowingly broke the law and I can't fall on the side of law breakers.
I'll remember that when the indictments become convictions for Libby, Delay and all the future Abramhoff, Plame and other scandals break. Then we will see how fast you spin. |
Scrotis Lo Knows
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 466
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 10:07 am: |
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Hoops-
Switching the subject I see? How original-this post is about MTA/TWU strikes...stick to the program, kid....
-SLK |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 752
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 10:55 am: |
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My post was not meant for you. Thread drift is part of the program. kid.
The union/management issues will play out. I fall on the side of the union. They decided democratically not to accept the offer from managment and will go back to the bargaining table as is their right.
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The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1394
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 11:04 am: |
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another example of why most employees in our country run from unions whenever possible.
please show your data |
Scrotis Lo Knows
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 467
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 11:15 am: |
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Hoops-
Any post is mean't for all, this is a public board, remember?
Believe, me I am not in the least bit surprised you fall on, and believe it or not I agree with most of what you said even though I am far more skeptical reagrding unions, especially the TWU.
I work with many different unions in my career and personally witnessed the good and the bad.
I think the TWU have unrealistic expectations, especially in regards to their healthcare and pension packages. Most people pay into their health benefits, time for them to join the club.
Hopefully, they can reach an agreement, but if they should [illegaly] strike then Touissant and his cronies better be ready to face jail time and the workers better face the possibility of being replaced.
But for you to drag apples (Libby, Delay, etc.) into a conversation is downright silly. Why do you think every "Republican" is going to automatically defend other Republicans that break the law? Is this what you call reflection in the pysch/social work world?
I for one think if they did something wrong, then they should be punished.
-SLK
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Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 753
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 11:46 am: |
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I think you are being deliberately obtuse and are looking for confrontation. Again, if my post is not pertinent to you particularly then there is no reason for you to pick on it. It was purely for Southerner, to see if he can avoid the hypocrisy that is sure to come at a later time and has now been documented.
I did not use the word every nor did I use the word all. I used the word Southerner. I find your argument to be inane.
I am talking to people who have not acknowledged there to be any issues in their chosen party and who defend their positions with the latest strategies from FOX news or neocon blogs, refusing to treat matters like indictments and bribery allegations, gerrymandering, voter fraud, Katrina relief efforts, the war in Iraq, corruption in the congress, oversight of the executive branch of government and other things with anything other then the republican spin.
I am sure if I were to look through all the many threads that you either started or posted upon that I would find many examples of you not sticking to the point of the original post.
From time to time I have come across posters that have the same online personality as you and eventually some of those people become pariahs and their posts get ignored. So far you have shown that you have interesting things to say and share. Dont mess it up by becoming insulting and condescending. |
Scrotis Lo Knows
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 470
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 12:08 pm: |
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Hoops-Calm down tiger. Take my word for it, I am not trying to be obtuse. I just thought it was silly for you to bring up such a topic.
That is all...  |
argon_smythe
Citizen
Username: Argon_smythe
Post Number: 731
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 12:59 pm: |
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Hoops, by your argument, you can't side with either the union or the MTA.
The MTA management also was doing something illegal in the restructuring of the pension plans.
Or do you pick and choose which laws are OK to break? Do you drive above the speed limit? If so I can't side with you. Did Rosa Parks break the law? I guess you couldn't morally side with her.
etc etc etc. Your argument is more convenient than convincing, or logical.
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Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 754
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 1:15 pm: |
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that was not my argument argon. It was Southerners. The argument was taken directly from his post.
I have no problem with your arguments for / against. One question I do have since you bring it up is - Is it illegal to restructure the pension plans if the union agrees to it?
I can answer your other questions.
Yes. Yes. I can stand on my own. Yes. and Yes I can morally side with her.
Just remember that I did not make the original argument, Southerner did and that I pointed it out.
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Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 559
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 1:37 pm: |
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Libertarian,
Are you kidding? Show my data? I don't have any. I guess I'm completely off base and unions are still as strong in this country as they were 30 - 40 years ago.
Hoops,
If any indictments turn into convictions I will not defend the guilty. But (here is my liberal side showing), just because someone is implicated (not a legal term) or even indicted (legal term) I don't automatically assume their guilt. And I do that for both sides of the aisle. I have never made a single post claiming a liberal politician is guilty of anything other than a terrible choice in philosophies. I am really surprised that you liberals don't jump on your brethren when they start accusing government officials of breaking the law. I simply point out that guys like Bush, Libby, and Rove have never been convicted of anything, yet the liberals act as if their guilt is a known fact. When Libby either pleads guilty or is found guilty by a jury I will consider him a criminal and will not defend him.
Reingold,
I love you man, but are workers born skilled versus un-skilled? I understand the arguments about lack of options but is that management's fault? This thread is about the MTA union and the surrounding issues. It is illegal for them to strike yet they may do it a second time. In the end, not only will the union lose the battle but they will damage the reputations of all unions. For me, I will be happy to see this happen as my view of unions are obviously not good. For those of you who side with the unions, I say good luck in your continued attempts to shake down management and your own members. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12013
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 2:19 pm: |
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I don't condone illegal action. I think the union should pay for their illegal strike. The strike was very costly to many people, which is why it's illegal.
But that doesn't mean unions are obsolete or purely bad in any sense.
It's not a question of fault about who has what skills. I was speaking about unions in general, not the MTA. The employer holds most of the power. Unions tend to shift that power slightly towards the employee, but in the end, the employer still holds more power.
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Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 560
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 6:42 pm: |
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Tom,
I buy that but I don't agree with it. Obviously it is no surprise that I fall on the side of business owners. One thing that I never understand is that conservatives who are pro-business are somehow portrayed as out to hurt the unskilled worker. I believe conservatism leads to better wages and conditions for the worker while liberalism perpetuates the "us versus them" attitude between companies and employees. If the shakedown artists you call unions did not exist I believe more and more business's would be created which would give your unskilled workers more options. And as business's compete for labor the pay and benefits would increase which would be a win win. More companies leading to more jobs and better paying jobs. As is now, why would any big employer open a big office or site in the heavily unionized states. We are probably not far apart on this issue but again it comes back to our philosophical differences. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12017
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 7:54 pm: |
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Think of the term "collective bargaining." If each worker had to negotiate his own salary, the prospect of his leaving (because he doesn't get what he wants) is not very scary to an employer of the unskilled worker. That's why collective bargaining gives the workers more power, collectively.
I don't see a lot of evidence that shows that businesses can't grow or be created with unions. There are more jobs in the economy than ever before, and many of the jobs are union jobs. If unions really stunted job growth, I'd be as concerned as you are.
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Foj
Citizen
Username: Foger
Post Number: 916
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 9:08 pm: |
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Pay increases earned thru/by unions = money that gets spent. That good for Management.
In the extreme, what Southerner is trying to do is argue the case for a Feudal system.
Every Empire that has fallen, from the Dutch, Spanish, Portugese, French, to the British has turned the same corner:
Strong middle class or trades class
Strong Educational systems
World class manufaturing
TO
Trans national economic alliances- aka Globalism
Erosion of economic Soveriegnty
Outsourcing of jobs
I think the union screwed up withthis vote.
They may end up going to Arbitration. If they do the union is F**ked. In the current enviroment, Arbitration is stacked against the union.
The unions best hope at this time is mediation. |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 563
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 11:26 pm: |
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I hear you Tom. Not much to disagree on. Keep in mind, I have no problem with unions being unions. They should of course use whatever tactics are at their disposal, albeit, even though I disagree philosophically with them. My true anger on this topic lies with the weak knee'd management team that first agreed to this shake down scheme way back when. If the first union would have been broken the first time we wouldn't be in this fix. I personally hope MTA strikes and makes it ugly. This will do more for the anti-union march than anything else. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 4253
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 12:33 am: |
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Quote:and as business's compete for labor the pay and benefits would increase which would be a win win. More companies leading to more jobs and better paying jobs.
If that were the case, unions wouldn't have been necessary, as they were in the early industrial age through the postwar era. It never worked that way before, why would it work now? |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12018
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 7:16 am: |
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Southerner, I can't find anything we agree on here, and I wonder why you think we do.
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Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 780
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 10:17 am: |
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I have to laugh at people who believe that unions are full of corrupt backstabbers, but management isn't. Like every conflict, there are two sides to this story...neither one is what you'd call pure as the driven snow. And while it's fine to be "pro-business" in general, it's important to remember that being pro-business to the exclusion of all else is the kind of thinking that gave us slavery, sweatshops, and child labor.
Management has the bottom line to consider, first and foremost...as well they should. But what's best for the bottom line isn't always best for the people that work in the trenches to secure that bottom line, and that's why you need things like unions to keep business in check. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 4257
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 11:20 am: |
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There are conservatives even today that think sweatshops and child labor are just fine. |
Scrotis Lo Knows
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 486
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 11:24 am: |
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Madden 11,
No one is saying that management isn't part of the problem.
The issue is whether their disagreements warrants a strike by the TWU.
The first one was unwarranted (also illegal) so another strike would be also).
Practically every TWU member interviewed who rejected the contract stated they were primarily concerned with paying 1% of their salary towards their health benefits.
I basically pay $450/mo. so my family has 90% coverage. I know many others who are in the same boat.
a typical TWU member making 60K a year would pay $600 clams a year/$50 a month/$25 biweekly
I don't think this is too much to ask.
-SLK |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 761
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 12:11 pm: |
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I am in the same boat as you Scrotis. Interestingly unions help to drive up the salaries that non union workers, help us to receive competitive benefits and help us to work hours that are reasonable.
Too bad that you dont have a strong union Scrotis. Maybe then your medical benefits would not be making a hole in your monthly budget.
I dont see why the union should have to continue to give away benefits when the MTA is running a billlion dollar surplus. The fact that health care costs are hurting business and hurting the employees of business is the real issue. Health care costs have to be brought under control and it will take federal legislation to create a system that is not wasteful and does not give subsidies to drug companies etc. |
Scrotis Lo Knows
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 487
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 12:24 pm: |
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Thanks Hoops,
I am not in union, but a manager in Corporate America. If people want to unionzie that is their right, but at least have a legitimate beef. 1% of your annual pay towards health benefits is not.
I am not defending the MTA but it doesn't matter if they have a surplus or not, that doesn't mean that they have to continue paying for everyone's healthcare. My company had a record year the last few years but the last thing I expect for this is free health care... |
Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 782
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 12:51 pm: |
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The issue is whether their disagreements warrants a strike by the TWU.
The first one was unwarranted (also illegal) so another strike would be also).
In your opinion. But you'll pardon me for thinking that the transit workers themselves might have more information than you do to make that judgment. If you think they took (or any union takes) that decision lightly, you're crazy. It reminds me of people who think there's such a thing as "abortion on demand," like you drop by a clinic on your coffee break, take a number, and have an abortion like you'd get your oil changed.
These two issues are good examples of what I see as a dangerous nationwide trend of oversimplification. Not everything is black and white, right or wrong, legal or illegal. I'm not the first one to make this point, but what Rosa Parks did was illegal...is that the end of the discussion?
Also, SLK, I concur with Hoops...the problem is not that union members don't pay for their benefits, the problem is that the rest of us do. Instead of trying to drag them down to our level, shouldn't we be working to raise ourselves to their level?
Food for thought... |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 4258
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 1:41 pm: |
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reminds me of an old russian fable
Quote:As the story goes, a man was unhappy and prayed to God for relief. To his surprise, God spoke to him from the heavens asking, "What is wrong?" The man explained, "I had a cow, but it ran away. Now, my neighbor still has a cow, but I do not." God replied, "Tell me what you would have me do to end your discontent." The man demanded, "Make my neighbor's cow run away also!"
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Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 565
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 2:08 pm: |
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Reingold,
I'm trying to reach out. We agree on at least two points. We want businesses to operate efficiently and to be respectful through pay and benefits to their workers. We disagree on how to do this but it is no reason not to discuss. As I said earlier, my disdain in not really with the unions, as I know the union machine just wants to make money, but my real disdain are with management teams that give these unions their clout.
Madden,
Here's my premise. You equate the business with workers. I do not. Without the business there are no jobs and thus no workers. It is not the reverse. If the MTA could fire every striking employee tomorrow, they would have a line down the road for new employees within a day. |
Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 786
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 2:31 pm: |
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If the MTA could fire every striking employee tomorrow, they would have a line down the road for new employees within a day.
And you wouldn't have a problem with that? Suppose your employer did the same thing...you think you couldn't be underbid? |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12031
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 3:01 pm: |
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If the MTA could fire every striking employee tomorrow, they would have a line down the road for new employees within a day.
That's why unions are good. They make the workforce stable. Unless you think frequent job loss is a good thing, I guess.
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Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 1409
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 4:32 pm: |
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3 random but somehow connected thoughts.
To those who say: let the union strike again---there are plenty of people waiting to take their jobs.
I have spent enough time riding the NYC Transit system, both above ground and on the subways, that I wouldn't want somebody just off the street driving the bus or subway that I was riding in. Where are all those people who could just "step in" and do the job?
The unfortunate political fact about a strike is that it is valuable only as a threat. Once the threat has been enacted, it moves from being an advantage to a disadvantage.
As an aside, after more than 20 years in senior leadership positions in the corporate world, in several countries, I am tempted to trust union leaders a bit more than I trust most corporate chieftains that I have met. But that is my own opinion. |
Scrotis Lo Knows
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 525
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 8:45 pm: |
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Madden 11-
If I particpated in ILLEGAL activity TWICE I would expect some type of disciplinary action from my employer, including dismissal...
its funny how the world works that way... |
Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 788
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 12:08 pm: |
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If I particpated in ILLEGAL activity TWICE I would expect some type of disciplinary action from my employer, including dismissal...
its funny how the world works that way...
It sure is. Transit workers were fined 2 days pay for each day they were on strike. Sounds disciplinary to me.
Let me ask you this: have you ever participated in illegal activity? If so, what were the consequences? Did you have a good reason? Do you believe there is EVER a good reason to break the law?
Time to think a little deeper... |
Scrotis Lo Knows
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 532
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 7:27 pm: |
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Yes Madden there is but to hold a city hostage because you don't want to pay a pittance towards your healthcare doesn't count...such rebellion...
there, is that deep enough for you? What you find deep in a union strike I will never understand.... |
Shanabana
Citizen
Username: Shanabana
Post Number: 150
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 9:07 pm: |
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The reason unions never took root in the south to speak of was that striking workers were quite literally shot dead by scabs, on orders from management, for example at the textile mill at Honeapath SC. |
Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 789
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 1:10 am: |
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Yes Madden there is but to hold a city hostage because you don't want to pay a pittance towards your healthcare doesn't count...
Oh, I see. It doesn't count. What a relief to laborers everywhere to have you deciding what's important for them and what isn't.
there, is that deep enough for you?
Not by a long shot. Try putting yourself in their shoes, and tell me how cheerily you'd accept a non-specific percentage pay cut, to be jacked up any time on management's whim.
What you find deep in a union strike I will never understand....
Clearly. |
Scrotis Lo Knows
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 533
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 9:36 am: |
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Madden11-
Now you are just being argumentative for the sake of?
Obviously I struck some nerve judging by your response.
What do you do for a living, I am curious, does it involve a unionized workforce?
Clearly in your mind, whenever a union goes on strike it is ALWAYS justified, even if it negatively affects MILLIONS of people.....
What pay cut are you talking about? The last time I checked they will be receiving 3% raises for 3 years which is AVERAGE, even in corporate America. They were asking for 7% each year before reality smacked them in the face. Besides, they get overtime pay....
Someone standing in a token both making 60k a year having to pay a whopping 50 clams a month for health coverage is unfair?
If I am judging "what's important for them and what isn't" then what are you doing?
-SLK |
Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 791
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 11:34 am: |
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What do you do for a living, I am curious, does it involve a unionized workforce?
Nope.
Clearly in your mind, whenever a union goes on strike it is ALWAYS justified, even if it negatively affects MILLIONS of people.....
I don't know that it's always justified. It depends on the situation. But I do tend to side with labor, since I don't believe they take the decision to strike lightly. I think if a majority votes to do it, there's a damn good reason beyond "greed." Anyway, I thought greed was good...or is that only for upperclass suit-wearers?
What pay cut are you talking about?
I'm talking about giving in, and agreeing to pay a percentage of their benefits. Once they cave on that, management has free reign to jack that percentage up at will. They're taking a stand, and they should be commended. If I took a job that came with free benefits, and all of a sudden they decided to start charging me the $300+ per month that I pay now, I'd be pissed. I don't know if I'd have the guts to strike/quit over it, but please do tell me how happy you'd be to give up $4K per year because your bosses (in the face of a multi-million dollar surplus that YOU helped create, no less) felt it was necessary. You're telling me you'd take that one for the team with a smile on your face?
The last time I checked they will be receiving 3% raises for 3 years which is AVERAGE, even in corporate America. They were asking for 7% each year before reality smacked them in the face.
Boy, you don't know much about negotiation, do you? I guess they should have started out asking for 3%, since that's all they really wanted, huh?
Someone standing in a token both making 60k a year having to pay a whopping 50 clams a month for health coverage is unfair?
I'm starting to think you're just incapable of thinking past a soundbite or headline. It seemed that way on the abortion thread, too...you sound like you think women just LOVE that "abortion on demand." "Hey gals, I got knocked up again, let's go get abortions after our manicures today!"
First of all, transit workers do more than stand in tollbooths. If I said that your job was to sit at a desk all day, would that be accurate or fair? Or would I be wrong to make that judgment, since I have no idea what your job really entails? What would you think of someone like me shooting off their mouth like that about your job?
Transit workers take responsibility for the lives of MILLIONS of people every single day. They keep the city running. They spend all day every day in one of the world's biggest targets for terrorism. If all they do is stand around in token booths, then what's the big deal if they strike? We can't have a meaningful discussion if you insist on clinging to these straw men.
Secondly, the idea that the strike is about the "50 clams." You think people went on strike, giving up two days pay for each day of the strike, so they could save 50 bucks. Can you comprehend that there just might be more to the story than that? Is it possible for you to see the bigger picture here, to question your opinions on anything?
If I am judging "what's important for them and what isn't" then what are you doing?
I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to THEIR judgment about what's important and what isn't. If they're on strike, it must be important. |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 603
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 12:31 pm: |
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Unions deserve their current status. And management that deals with unions deserve what they get as well. Ask all the employees at Eastern how the union helped them. |
Scrotis Lo Knows
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 537
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 2:24 pm: |
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Madden11-
Still grating your nerves I see? Well, pay attention Aristotle:
SOME TWU workers do work in token booths.
Some TWU workers that work in token booths make 60k a year.
Some workers who work in token booths making 60k a year can afford $900 dollars a year/$37.50 a paycheck, ESPECIALLY with raises (11% over three years) and O/T pay, PROJECTED surplus or not.
Some workers who work in token booths making 60k will gain a gross $2400 additional income with their first 4% raise, leaving $1,500 left AFTER paying their HC costs. Then add the additional 8% raise for the next 2 years. The total raise over three years is $7,200. The 3 year total they would have to pay towards their HC costs would be...that is right, $2,700. That leaves them still close to 5k in the black (AGAIN, not including overtime, and even double OT).
This issue has been going since December 2005 (even earlier), if there is "more to the picture" then when can we expect it to go public?
REALITY CHECK: If your employer experiences a surplus IT DOES NOT MEAN you are entitled to any of it.
How would I like it if I got slapped with HC costs?-Son I did and alot others in corporate America did as well. When the notion of supplying coporate employees with HC first came around most people DID NOT pay for it, or if they did, contributed very little. But due to various circumstances, HC cost began to rise and companies could not keep up with it, so employees began to contribute, or guess what, no HC coverage...
To personalize this, I pay OVER $400 a month towards HC cost so my family and I are covered (well, 90%), not including an additional $250 a month in 401k, and I kno MANY others that do the same. Now, you do the math.
Changing subject now pay attention:
If you were REALLY paying attention to the Abortion thread, you may have noticed that I was TRYING to raise to conversation above all the typical pro-choice/pro-life rhetoric. We all have our knee-jerk moments (including you)but at the risk of sounding bombast, trying to raise the bar is near impossible on these boards.
Now, back to our regular scheduled program:
I personally work with many diffrent unionized employees (mostly construction related) on a daily basis and when I tell them how much I pay in HC costs they simply cannot believe it.
Just because you where a suit doesn't mean it is any easier, Madden.
The simple fact that you automatically "tend to side with labor" instead of keeping an open mind shows your true bias on the matter.
Wake up or grow up...wither would be an improvement...
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Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 792
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 2:31 pm: |
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I'm sorry, but Eastern got what they deserved. If you can't run a business and treat your employees equitably, you shouldn't be running a business.
Deregulation, as it often does, sent airlines into a downward spiral where they were forced to cut costs in order to stay alive. I don't know about you, but I'd prefer that airlines still have some money to spend on things like maintenace and safety inspections...or is that too much of a drag on capitalism?
Poor Frank Lorenzo, right? I mean, he was just a hard-working entrepreneur, trying to make his way in the world...why did those greedy machinists screw him over so badly?
Or, to put it another way:
Eastern Airlines was not exempt from having to contend with price wars as well as being a participant. This placed many air carriers in an vulnerable state to unwanted hostile takeovers and mergers. Eastern fighting to keep its doors open, sold majority share holdings to Frank Lorenzo, owner of Texas Airlines.
Lorenzo, filed for restructuring of Eastern Airlines under the bankruptcy laws. Lorenzo in his desire to have greater control over the airline industry brought in non union workers and created a new air fare war that many airlines could not compete against a non union airline. Eastern further offered upscale service such as its first class seats to coach prices This further eroded the airline industry, carrier after carrier had filed for bankruptcy. Lorenzo, was now placed into a position that he could pick and choose which airline he would take over. Lorenzo on a hunt, took over several airlines such People Express, Continental, New York Air, etc.
Frank Lorenzo was not satisfied. Driven by profits, Lorenzo requested machinists of Eastern Airlines to take a pay cut. However, the machinist union refused to do so. This brought about a war between labor and management. The machinist union IAM (International Association of Machinist and Aerospace Workers) called for a strike. The strike brought about air passenger delay and the company began losing millions in daily revenues.
The United States Bankruptcy Court intervened after a creditor brought suit against Eastern Airlines. The court very much aware of Lorenzo's labor practice, appointed Martin Shugrue as temporary trustee over Eastern.
Eastern was unable to overcome its fiscal downfall and as a result was forced to close its door. Many had accused Lorenzo of selling off assets and transferring Eastern's aircraft to Texas Air. Other accusations included depleting Eastern's pension fund. Many felt Lorenzo was only interested in purchasing defunct air carriers in order to strip the carriers of its assets. This was a major blow to Lorenzo's credibility in the business community.
Lorenzo was trying to "corner the market" and run the whole industry into the ground. The union put a stop to that, sacrificing their jobs in the process...and you're faulting them?
And as for the current "status" of unions...I seem to recall one of them putting a sizable dent in the city's holiday revenues. I'm not sure they're as lifeless as you wish they were...
Source: http://avstop.com/History/HistoryOfAirlines/Eastern.htm |
Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 793
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 2:58 pm: |
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Still grating your nerves I see? Well, pay attention Aristotle:
You think the fact that I responded to your posts means you're grating my nerves? Well, I guess that makes as much sense as anything else you've said. I mean, Aristotle? What are you even talking about?
SOME TWU workers do work in token booths.
And many more do not. Many work in open air trainyards through blazing hot and freezing cold temperatures into their 60s, to operate and maintain the trains that move the city. The fact that you're clinging to the "token booth" generalization shows that you neither understand nor appreciate the job that these people do...until they stop doing it, at which point you commence bitching at top volume. They're either totally worthless, or too valuable to be allowed to strike...you can't have it both ways.
Some workers who work in token booths making 60k a year can afford $900 dollars a year
Until the percentage they have to contribute starts going up. Which it will, if they give in and set a precedent. But you still fail to understand that this is not a matter of money, it's a matter of principle. Some people still have those, you know...I mean, you can't honestly believe that this whole strike is over $900 a year.
This issue has been going since December 2005 (even earlier), if there is "more to the picture" then when can we expect it to go public?
It's all public. But some people are still ignorant enough to believe that all transit workers do is sit in a booth all day. If you were capable of opening your eyes, you'd see that the big picture is right in front of you.
REALITY CHECK: If your employer experiences a surplus IT DOES NOT MEAN you are entitled to any of it.
Maybe you're not, but I sure as hell am. See, the high level (quantity and quality) of work that I do helps my company succeed. They do well partly because of the work I do, and how I do it. Maybe if you made more of a contribution to your company, you'd feel like you earned a piece of the pie as well.
How would I like it if I got slapped with HC costs?-Son I did and alot others in corporate America did as well.
And if you and your contemporaries had the guts of the TWU, maybe we'd all have free health care today. But you didn't. You knuckled under, and now you're mad that the TWU won't fall in line the way you did.
If you were REALLY paying attention to the Abortion thread, you may have noticed that I was TRYING to raise to conversation above all the typical pro-choice/pro-life rhetoric.
You know, you talk and talk and talk and talk about this. Almost every thread I see you in, it's the same old story. Poor you, you're just trying to raise the level. Why don't you admit that's a crock? Most people here don't have a problem with the tone of these boards, but you come in defensive and passive agressive on most threads that I've read. See, saying things like this:
trying to raise the bar is near impossible on these boards.
is obnoxious, and counterproductive to your alleged goal. Try and understand that.
I personally work with many diffrent unionized employees (mostly construction related) on a daily basis and when I tell them how much I pay in HC costs they simply cannot believe it.
So? It sounds like you pay a little bit more than I do. What do you want, a medal? I make the choice to pay that much because I want to work where I work, and earn what I earn, and it's a fact of life. What I DON'T do is begrudge other people the choices that I've made that make parts of their deal sweeter than parts of mine.
Just because you where a suit doesn't mean it is any easier, Madden.
I never said that, but if your job is so tough, and sitting in a token booth is such a sweet deal, why don't you join up? Or are you too good for that kind of work?
The simple fact that you automatically "tend to side with labor" instead of keeping an open mind shows your true bias on the matter.
I admit my bias...I'm biased in favor of people who know more about the situation than I do. And I'm biased against a management structure that hides surpluses, sticks riders with fare hikes ina a time of record profits, tries to pull off shady real-estate deals, and villifies the workers, the lifeblood of their organization in the media.
Wake up or grow up...wither would be an improvement...
Wow...that would have been such a stronger closing remark without the typo.
And with that, I have officially crossed over from trying to have a discussion to trying to antagonize you. Feel free to come back for more, if you like, but I can't promise I'll be able to give you ALL the attention you need. |
Scrotis Lo Knows
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 541
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 3:06 pm: |
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Madden:
I was just using the token booth employee as an example. I could of used any TWU position but what does it matter, the math would be the same Einstein....
Can't put one by you....
Repeat a thousand times and then go get a hobby:
"Wake up or grow up...either would be an improvement..."
Good boy.... |
Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 794
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 4:15 pm: |
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I was just using the token booth employee as an example. I could of used any TWU position but what does it matter, the math would be the same Einstein....
You could have, but you didn't. Because you wanted to imply that those lazy, greedy transit workers don't even have to work that hard for their extravagant salaries.
Or maybe you picked that example out of ignorance...because none of the propaganda talks about how these people risk their lives and health to keep the city running, and that their reward is 1) a salary that is barely enough to provide a decent lifestyle for a family living in this part of the world and 2) hate, scorn, and outright derision from their employers and the corporate media.
For the final time on this one: It's not about the money. Rub that concept into your scalp and let it simmer overnight. Read it again. This strike is not over $50 or $900 or whatever cockamamie calculations you want to make. You're convinced that those lowly booth dwellers are dumb enough to risk jail time and the loss of two day's pay for every day missed, all because they don't want to kick in $50. It's not logical to do that, and guess what? They know it as well as you do...and some of them didn't even go to college (perish the thought!). So maybe, just maybe, there's something besides greed going on here. Is it possible? Or are you still convinced that you're so much smarter than they are that you can use a calculator, and they can't?
And, sorry, but I have to ask...is Einstein a promotion from Aristotle?
"Wake up or grow up...either would be an improvement..."
I honestly can't tell which is less impressive...your attempts at debate, or your attempts at wit. Here's a tip for the future, Mr. Wilde...barbs tend to be a tad less searing when they're repeated verbatim. Marked improvement in the spelling, though. Kudos...and good luck in your ongoing campaign to raise the level of debate on MOL. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12145
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 4:31 pm: |
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REALITY CHECK: If your employer experiences a surplus IT DOES NOT MEAN you are entitled to any of it.
As an employee, I'm not entitled to much. But if my employer is making money hand over fist and tells me I have to take an effective pay cut in order for the company to "stay competitive" it will ring very hollow in my ear. If you want teamwork, i.e. a spirit that we are working for our mutual benefit, socking it to the employee during good times won't create it.
"This is the only thing my signature says."
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Scrotis Lo Knows
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 544
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 5:51 pm: |
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Madden 11-
I think you take my positions to the extreme. I don't think TWU workers are "lazy" or "greedy" just unrealistic.
I find it funny that you presistently try to convince me it must "be something else" that is motivating these TWU workers to threaten a strike but you can't tell me what it is.
In fact, I took the plunge and searched all corners of the TWU website to find this big secret that no one is aware of except for you (of course). And guess what I found? That's right...but I'll take you word for it anyways.
ttp://www.twulocal100.org
Lastly, I can't tell if you are young or just immature, hate being confronted with differing opinions or just can't handle not having the last word.
But, whenever you are ready to take debate to the next level just let me know....you have a chance to raise the bar with defining "must be something else."
Let's go sporto, lets see what you are made of...
-SLK
PS. Any misspellings/grammer errors were left intetnionaly just to piss you off...
Reingold-see my previous posts, the HC costs are far outweighed by the raise increase over three years.... |
Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 798
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 8:22 pm: |
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I think you take my positions to the extreme. I don't think TWU workers are "lazy" or "greedy" just unrealistic.
Potato, po-tah-to.
I find it funny that you presistently try to convince me it must "be something else" that is motivating these TWU workers to threaten a strike but you can't tell me what it is.
I'd be happy to tell you what it is. Step one was convincing you of the possibility that other reasons exist.
In fact, I took the plunge and searched all corners of the TWU website to find this big secret that no one is aware of except for you (of course).
The TWU website sucks. In this case, the "big secret" could be found tucked away in a little-known organ called the Daily News, picked up from something called the AP wire:
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/376343p-319776c.html
Quote:It was one of several picket lines Tuesday across New York, where 33,000 transit workers walked off the job amid a bitter dispute over wages and pension benefits for new hires. Transport Workers Union President Roger Toussaint talked about “a fight over dignity and respect on the job, a concept that is very alien to the MTA.”
“Transit workers are tired of being underappreciated and disrespected,” said Toussaint.
Charles Craft, who works on the tracks of the L subway line in Brooklyn, said there are grueling costs to working in the subways. “You’ve got to deal with the rats. Human feces, urine. You’ve got the third rail,” said Craft, 47, an MTA employee for 18 years. He said some bosses treat his colleagues “like animals.”
So yes, there were financial considerations. The attempt to up the retirement age while slashing pensions was hardly appreciated. The fact that the MTA was clearly trying to drive a wedge between older and younger members was another. But more than all that, it was about respect. It was about not trusting managers who lie left and right, and refused to negotiate in good faith. The union had one weapon, a weapon that is meaningless until you actually use it...so they used it.
Lastly, I can't tell if you are young or just immature, hate being confronted with differing opinions or just can't handle not having the last word.
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the one thing on that list that DOESN'T apply to you is "young." Don't feel bad, though, I'm not that young either. In the mean time, please feel free to lead the way to this proverbial "next level" that you won't stop squawking about. Does that even mean anything, or do you just like the sound of your own typing?
PS. Any misspellings/grammer errors were left intetnionaly just to piss you off...
Uh huh. |
Scrotis Lo Knows
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 546
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 9:01 pm: |
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Madden 11-
Wow, finally a slight hint of civilty in your posts, hope it wasn't too painful.
I was wondering if you were going to bring up the "Respect" thing. I didn't hink it played too much into the equation but obviously it did.
So this whole thing came down to respect? So their answer to gaining respect was to shut down an entire city and make millions of people's lives difficult because they felt disrespected?
These workers know what the job entails, especially track workers....
Don't look now but I think it backfired...
Tell me when to pull out the violins...
And if you think you raised the level of this discussion you have got to be joking....at least their financial arguments have more substance.... |
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