| Author | Message | ||
     tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3011 Registered: 3-2004 |
Just in case anyone still thinks global warming is a myth, read this, italics mine. (Why are the major media outlets not covering this conference?) Republican Former EPA Chiefs Accuse President Bush of Neglecting Global Warming By JOHN HEILPRIN Associated Press Writer (AP) 05:48:50 PM (ET), Wednesday, January 18, 2006 (WASHINGTON) Six former heads of the Environmental Protection Agency _ five Republicans and one Democrat _ accused the Bush administration Wednesday of neglecting global warming and other environmental problems. "I don't think there's a commitment in this administration," said Bill Ruckelshaus, who was EPA's first administrator when the agency opened its doors in 1970 under President Nixon and headed it again under President Reagan in the 1980s. Russell Train, who succeeded Ruckelshaus in the Nixon and Ford administrations, said slowing the growth of "greenhouse" gases isn't enough. "We need leadership, and I don't think we're getting it," he said at an EPA-sponsored symposium centered around the agency's 35th anniversary. "To sit back and just push it away and say we'll deal with it sometime down the road is dishonest to the people and self-destructive." All of the former administrators raised their hands when EPA's current chief, Stephen Johnson, asked whether they believe global warming is a real problem, and again when he asked if humans bear significant blame. Agency heads during five Republican administrations, including the current one, criticized the Bush White House for what they described as a failure of leadership. Defending his boss, Johnson said the current administration has spent $20 billion on research and technology to combat climate change after President Bush rejected mandatory controls on carbon dioxide, the chief gas blamed for trapping heat in the atmosphere like a greenhouse. Bush also kept the United States out of the Kyoto international treaty to reduce greenhouse gases globally, saying it would harm the U.S. economy, after many of the accord's terms were negotiated by the Clinton administration. "I know from the president on down, he is committed," Johnson said. "And certainly his charge to me was, and certainly our team has heard it: 'I want you to accelerate the pace of environmental protection. I want you to maintain our economic competitiveness.' And I think that's really what it's all about." His predecessors disagreed. Lee Thomas, Ruckelshaus's successor in the Reagan administration, said that "if the United States doesn't deal with those kinds of issues in a leadership role, they're not going to get dealt with. So I'm very concerned about this country and this agency." Bill Reilly, the EPA administrator under the first President Bush, echoed that assessment. "The time will come when we will address seriously the problem of climate change, and this is the agency that's best equipped to anticipate it," he said. Christie Whitman, the first of three EPA administrators in the current Bush administration, said people obviously are having "an enormous impact" on the earth's warming. "You'd need to be in a hole somewhere to think that the amount of change that we have imposed on land, and the way we've handled deforestation, farming practices, development, and what we're putting into the air, isn't exacerbating what is probably a natural trend," she said. "But this is worse, and it's getting worse." Carol Browner, who was President Clinton's EPA administrator, said the White House and the Congress should push legislation to establish a carbon trading program based on a 1990 pollution trading program that helped reduce acid rain. "If we wait for every single scientist who has a thought on the issue of climate change to agree, we will never do anything," she said. "If this agency had waited to completely understand the impacts of DDT, the impacts of lead in our gasoline, there would probably still be DDT sprayed and lead in our gasoline." Three former administrators did not attend Wednesday's ceremony: Mike Leavitt, now secretary of health and human services; Doug Costle, who was in the Carter administration, and Anne Burford, a Reagan appointee who died last year. ___ On the Net: EPA: http://www.epa.gov | ||
| Foj Citizen Username: Foger Post Number: 873 Registered: 9-2004 |
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| peteglider Citizen Username: Peteglider Post Number: 1710 Registered: 8-2002 |
oh yeah, if Christie Whitman said it, its got to be gospel... (I absolutely HATE her!) /p | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5070 Registered: 8-2003 |
There are those who say republicans and conservatives think global warming is a myth. This is not the case. As Whitman herself said, global warming is most likely part of a natural trend. The disagreement comes when some say that it's the activities of mankind that provides the tipping point, and that if we limit mankind that global warming will be significantly effected. I think Kyoto's most optimistic projection was that even if it were followed to a "T" that the impending rise in global temperature would be lowered by 1/10th of a percentage of a degree. That's the real disagreement. And pardon me if I can't take a party seriously on impending disaster when that same party ignores the crisis that entitlements in this country present. | ||
| Foj Citizen Username: Foger Post Number: 877 Registered: 9-2004 |
so cjc-- ? Human pollution has an effect-- the scale of said effect is where the debate occurs-- right? | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3012 Registered: 3-2004 |
Oh, well, if peteglider absolutely hates Christie Whitman, I guess we have to throw the whole set of observable facts away!!!! cjc: I think you and I concur it is all a matter of degree, both on entitlements and on global warming. Foj: Thanks for the illustrations!! Now, if we could just get some folks to pay attention, we'd be doing some good!!) | ||
| Foj Citizen Username: Foger Post Number: 879 Registered: 9-2004 |
Tulip-- its like Katrina-- seen from space 5 days in advance. Bush declares an emergency for the inland parishes of NOLA. Seen from space 25 years in advance . . . . I think you get the drift. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 3959 Registered: 12-2001  |
Cjc says: "And pardon me if I can't take a party seriously on impending disaster when that same party ignores the crisis that entitlements in this country present." Let me see if I can help you understand the difference in magnitude of these two issues... Assuming projections about global warming are correct, we will long for the days when some people thought entitlements was the major issue. | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 365 Registered: 10-2005 |
Global warming a myth? Thanks for clarifying my position CJC... | ||
| Meandtheboys Citizen Username: Meandtheboys Post Number: 2681 Registered: 12-2004  |
Is "myth" really the right word? My understanding is that the debate about global warming has to do with it only being a "theory," and not a proven to "fact." MYTH noun 1.A traditional story or tale that has no proven factual basis: fable, legend. 2.A body of traditional beliefs and notions accumulated about a particular subject: folklore, legend, lore, mythology, mythos, tradition. 3.Any fictitious idea accepted as part of an ideology by an uncritical group; a received idea: creation, fantasy, fiction, figment, invention. THEORY noun 1.Abstract reasoning: conjecture, speculation. 2.A belief used as the basis for action: hypothesis. 3.Something taken to be true without proof: assumption, postulate, postulation, premise, presupposition, supposition, thesis. FACT noun 1.That which is known about a specific subject or situation. data, information, intelligence, knowledge, lore. 2.Something having real, demonstrable existence: actuality, event, phenomenon, reality. 3.One of the conditions or facts attending an event and having some bearing on it: circumstance, detail, factor, particular. 4.The quality of being actual or factual: actuality, factuality, factualness, reality, truth. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 3960 Registered: 12-2001 |
Oh stop. Global warming is a fact. Levels of CO2 unprecedented in recent geologic time is a fact. That the burning of fossil fuels is the major cause of these unprecedented levels of CO2 is a fact. All that is up for argument is how Homo sapiens will deal with this issue. Will we produce less CO2? Will we build higher levees? Will we figure out how to lock up carbon throgh various means? | ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 1288 Registered: 3-2002 |
Species with narrow niches are dying, climates are changing, Kilimanjaro hikers are being killed as the ice cap melts and releases rocks that it has held tight for millennia. CO2 levels are higher than they've been for at least 650,000 years, according to the most recent ice cores. To say that Global Warming is "only at theory" and thus can be ignored is the refuge of the stupid and selfish. It is only a theory that the sun will rise tomorrow, but we would be foolish to organize our lives around the possibility that that scientific theory might be wrong. We aren't sure how dire the effects will be, but we are well on our way to finding out. This issue should transcend politics (if termites are eating your timbers, you deal with them now, rather than waiting to see if the house falls down on your children someday). But thanks to Bush and other anti-scientists, our government is fighting European attempts to regulate aircraft emissions, and states are stuck trying to pass legislation to make up for Federal deficiencies (just to mention a few examples from recent reading): 13129-1967453%2C00.html,http://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13129-19674 53,00.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/02/AR2006010201467. html Bush may be remembered as Nero, fiddling while Rome burns. | ||
| Duncan Supporter Username: Duncanrogers Post Number: 5630 Registered: 12-2001  |
"may be remembered" He was fiddling while New Orleans burned. | ||
| Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 1363 Registered: 3-2004 |
In fact, Nero never fiddled, as fiddles weren't invented by his time. He may have plucked the lyre. GWB didn't fiddle either. He surveyed the situation from 25,000 feet in the luxury of AF1. If I were, on the other hand, to use a word about what he did, I would use a homophonic for "lyre." | ||
| notehead Supporter Username: Notehead Post Number: 2989 Registered: 5-2001  |
Those who still, inexplicably, doubt the existence of anthropogenic warming might want to consider that all six of the former EPA heads who attended the meeting described in the first post consider it to be a very real and significant problem. Perhaps those individuals are more likely to be well-informed on the subject than the deniers. | ||
| susan1014 Supporter Username: Susan1014 Post Number: 1289 Registered: 3-2002 |
Yes, but we are cursed with a government that doesn't believe in letting the facts get in the way of their lyre-picking and feathering of supporter's nests. | ||
| Duncan Supporter Username: Duncanrogers Post Number: 5634 Registered: 12-2001 |
minor drift..
The Lyre being as close to a "fiddle" as was available at the time. Though the homoponic in wonderfully suitable. | ||
| mantram Citizen Username: Mantram Post Number: 214 Registered: 8-2003  |
I happen to have some definitive proof about global warming......  | ||
| Elgato Citizen Username: Elgato Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2004 |
Let's hope not but this debate may already be irrelevant: http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/article338878.ece | ||
| Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 1378 Registered: 3-2004 |
Lyre, lyre, GWB on Fire. | ||
| dougw Citizen Username: Dougw Post Number: 694 Registered: 3-2005 |
Wasn't Long Island created by glaciers that covered our area long ago? What happened to thoes glaciers? Did humans cause them to disappear? | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2251 Registered: 5-2004  |
People died of lung cancer before there were cigarettes. So the threat of lung cancer is no reason not to smoke cigarettes. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 3965 Registered: 12-2001 |
No rational person is denying that there have been many glacial and interglacial periods over the last couple of billion years. Similarly, no rational person is now questioning whether or not human activity is having a dramatic and generally unfavorable impact on the environment. As I said earlier in this thread, the question is not whether this stuff is happening, but how we propose to respond to these changes. | ||
| Meandtheboys Citizen Username: Meandtheboys Post Number: 2692 Registered: 12-2004 |
I am questioning whether it is having a "dramatic" impact, but not denying it is having some impact. And I'm confident that I'm fairly rational. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 3966 Registered: 12-2001 |
Give it time. I accept the notion that the environment has tipping points meaning that everything seems to be degrading slowly but then suddenly collapses. If something causes the Gulf Stream to slow or stop, then that would be a tipping point from which very rapid climate change would follow. In economic and politcal terms, the Soviet Union hit a tipping point around 1989. Up to that point, they seemed to be as menacing as ever, then the USSR collapsed. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3014 Registered: 3-2004 |
Meandtheboys: Do you not think the hurricane season this year was somewhat "dramatic?" Do you not know that warming waters contribute to stronger force winds as they pass over them? | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 382 Registered: 10-2005 |
Tulip- Yes, I do. No one is denying that GW doesn't exist but one crazy hurricane season doesn't automatically mean GW is the cause. Speaking of, the WSJ had an excellent editorial on the Kyoto Protocol I wish I could share... | ||
| Meandtheboys Citizen Username: Meandtheboys Post Number: 2694 Registered: 12-2004 |
What Scrotis said. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3015 Registered: 3-2004 |
Right.  | ||
| Foj Citizen Username: Foger Post Number: 880 Registered: 9-2004 |
Tulip-- its *************** Wow- thats strange. Recent study said that the Hurricanes will be more, and stronger-- for the forseeable future. USMS said we are looking at a multi decade trend. | ||
| tulip Citizen Username: Braveheart Post Number: 3016 Registered: 3-2004 |
Yup....slightly delayed reaction....?  | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 14432 Registered: 10-2001  |
BTW Tulip, In the end, Katrina was a cat 3. Dramatic? Hardly. | ||
| Montagnard Citizen Username: Montagnard Post Number: 1858 Registered: 6-2003  |
Considering that the levee system was allegedly designed for Category 3, I'd say that this just raises another set of issues in corruption and mismanagement. | ||
| Foj Citizen Username: Foger Post Number: 893 Registered: 9-2004 |
dougw, correct-- The term is terminal morain. NO one should be debating cold & Warm periods, as mentioned before the debate should be/is what to do. | ||
| Duncan Supporter Username: Duncanrogers Post Number: 5641 Registered: 12-2001 |
Sorry Sbenois...but this is from The Weather Channel
and this from the NCDC
So "strong" cat 3. Dramatic...Definately. One of the worst hurricanes on record over the open sea and when it hit land. Hurrican Andrew was a cat 5 when it hit land. The last to do so. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 14435 Registered: 10-2001 |
What makes it dramatic other than the fact that it hit a highly populated city that was under sea level and situated in a bowl? Would it have been dramatic in 1642? 2100 BC? Hurricanes did not start when Americans began driving cars. The ice age was dramatic. | ||
| Steve R Jones Citizen Username: Sjthinker Post Number: 60 Registered: 2-2005 |
hey, at least the canadiens can drill for oil now | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 384 Registered: 10-2005 |
Oh boy, here we go.... BET.com– If you thought Hurricane Katrina was a once-in-a-lifetime fluke, think again. Concerned environmentalists say that unless the United States gets real about the threat of global warming, African Americans and other people of color can expect a repeat of disasters like Katrina. “When you look at the trends and put them all together, it’s undisputable that the sea levels are rising,” says Ansje Miller, director of the Environmental Justice and Climate Change Initiative (EJCC). “Warmer seas mean more intense hurricanes…. You’re going to have intense flooding like we have never seen before. Katrina is really the hurricane of the future.” Bad News for Blacks Environmentalists blame the fierce new storms on global warming – the increase in the average temperature of the Earth's atmosphere and oceans. Scientists attribute the phenomenon to gases produced by fossil fuels like gasoline, petroleum and coal. Though critics dismiss global warming as junk science, reports from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) have continually found a discernable human influence on world temperatures. That’s bad news, especially for African Americans. Citing Katrina as a case-in-point, some environmentalists say global warming impacts minorities and the disadvantaged harder than other groups. If global warming gets worse, many African-American communities will be more vulnerable to breathing ailments, insect-carried diseases and heat-related illness and death. But asking Black folks to give up gas-guzzling SUV’s and other bling is a tough sell. “It has been ingrained in our heads that to be anything, you must have everything,” says EJCC steering committee member Nia Robinson. “Because some of us have a big car and a nice house, people aren’t seeing that racism still exists. But Katrina showed that racism is alive and well in America. Now that people have that idea, I think we’re in a really critical stage to organize, educate and mobilize people.” Pollution Worse for Us Relatively, Blacks are environmental Good Samaritans. Per capita, we emit approximately 20 percent less carbon dioxide than Whites – well below 2020 targets set by the U.S. Climate Stewardship Act. Not only do we use more energy-conserving public transportation, we spend considerably less per capita on energy-intensive material goods. Yet Blacks are exposed to worse air pollution than Whites in every major metropolitan area. Some charge that the Bush administration has made matters worse by creating new policies, like the Clear Skies Act and the Healthy Forest Initiative, that allow utilities and industries to pollute more. President Bush enraged environmentalists when he opted out of the Kyoto protocol global warming treaty, saying it would harm the U.S. economy. Critics say the result of these policies could be catastrophic. “By mid-century, we’re looking at the entire Antarctic ice shelf melting,” Miller says. “That could send warmer water throughout… which will have a freezing effect in the Northern European countries. We’re already looking at a number of low-lying areas being completely submerged by sea-level rise. It’s kind of scary.” Toward a solution, Miller says America must conform with international protections while reducing fossil fuel use. She hopes that the U.S. begins aggressively fining polluters and investing the resulting funds towards sustainable alternatives. “Katrina showed us that we don’t know how to deal with (environmental disasters),” Miller says. “We really need to make sure that we have mechanisms, escape routes and policies in place that are going to protect those who are most vulnerable.” | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 385 Registered: 10-2005 |
snore....snore...sno...oh, what was that, Tulip? Oh, once again: "No one is denying that GW doesn't exist but one crazy hurricane season doesn't automatically mean GW is the cause." | ||
| Meandtheboys Citizen Username: Meandtheboys Post Number: 2701 Registered: 12-2004 |
O.K., that's a joke right? |
