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Message |
    
maplescorp
Citizen
Username: Maplescorp
Post Number: 104
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 9:53 am: | 
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http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/25/military.studies/index.html
Rumsfeld didn't even read his own Pentagon's report about the Army being stretched too thin before dismissing it. This is what we mean when we say the Bush Administration has a deaf ear to reality and the truth.
I don't see how any thinking person can read this and come away feeling that Rumsfeld has anything other than his own reputation at interest.
Wouldn't a conscientious and responsible and mature person say, "This isn't a partisan report, and it concerns me. Let me study it in detail so we can do right by our military and our country."?
Bu conscientiousness, maturity, and responsibility are not hallmarks of this administration. And say all you want about past administrations. This is the one we have to live with today. |
notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 3005
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 11:42 am: |
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Rummy makes mention of our total potential force of 2 million people, as if the 1,864,000 members who are NOT in Iraq are all sitting around at the moment. Great argument, Rummy. I'm not sure how that explains why soldiers are being required to complete 3 or 4 tours of duty. |
The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1396
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 12:57 pm: |
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complaining isnt activism.
none of you did anything to stop this, therefore you are all as much to blame as they are.
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i gotta pay school taxes?!?! but i hate kids!!!
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themp
Supporter
Username: Themp
Post Number: 2490
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 1:06 pm: |
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"none of you did anything to stop this, therefore you are all as much to blame as they are."
Not successfully, no, but we did things.
What dio you do? Vote for Bush twice because he is a global warming skeptic? Hope you like your "small" government. |
bettyd
Citizen
Username: Badjtdso
Post Number: 43
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 1:24 pm: |
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Fox News will portray the report as the product of some left wing, Bush hating group at the Penatagon. |
The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1397
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 4:36 pm: |
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What dio you do? Vote for Bush twice because he is a global warming skeptic? Hope you like your "small" government.
i voted for him neither time and have attended rallies, signed petitions, and assisted in mailings against his policies.
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i gotta pay school taxes?!?! but i hate kids!!!
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themp
Supporter
Username: Themp
Post Number: 2495
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 4:54 pm: |
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Ok, I withdraw the comment with apologies. Most Libertarians skew to the GOP, and many are even loyal to it's hideous leadership. |
The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1398
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 7:57 pm: |
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i agree with many core republican issues but the current version of the GOP dating back over 25 years is not what true republicanism is all about. i despised Reagan and i despise GW.
i do believe in a small federal government and more power being given to the states.
anyhoo, my point was that you guys post endless threads bashing GW and i bet very few of you go any farther than bitching on this board. it seems so pointless and fruitless.
if half of you had spent election day in a state like ohio for 1 week, and helped get out the student vote, kerry(ugh) would be president.
Complaining isnt activism.
stop bitching on the internet and do something about it!
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joeltfk
Citizen
Username: Joeltfk
Post Number: 358
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 8:03 pm: |
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Lib --
Point is well-taken about doing vs. bitching, but we have every right to bitch and if the bitching is intelligent, then some people can be swayed. I've personally been swayed to change a firm stance as a result of reading posts on MOL. Also, at one point does bitching become significant for you? Bitching on MOL is one step from Bitching to a Congressperson or bitching to the media (think 9/11 Widows and Sheehan), then organizing bitchers a la big scary MoveOn.org. Don't dismiss it just because our guy didn't win.
Also, TONS of people went to both Florida and Ohio to encourage the Democratic vote. Don't belittle them by suggesting they weren't there or a few of us could have made more of a difference. |
ajc
Citizen
Username: Ajc
Post Number: 4737
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 8:27 pm: |
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"I've personally been swayed to change a firm stance as a result of reading posts on MOL."
Now that's a real story if ever I've heard one... Would you mind sharing what that was, or do we have to wait to next week to read it in the News Record?
I have tried for years to just get someone to lean a little in another direction. Being swayed to change a firm stance is really impressive!
All you Libs must really be making more of a difference then I thought... 
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joeltfk
Citizen
Username: Joeltfk
Post Number: 359
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 9:05 pm: |
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If you must know, Tom Reingold's points softened and, to large degree, repositioned my view on the Christmas music in school ban.
And no it won't be in the News-Record. Tom got enough publicity already. |
The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1399
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 9:32 pm: |
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Bitching on MOL is one step from Bitching to a Congressperson or bitching to the media (think 9/11 Widows and Sheehan), then organizing bitchers a la big scary MoveOn.org.
that is true if you make the step. i am willing to bet my life the majority here do not.
having your position on a matter swayed as a result of this board is meaningless ig you dont do anything about it. sitting in your chair and saying "hmm, my position has changed on the matter", and then going to bed doesnt mean anything if you do not act.
endlessly bitching on this board is defeatist and pointless if you dont try and to fix what you think is wrong. now before you all scream,"we are activists, we do stuff", i have been to a few of the rallies that have been posted on this board and the turn outs have been pathetic.
Don't belittle them by suggesting they weren't there or a few of us could have made more of a difference.
1. i was not belittling them. you are being a bit of a drama queen with that one.
2. the vote was close enough in ohio and penn that i bet 100 of you could have made a huge impact getting out the vote at universities.
you belittle yourself to suggest otherwise.
Complaining isnt activism.
stop bitching on the internet and do something about it!
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joeltfk
Citizen
Username: Joeltfk
Post Number: 360
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 9:44 pm: |
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Are you the Liberatarian or The Oracle, because you sure seem to know a lot about what would have been based on nothing.
And what are you doing on this message board anyway, the sole purpose of which is to talk and discuss. Stop talking to all of us, get off your fat butt and do something. |
The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1400
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 10:10 pm: |
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i do many things to attempt to enact my political agenda. i work quite alot with my political parties county organization. I have gotten over 1500 signatures for a petition against certain bush policies. my goal is 5000.
i helped to organize a local universities libertarian chapter.
i have no issue with the discuss nature of this board. its the endless "bush sucks" threads that are just vitriol and diatribe. i cant understand why if someone has such strong feelings about something like this that they dont do something about it. if they were to organize 100 people from this board who claim to hate GW so much, and put them to work, they could possibly make an impact. this doesnt seem to be happening. i can only assume that their true feelings run closer to apathy. so , again, i dont see the point to the endless bitching.
Complaining isnt activism.
stop bitching on the internet and do something about it!
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Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 790
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 1:14 am: |
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You gotta love a libertarian with the chutzpah to lecture others on their ineffectiveness. Sorry, but isn't that the pot calling the kettle impotent? |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12137
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 8:00 am: |
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A lot of us just sit here and complain. Some do more. You can't tell the difference from where you sit, so it's, uh, silly to assume you can.
Thanks, Joel. I'm a bit embarrassed by my visibility in the music debate, because in the end, I realized I was snowed, to a degree, and my view shifted after the dust settled.
But Art, I also listen and consider things and change my views. I know not many people do. And maybe some do but don't admit it publicly. I was on an online forum where the topic of the 2nd amendment came up a lot. Eventually, I came to agree with the right to keep and bear arms. (I just think the NRA is the wrong messenger.) So you see, some minds are open, at least sometimes.
"This is the only thing my signature says."
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The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1403
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 12:51 pm: |
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You gotta love a libertarian with the chutzpah to lecture others on their ineffectiveness. Sorry, but isn't that the pot calling the kettle impotent?
make sense. the effectiveness of the libertarian party at this time has nothing do with this conversation. this is about personal activism
You can't tell the difference from where you sit, so it's, uh, silly to assume you can.
i can make an assumption based upon democratic and anti bush events that are announced on this board and the poor attendance that follows.
Complaining isnt activism.
stop bitching on the internet and do something about it!
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Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12139
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 4:08 pm: |
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i can make an assumption based upon democratic and anti bush events that are announced on this board and the poor attendance that follows.
You can claim that Democrats are, in the aggregate, ineffective. But you cannot tell an individual's effort and contribution from what he/she says here on MOL. I hope I'm clear about groups and individuals.
"This is the only thing my signature says."
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Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 796
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 4:25 pm: |
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make sense. the effectiveness of the libertarian party at this time has nothing do with this conversation. this is about personal activism
Setting aside the fact that you have no knowledge of the personal activism of anyone on this board, it would seem to me that the alleged "complaining" of any one of MOL's lefties has done exactly as much for the Democrats as your blood, sweat, and tears has done for the Libertarians. I believe the Spanish have a word for it...nada.
Is it about results, or isn't it? If it is, you haven't produced any. If it isn't, how can you point the finger at anyone else without knowing the facts? |
The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1404
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 4:49 pm: |
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You can claim that Democrats are, in the aggregate, ineffective.
no, i am claiming that proclaimed democrats on this board do not attend board announced democratic functions.
as your blood, sweat, and tears has done for the Libertarians. I believe the Spanish have a word for it...nada.
again, you are wrong. my efforts have accomplished quite a bit as i previously stated. as for the libertarian party, i dont do work for them as i feel that they represent portions of the libertarian doctrine that i feel either arent important or misguided.
i have future plans to work to change that. as for now i work towards spreading true libertarian ideals. my work has helped to accomplish that.
you speak from a point of ignorance, whereas my attendance and observation at board announced democratic activities has given me an insight as to the participation in so called "important issue" gatherings by members of this board.
Complaining isnt activism.
stop bitching on the internet and do something about it!
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Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12150
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 4:58 pm: |
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no, i am claiming that proclaimed democrats on this board do not attend board announced democratic functions.
I know a few who do.
stop bitching on the internet and do something about it!
About what? Your pronoun has no antecedent, unless you're suggesting we do something about the internet.
"This is the only thing my signature says."
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The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1405
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 5:02 pm: |
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I know a few who do.
how nice for you.
About what? Your pronoun has no antecedent, unless you're suggesting we do something about the internet.
its a sig, its a generalization, and it is beneath you to attack me based on my grammar.
i used to think you wouldnt resort to such silly attacks. guess i was wrong.
Complaining isnt activism.
stop bitching on the internet and do something about it!
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Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 797
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 5:25 pm: |
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again, you are wrong. my efforts have accomplished quite a bit as i previously stated.
Uh, no. They haven't. But feel free to keep stating it. 1,500 signatures on a petition is a means, not an end. What end did that petition achieve? Or did you just want something to tack on the fridge?
i have future plans to work to change that. as for now i work towards spreading true libertarian ideals.
That's great. It'll be interesting to see how you fit it in, what with the considerable time you yourself spend bitching on the internet.
you speak from a point of ignorance,
Wow, finally...a condescending Libertarian! 
whereas my attendance and observation at board announced democratic activities has given me an insight as to the participation in so called "important issue" gatherings by members of this board.
First of all, I don't believe for a second that you've attended any great number of the gatherings announced on this board. Second of all, not every one who opposes this administration does so for the same reasons or with the same goals, so why would you expect them to attend the same events?
For you to say that people on this board do nothing but bitch based on only the slimmest of anecdotal evidence is the height of ignorance...to do so while you yourself are one of the primary bitchers with no particular record of effective activism to speak of is the height of arrogance. |
The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1407
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 5:29 pm: |
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Uh, no. They haven't. But feel free to keep stating it. 1,500 signatures on a petition is a means, not an end. What end did that petition achieve? Or did you just want something to tack on the fridge?
picking out one thing from a list of things is a lie by omission.
what with the considerable time you yourself spend bitching on the internet.
i am flattered that you have been timing me. you might want to get a new watch.
First of all, I don't believe for a second that you've attended any great number of the gatherings announced on this board.
then you would be mistaken and speaking from ignorance.
with no particular record of effective activism to speak of is the height of arrogance.
again, you speak from ignorance.
Complaining isnt activism.
stop bitching on the internet and do something about it!
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maplescorp
Citizen
Username: Maplescorp
Post Number: 105
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 6:04 pm: |
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Lib,
I haven't seen you at one meeting or event of the Maplewood South Orange Committee to Stop the War (www.somastopthewar.org), yet we've had quite a few.
Modeling after your logic and level of research, I'll go ahead and assume you're either all for the War or just spend all of your time simply bitching on the Internet.
I'm being ridiculous merely to show that your presumptuousness is dissappointing and unflattering.
If you're frustrated by how the country is being directed and represented politically, don't take it out on people who just happen to make a habit of voicing opinions, like you.
And by the way, your posts alone elevate you to the status of #1 bitcher, regardless of whatever else you do with your time |
anon
Supporter
Username: Anon
Post Number: 2544
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 6:31 pm: |
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Libertarian: I applaud your activism, but you have little factual basis for your criticism of other MOL posters. Since most use pseudonyms how can you or I or anyone know what they do or do not do in real life. Attendance at a rally announced on MOL is not the only criteria. You don't know what anyone's work schedule is. Maybe someone who doesn't go to rallies, or who wasn't at a particular rally, raises tens of thousands of dollars on the telephone for the causes or candidates in which he or she believes.
As for posters who are not completely anonymous, Paul Surovell certainly spends a great deal of time fighting for his cause. On the other side of the spectrum are Art Christensen and Ed May. They ceratinly put in time and effort. A number of posters like Lydia and Dytunck and Tom Carlson have been active in local political campaigns.
Are there posters who do nothing but complain? Sure, but "it's a free country". Isn't that what you libertarians believe? |
The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1410
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 6:34 pm: |
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I haven't seen you at one meeting or event of the Maplewood South Orange Committee to Stop the War (www.somastopthewar.org), yet we've had quite a few.
i actually meant to attend but my work schedule has not allowed it. i have attended numerous anti-war rallies.
i wasnt bitching. i was pointing out the seeming futility of what goes on here sometimes.
the visceral reaction that my opinion has brought out makes me think that i have a hit a nerve.
Complaining isnt activism.
stop bitching on the internet and do something about it!
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kenney
Citizen
Username: Kenney
Post Number: 749
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 6:41 pm: |
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all that activism and nothing to show for it...maybe you should take up stamp collection.
The only limit to our realization of tomorrow will be our doubts of today..FDR..
Liberty, when it begins to take root, is a plant of rapid growth...G.W.
Everyone wants a voice in human freedom. There's a fire burning inside of all us...L.W.
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The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1412
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 6:44 pm: |
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i have much to show for it as opposed to the way all of the lib bitching on this board has changed the political landscape.
Complaining isnt activism.
stop bitching on the internet and do something about it!
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kenney
Citizen
Username: Kenney
Post Number: 750
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 7:00 pm: |
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it's not lib bitching, but dem bitching...of all the people on this board, you should know the difference.
The only limit to our realization of tomorrow will be our doubts of today..FDR..
Liberty, when it begins to take root, is a plant of rapid growth...G.W.
Everyone wants a voice in human freedom. There's a fire burning inside of all us...L.W.
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Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12153
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 8:02 pm: |
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I know a few who do.
how nice for you.
No, it's a case of me pointing out where you are factually incorrect. This is your cue to say, "I stand corrected."
Sorry about teasing you for your grammar. I thought you'd know when I was playing with you.
"This is the only thing my signature says."
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The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1417
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 8:24 pm: |
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you are factually incorrect
saying that you know a few people who have attended these functions does not make my claim factually incorrect.
Complaining isnt activism.
stop bitching on the internet and do something about it!
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Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 799
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 8:33 pm: |
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picking out one thing from a list of things is a lie by omission.
Fair enough. But in this case, my statement applies to the rest of the list as well.
i am flattered that you have been timing me. you might want to get a new watch.
I haven't been timing you. I just know I spend a fair amount of time here, and going by post counts, you've spent almost twice as much. Sorry, but that's a lot.
then you would be mistaken and speaking from ignorance.
If you're able to provide proof of your attendance, and proof of the lack of attendance by others on this board, by all means, do so. Otherwise, well, it's your word against mine. So my ignorance is in question...but your arrogance isn't.
again, you speak from ignorance.
Wrong again. You've told us what you've done. I've judged it to be insignificant. Put a candidate in office (hell, get double digits in an election), and we can have this discussion again. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12160
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 8:34 pm: |
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You said, "none of you did anything to stop this." That is factually incorrect. Or are you still asserting that not one person did one thing?
"This is the only thing my signature says."
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The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1419
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 9:13 pm: |
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semantics. you know what i meant.
Complaining isnt activism.
stop bitching on the internet and do something about it!
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Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12165
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 9:18 pm: |
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No I didn't. Are you saying not enough of us do enough? Why not be clear?
"This is the only thing my signature says."
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The Libertarian
Citizen
Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1420
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 9:29 pm: |
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now you are being silly and purposely obtuse
Complaining isnt activism.
stop bitching on the internet and do something about it!
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notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 3014
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 11:38 am: |
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I voted for Kerry 38 times in the last election, and you say I didn't do anything?
Actually, I have on several occasions posted on MOL mail that I've received from various NJ politicians in response to the calls I have made to their offices on many issues. Most of the time I don't bother, because the letters are usually pretty bland, but my point is that I do call the people who are supposed to be representing me. I think it's very important to do that, and also to put your money where your mouth is. |
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