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GOP Man
Citizen Username: Headsup
Post Number: 271 Registered: 5-2005

| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 3:07 pm: |
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Libertarian is very astute about human nature. it is absolutely true that if we had socialized medicine, there would be no longer be any incentive to work. and there you are, with everyone back on the government teat. |
   
Tom Reingold
Supporter Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12262 Registered: 1-2003

| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 3:07 pm: |
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As I've pointed out, there are already plenty of socialist institutions in this country, and American ingenuity and ambition are doing very well. I work hard, and I watch my own career and money. Are you implying otherwise?
"mem's signature is trendier than mine."
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GOP Man
Citizen Username: Headsup
Post Number: 272 Registered: 5-2005

| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 3:09 pm: |
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and that's also why I'm against the government providing police departments. if we all had to pay for our own private security forces, the incentive to get a good job to pay for it would be huge. productivity would soar. once again, the free market provides all. |
   
The Libertarian
Citizen Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1492 Registered: 3-2004

| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 3:09 pm: |
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You could say that. Are you arguing for the dismantling of all socialist institutions, such as police and roads? you do love to take points to the level of absurdity. no one is arguing for the dismantling of the government and an anarchic society. we all agree that there should be a government and that it should be responsible for the upholding of the law and for a basic infrastructure. lets try and keep this discourse on a rational level. Complaining isnt activism. stop bitching on the internet and do something about it!
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Tom Reingold
Supporter Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12263 Registered: 1-2003

| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 3:13 pm: |
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I think I'm rational. I'm doing the best I can. I would like it if you'd listen to me occasionally rather than insulting me. But here I am, trying again, and for what? You and cjc made claims about how socialism is bad for society, and I pointed out exceptions. It is not clear that since some socialism is good that more would be bad. You enjoy the socialism provided by the police and roads, so why are you categorically opposed to other forms, which, by the way, are forms we haven't yet tried? See, I'm trying to have a reasoned argument, and I'm not telling you that you're being irrational or anything like that.
"mem's signature is trendier than mine."
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The Libertarian
Citizen Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1494 Registered: 3-2004

| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 3:19 pm: |
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I would like it if you'd listen to me occasionally rather than insulting me. i meant no insult. i have just noticed that you like to take peoples points to an extreme that was never intended. to say that because we dont want socialized medicine that we are contradicting ourselves cause we like our government to provide a basic infrastructure is absurd. if some other threaad i say that i dont like apples, are you going to say that i must hate all plant life? Complaining isnt activism. stop bitching on the internet and do something about it!
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The Libertarian
Citizen Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1495 Registered: 3-2004

| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 3:22 pm: |
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ugh, my apples-plant life example was awful. you get the point though. Complaining isnt activism. stop bitching on the internet and do something about it!
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Tom Reingold
Supporter Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12264 Registered: 1-2003

| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 3:25 pm: |
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You have also made extrapolations of my views that are not the only possible conclusions. You objected to socialized medicine BECAUSE it's socialism. That's not a convincing argument. Got another?
"mem's signature is trendier than mine."
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The Libertarian
Citizen Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1496 Registered: 3-2004

| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 3:27 pm: |
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i think that i have adequately demonstrated my objections to it.
Complaining isnt activism. stop bitching on the internet and do something about it!
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Eats Shoots & Leaves
Citizen Username: Mfpark
Post Number: 2974 Registered: 9-2001

| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 3:30 pm: |
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Tom, I think the problem is with how you are using the term "Socialism". It does not refer to all social goods provided by the state or public entities. Socialism technically refers to an economic system where the means of production (farmland, factories, financial institutions) are owned by or controlled by the state. When you call police departments socialist entities, you are perhaps inadvertently slipping into the way the term is used by demagogues on the right. There may be softer forms of socialism than what I described, where people use the term very very loosely, as in the Scandinavian countries where they tend to conflate welfare state capitalism with socialism because of historical reasons, but no one I know of considers basic social entities such as the police or army as socialist institutions in their own right. |
   
The Libertarian
Citizen Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1498 Registered: 3-2004

| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 3:32 pm: |
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i love pandas
Complaining isnt activism. stop bitching on the internet and do something about it!
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Tom Reingold
Supporter Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12265 Registered: 1-2003

| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 3:34 pm: |
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ESL, what's a less scary term for those entities?
"mem's signature is trendier than mine."
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tom
Citizen Username: Tom
Post Number: 4301 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 3:41 pm: |
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To simply say something is "socialist" is just name-calling. It doesn't enlighten at all. Does it mean we're going to become like the Soviet Union? Oh, that's very very bad. Or does it mean more like Sweden? Well there are places with no subsidized health care at all that are worse places to live than Sweden, I hear. Plus the women are hot. If you're willing to support "socialized" roads, police and fire, then it's simply a question of drawing a line. And almost by definition then it's a very fuzzy line. So resorting to ideological arguments isn't helpful, it has to be a pragmatic solution. Aren't the economics of medicine basically built around suppliers and customers? There are always going to be customers; and if the suppliers are paid well enough we won't have a scarcity of them either. There's a huge and growing worldwide market for drugs and medical equipment, and whether or not the U.S. government chips in for a portion of it directly won't change that at all. |
   
tom
Citizen Username: Tom
Post Number: 4302 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 3:49 pm: |
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Quote:When governments create and run businesses that is called "socialism." When private citizens create and run businesses that is called "free private enterprise." Someone who believes the people are better off if major businesses are publicly owned are called "socialists." OK, based on these definitions: How many of you consider yourselves "socialists"? How many of you would say that you are supporters of the "free private enterprise system"? Now let me ask you free private enterprisers this: How many of you, in driving over here today, drove a part of the way on Interstate 80? How many of you even realized at the time that you were riding on a socialist highway? Now that you know, does that bother you? Does that make you feel like a hypocrite? Were you disloyal to your ideology? Should you have walked, or searched for a privately-owned road? Many of you attend socialist schools, ride socialist buses, go to socialist libraries, swim in socialist swimming pools, and vacation in socialist state and federal parks. You may believe that some of those services can be improved. You may even want to abolish some of them. But do you want to do it just because the label, "socialist," can be applied to them? Or let's talk about "federal regulation." Are you opposed to federal regulation? Then let me ask you this. Does it bother you that, wherever you drive on an interstate highway throughout this country it will be the same width, the exit ramps will look the same, the overpasses will be the same height above the road, the signs will be similar -- as a result of which there are fewer traffic accidents and deaths? Why is that? It's a result of, horrible of horribles, "federal regulation." Throughout my experience in government, politics, public policy and law, I have never found labels -- like "liberal" and "conservative," "regulation" and "deregulation," "states rights" and "federalism" -- very useful. It has been my experience that ideology -- indeed, generalizations of any kind -- just get in the way of problem solving. ... For an ideologue of the right, once you say something is "socialism" all further consideration ceases. For an ideologue of the left, "the marketplace" is an equal conversation stopper. Tell a pragmatist that if airplanes aren't properly maintained they will fall out of the sky and kill people, and she will see why "federal regulation" is necessary. It sure makes more sense than asking states and cities to regulate the safety of the airplanes as they fly overhead. On the other hand, a pragmatist would likely conclude that it makes more sense to have a city government employee replace the light bulbs in street lights when they burn out. Not much point to a federal agency doing that. If we're going to have a uniform interstate highway system it's going to have to be built and maintained as a federal enterprise. A mish-mash of competitive, "marketplace," highways probably wouldn't make a lot of sense. The pragmatist doesn't care if you want to call that a "socialist" highway system or not. Federal standards, and federal dollars, are the most pragmatic solution to a practical problem, and that's all that matters. (The same thing goes for those socialist public schools, libraries, buses, swimming pools and parks.) On the other hand, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to have the federal government take over the grocery store business. Not if you have enough grocery stores operating in your community, and the antitrust laws are vigorously enforced. Marketplace competition will probably provide a wider choice of products and lower prices.
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The Libertarian
Citizen Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1499 Registered: 3-2004

| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 3:56 pm: |
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i find alot of the points made in the above essay to be untrue. it sates things as fact when they are not. example: Tell a pragmatist that if airplanes aren't properly maintained they will fall out of the sky and kill people, and she will see why "federal regulation" is necessary. this implies that federal regulation of airplanes is necessary and that everyone would agree. i do not. removing federal oversight would eliminate more government costs. a good thing. the industry will regulate itself. people wont use airlines that they deem to be unsafe. airlines will maintain their fleet to keep customers. this is my opinion of course. this and a few of the other main examples provided make false assumptions. Federal standards, and federal dollars, are the most pragmatic solution to a practical problem, and that's all that matters. this being the most eggregious(sp?) example Complaining isnt activism. stop bitching on the internet and do something about it!
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tom
Citizen Username: Tom
Post Number: 4303 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 3:59 pm: |
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here's the flip side. In my opinion he's an idiot and a liar, but here ya go: http://www.fff.org/freedom/0493a.asp Quote:The Interstate Highway System was the biggest public-works project in history. It outranks even the public works of the pharaohs of ancient Egypt, the Caesars of Rome, and the most powerful totalitarian dictators of the 20th century. Did it provide jobs? Yes — for those who were among the politically privileged. The beneficiaries of the governmental largess were all of the special interests who built the highways — the engineers, contractors, cement companies, and the like — and, of course, the automobile industry itself. ... And with the taxes, congestion, and pollution which it brought in its wake, the Interstate Highway System is as big a failure as socialist schemes all over the world.
Yeah, other than the automobile industry, engineers, tire manufacturers, contractors, concrete and asphalt companies, sign makers, the oil industry, the trucking industry, every industry that ships or receives goods and materials, consumers who can get those goods for less, tourists and travellers, the armed forces, the motel and fast-food industry, geologists and architects, I can hardly think of anybody who benefitted. |
   
Tom Reingold
Supporter Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12266 Registered: 1-2003

| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 3:59 pm: |
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Right, and we'll all have equal access to complete information on which airlines keep their airplanes safe, huh?
"mem's signature is trendier than mine."
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tom
Citizen Username: Tom
Post Number: 4304 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 4:02 pm: |
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Industries regulate themselves to maximize their next quarterly profit report. They've proven time and again they're willing to gamble people's lives and fortunes away for short-term gain. At what point do you want to learn that you should avoid such-and-so airline, after one of your relatives dies in a crash? Self-regulation has never worked. |
   
Tom Reingold
Supporter Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12268 Registered: 1-2003

| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 4:04 pm: |
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Maybe we should think about what life would be like without the FDIC!
"mem's signature is trendier than mine."
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Tom Reingold
Supporter Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12269 Registered: 1-2003

| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 4:05 pm: |
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Libertarian, your theorizing about what life without the FAA would be like has little to do with our experiences throughout history. No wonder your ideas are generally radical.
"mem's signature is trendier than mine."
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The Libertarian
Citizen Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1500 Registered: 3-2004

| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 4:06 pm: |
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Right, and we'll all have equal access to complete information on which airlines keep their airplanes safe, huh? its called the free press. if the people make it known that they want to know then someone will tell them. do you think an airline that maintains their fleet and has a good safety record wont let you know? or are you implying that people are inept and unable to get information for themselves? Complaining isnt activism. stop bitching on the internet and do something about it!
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The Libertarian
Citizen Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1501 Registered: 3-2004

| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 4:08 pm: |
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Maybe we should think about what life would be like without the FDIC! again, we discuss one thing and then you dramatically apply it to something that isnt part of the issue. however, i do not think the government should insure your savings. its our government not an insurance company.
Complaining isnt activism. stop bitching on the internet and do something about it!
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Tom Reingold
Supporter Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12271 Registered: 1-2003

| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 4:10 pm: |
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It's an example of a regulatory agency which I'm happy to have (and pay for). You reap its benefits, too, since you don't stay up at night wondering if your bank balance will be there tomorrow.
"mem's signature is trendier than mine."
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Tom Reingold
Supporter Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12272 Registered: 1-2003

| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 4:12 pm: |
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its called the free press. if the people make it known that they want to know then someone will tell them. So are you saying that the press gives us all the information we ask for? Wow!
 "mem's signature is trendier than mine."
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The Libertarian
Citizen Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1502 Registered: 3-2004

| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 4:15 pm: |
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Libertarian, your theorizing about what life without the FAA would be like has little to do with our experiences throughout history. No wonder your ideas are generally radical. you are incorrrect. throughout this history that you mention, free market principles have been used succesfull uncountable times. there is a fine example of it in this country right now. there is an unregulated industry that has seen businesses fail due to poor service, and companies thrive through proper practices and customer service. sperm banks. giggle if you like but they are a perfect example. throughout most of our history, businesses have not been regulated by government. some thrived, some did not. all were subject to free market principles. your citing of history is erroneous. Complaining isnt activism. stop bitching on the internet and do something about it!
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The Libertarian
Citizen Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1503 Registered: 3-2004

| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 4:17 pm: |
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So are you saying that the press gives us all the information we ask for? Wow! it only gives us what we ask for. a free market principle in action. if people truly wanted the hard truth, then the press would provide it. they cant sell you something that you do not want.
Complaining isnt activism. stop bitching on the internet and do something about it!
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Tom Reingold
Supporter Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12273 Registered: 1-2003

| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 4:17 pm: |
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Remember what happened to banks in the great depression? I believe the FDIC is what has prevented a repeat of that story.
"mem's signature is trendier than mine."
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The Libertarian
Citizen Username: Local_1_crew
Post Number: 1504 Registered: 3-2004

| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 4:18 pm: |
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It's an example of a regulatory agency which I'm happy to have (and pay for). You reap its benefits, too, since you don't stay up at night wondering if your bank balance will be there tomorrow. i would happily see it go away. i am being forced to fund ssomething i do not want and did not ask for. Complaining isnt activism. stop bitching on the internet and do something about it!
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Hoops
Citizen Username: Hoops
Post Number: 785 Registered: 10-2004

| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 4:35 pm: |
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Unregulated sperm banks vs FDIC regulated banks Sperm 1) Assets are all frozen 2) No ATMs 3) Deposits are easy but what about those withdrawals Banks 1) Deposits are Liquid 2) Funds available 24/7 at Atms 3) Fully insured 4) Sperm is available for use anytime I'll keep my bank. |
   
Gordon Agress
Citizen Username: Odd
Post Number: 332 Registered: 8-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 4:49 pm: |
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Adam Smith was writing about the occasional requirement for government action and regulation long before Karl Marx showed up. Conservative economics -- classic liberalism -- has always recognized the need for collective action in some situations. The suggestion that an objection to socialized medicine must lead logically to an objection to the police department lacks a basic understanding of the objection in the first place. Nor are free market types opposed to airline safety regulation (why let someone compete on safety?) or bank regulation (not only is the required information generally unavailable, but "rational" behavior evaporates in a banking crisis -- leading to failures with generally negative effects on the whole economy). Those that don't want to pay for the FDIC insurance ought to look into money market funds at places like Vanguard -- I think you can even get a debit card for them.
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tom
Citizen Username: Tom
Post Number: 4306 Registered: 5-2001
| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 4:51 pm: |
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Quote:do you think an airline that maintains their fleet and has a good safety record wont let you know?
Are you sure we're talking about the same species of homo sapiens? I'm talking about the ones who brought us Enron and the S&L collapse. Do you think an airline that DOESN'T maintain their fleet WILL let you know? I'd be inclined to think they'd just go ahead and lie. |
   
Tom Reingold
Supporter Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12275 Registered: 1-2003

| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 4:57 pm: |
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Gordon, please tell me what I'm overlooking in the objection to socialized medicine? Rather, I should say I'm well aware of many objections, and I'm concerned about many of the same things that the objectors are. But is there something fundamental I'm missing?
"mem's signature is trendier than mine."
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drewdix
Citizen Username: Drewdix
Post Number: 1109 Registered: 7-2001
| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 5:03 pm: |
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back to the subject- what did the Puppet in Chief say last night that was of any substance- to anyone - besides keepin' us a-skeered? Yes, I have an issue with any politician assuming we have a "creator" and that "God" blesses America. Incredibly irresponsible (but no surprise here from the P.I.C.). Keep your faith to yourself. |
   
Haight-Strawbury
Supporter Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 6720 Registered: 10-2001

| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 5:07 pm: |
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 There's nothing like being on the ocean!
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Gordon Agress
Citizen Username: Odd
Post Number: 333 Registered: 8-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 5:07 pm: |
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Tom, I really don't think this board's policy discussions are very useful. Very few people here take the time to actually understand what it is they are objecting to or supporting. If they haven't done so by the time they type, there's zero chance they'll step back and think about what someone else says. The classic liberal arguments about the social value of free markets were very carefully worked out by some very smart people a long time ago. Adam Smith was no dummy, and has since been improved upon. That doesn't mean he's right, but if you think his ideas are leading to stupid results the odds are very good you don't understand those ideas in the first place. There are some very good summaries available out there, and they'll give you some idea of why many smart people of good will want less government than we currently have, rather than more, though something more than no governmet at all.
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bettyd
Citizen Username: Badjtdso
Post Number: 55 Registered: 12-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 5:16 pm: |
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"The free market provides all" says GOP Man. Tell that to Enron and Worldcom employees, et al. I believe quite a few corporations have sought the comfort of the "government teat" over the years in the form of bail outs because the free market did not provide all. |
   
cjc
Citizen Username: Cjc
Post Number: 5119 Registered: 8-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 9:52 pm: |
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Well, for one thing I thought the president pushing Health Savings Accounts was good. I think that's a great way to rein in costs of healthcare. Then again, I guess I'm one of those rare people that look at the bill and bitch about it to get a couple hundred dollars knocked off, or ask about things up-front and stun all I encounter. What started as a test because Ted Kennedy wouldn't allow a bigger roll-out long ago has been very successful once people know about the option and can access it.
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Nohero
Supporter Username: Nohero
Post Number: 5017 Registered: 10-1999

| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 10:50 pm: |
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As expected with a State of the Union speech by President Bush, on the day after there are people pointing out his misstatements. Unexpectedly, though, the people pointing out the misstatements are in his Administration- Quote:One day after President Bush vowed to reduce America's dependence on Middle East oil by cutting imports from there 75 percent by 2025, his energy secretary and national economic adviser said Wednesday that the president didn't mean it literally. What the president meant, they said in a conference call with reporters, was that alternative fuels could displace an amount of oil imports equivalent to most of what America is expected to import from the Middle East in 2025. But America still would import oil from the Middle East, because that's where the greatest oil supplies are. The president's State of the Union reference to Mideast oil made headlines nationwide Wednesday because of his assertion that "America is addicted to oil" and his call to "break this addiction." Bush vowed to fund research into better batteries for hybrid vehicles and more production of the alternative fuel ethanol, setting a lofty goal of replacing "more than 75 percent of our oil imports from the Middle East by 2025." He pledged to "move beyond a petroleum-based economy and make our dependence on Middle Eastern oil a thing of the past." Not exactly, though, it turns out. "This was purely an example," Energy Secretary Samuel Bodman said. He said the broad goal was to displace foreign oil imports, from anywhere, with domestic alternatives. He acknowledged that oil is a freely traded commodity bought and sold globally by private firms. Consequently, it would be very difficult to reduce imports from any single region, especially the most oil-rich region on Earth. Asked why the president used the words "the Middle East" when he didn't really mean them, one administration official said Bush wanted to dramatize the issue in a way that "every American sitting out there listening to the speech understands." The official spoke only on condition of anonymity because he feared that his remarks might get him in trouble.
Link - http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/news/nation/13767738.htm |
   
Haight-Strawbury
Supporter Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 6722 Registered: 10-2001

| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 11:26 pm: |
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boring There's nothing like being on the ocean!
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Nohero
Supporter Username: Nohero
Post Number: 5018 Registered: 10-1999

| Posted on Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 11:50 pm: |
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It's been a long time since I rated a "boring" ...  |
   
Haight-Strawbury
Supporter Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 6724 Registered: 10-2001

| Posted on Thursday, February 2, 2006 - 12:08 am: |
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a good 2 years...if not more. There's nothing like being on the ocean!
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Nohero
Supporter Username: Nohero
Post Number: 5019 Registered: 10-1999

| Posted on Thursday, February 2, 2006 - 8:08 am: |
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That long!!!! Clearly, I need better material ...  |
   
Haight-Strawbury
Supporter Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 6725 Registered: 10-2001

| Posted on Thursday, February 2, 2006 - 8:50 am: |
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Talk to Duncan. He'll help you out.  There's nothing like being on the ocean!
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LibraryLady(ncjanow)
Supporter Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 2973 Registered: 5-2001

| Posted on Friday, February 3, 2006 - 10:13 am: |
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http://us.f514.mail.yahoo.com/ym/ShowLetter?Idx=0&Search=&YY=6764&order=down&sor t=date&pos=0 Misstatement of the Union The President burnishes the State of the Union through selective facts and strategic omissions. February 1, 2006 Summary The President left out a few things when surveying the State of the Nation: He proudly spoke of "writing a new chapter in the story of self-government" in Iraq and Afghanistan and said the number of democracies in the world is growing. He failed to mention that neither Iraq nor Afghanistan yet qualify as democracies according to the very group whose statistics he cited. Bush called for Congress to pass a line-item veto, failing to mention that the Supreme Court struck down a line-item veto as unconstitutional in 1998. Bills now in Congress would propose a Constitutional amendment, but none have shown signs of life. The President said the economy gained 4.6 million jobs in the past two-and-a-half years, failing to note that it had lost 2.6 million jobs in his first two-and-a-half years in office. The net gain since Bush took office is just a little more than 2 million. He talked of cutting spending, but only "non-security discretionary spending." Actually, total federal spending has increased 42 percent since Bush took office. He spoke of being "on track" to cut the federal deficit in half by 2009. But the deficit is increasing this year, and according to the Congressional Budget Office it will decline by considerably less than half even if Bush's tax cuts are allowed to lapse. Bush spoke of a "goal" of cutting dependence on Middle Eastern oil, failing to mention that US dependence on imported oil and petroleum products increased substantially during his first five years in office, reaching 60 per cent of consumption last year. Analysis We found nothing that was factually incorrect in the President's Jan. 31 State of the Union address to Congress and the nation. However, we did note some selective use of statistics. We also found that Bush omitted some relevant facts that tended to make the state of the union look less rosy than he presented.
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Haight-Strawbury
Supporter Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 6739 Registered: 10-2001

| Posted on Friday, February 3, 2006 - 10:28 am: |
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bunch of b.s.. Bush bashing is now officially a failed art. Roberts and Alito are the two latest examples. |
   
Tom Reingold
Supporter Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12302 Registered: 1-2003

| Posted on Friday, February 3, 2006 - 11:50 am: |
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Thank you, librarylady!
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