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LibraryLady(ncjanow)
Supporter
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 2968
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 2, 2006 - 7:36 am: | 
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Quote:Hamas deserves to be recognized by the international community, and despite the group's militant history, there is a chance the soon-to-be Palestinian leaders could turn away from violence, former President Jimmy Carter said Wednesday.
I guess history never repeats itself. Wonder if he'd of given Hitler a another chance.
Nancy Chiller Janow
On a coffee break..or something like it.
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tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4007
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 2, 2006 - 8:28 am: |
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If the Hamas government is ostracized and isolated, the result is guaranteed to be continued fighting.
If the international community tries to work with the Hamas government subject to the renunciation of violence and the destruction of Israel, maybe some good will come out of it.
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Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 10507
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 2, 2006 - 8:38 am: |
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Remember the Mau Maus? Their tactics made Hamas look like a bunch of kids at a Sunday School picnic. Once they gained power, they renounced violence.
How about Mandella? Same thing. He has ended up a highly respected stateman.
I am not saying that Hamas will do a similar turn around. However, there is some hope if they tone down the rhetoric and the suicide bombings and Israel realizes they can't be treated like a bunch of wayward children. |
Eats Shoots & Leaves
Citizen
Username: Mfpark
Post Number: 2975
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 2, 2006 - 8:47 am: |
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Egypt came out and told Hamas to recognize Israel, renounce violence, join the world community. They did say it would take time, but it is encouraging that a prominent Arab country did this. Wonder if Saudi Arabia has the balls to do the same. |
Guy
Supporter
Username: Vandalay
Post Number: 1480
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 2, 2006 - 9:37 am: |
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The Admin has stated the conditions Hamas must meet to be recognized.
My favorite line from Brother Jimmy:
“If there are prohibitions — like, for instance, in the United States, against giving any money to a government that is controlled by Hamas — then the United States could channel the same amount of money to the Palestinian people through the United Nations, through the refugee fund, through UNICEF, things of that kind,” he added.
So Jimmy thinks it's ok to break a law to fund terrorists, but not OK for the NSA to wiretap them.
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Eats Shoots & Leaves
Citizen
Username: Mfpark
Post Number: 2977
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 2, 2006 - 9:43 am: |
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Um, Guy, I think you missed something here. He said that aid would still go to the Palestinian people through non-Hamas controlled agencies--the UN, other Palestinian aid groups, etc. Unless you are going to call the UN terrorists (which I am sure you would like to do at times) or call all Palestinian people terrorists (which might also get a chortle out of you), you over-reached.
What Carter is saying is that instead of cutting off all aid to the Palestinian people and causing huge amounts of suffering, aid can flow in ways that does not involve Hamas.
Now, you can argue the effectiveness of this as opposed to letting the Palestinian people reap the rewards of voting for Hamas, or you could argue that the money would still get diverted to Hamas--those are legitimate positions to take. But Carter is not saying it is okay to fund terrorists, however much fun it is for you to say that. |
Haight-Strawbury
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 6727
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 2, 2006 - 9:52 am: |
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Oh, like an oil for food program...Carter's a moron and anyone who trusts anything Jimmy Peanut has to say is a bigger moron.
There's nothing like being on the ocean!
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J. Crohn
Supporter
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2357
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 2, 2006 - 10:34 am: |
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World Bank President Paul Wolfowitz, whom so many here love to revile, came out two days ago in support of the Bank not cutting off funding to the Palestinians.
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Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 10515
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 2, 2006 - 10:52 am: |
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There has already been a lot of talk about getting aid to the Palestinian people through NGOs. The problem is corruption and doing this through the UN will probably lead to more corruption.
J. Crohn, as a Neo-Con Wolfowitz's remarks aren't that surprising. Neither would him calling for an invasion if the next elections get cancelled, a distinct possibility imho.
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Haight-Strawbury
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 6730
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 2, 2006 - 2:18 pm: |
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JChron and Bobk,
I'm surprised with both of you. Obviously, both of you know that Wolfowitz is clearly following exactly what the WORLD BANK STANDS for with his comment.
Reuters:
"Over time, the bank has evolved from an organization focused on growth through trade and investment to an organization set on achieving a WORLD WITHOUT POVERTY. Its core mission is no longer to partner with middle-income countries in their pursuit of balanced and externally oriented growth; it is to alleviate poverty in poor countries and in the poorest pockets of middle-income countries. That is the World Bank that Wolfensohn was chosen to create and lead, and the one Wolfowitz has now embraced."
His obligation remains the Palestinian people and being a neocon has nothing to do with his comments as Bobk would like to believe.
shame, shame on both of you. |
Joe
Citizen
Username: Gonets
Post Number: 1152
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 2, 2006 - 2:45 pm: |
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I now feel much better about Wolfowitz becoming the head of the World Bank now that I know it's only a ceremonial position.
By the way Reuters was not the source of that quote. No surprise. Distorting comes as natural as breathing to you. |
Haight-Strawbury
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 6731
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 2, 2006 - 3:13 pm: |
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I got the quote from a Reuters article..Not sure why you even waste time posting. You never have anything important (or intelligent) to say.
And the head of the world bank being a figure head position...holy ignorance. |
Joe
Citizen
Username: Gonets
Post Number: 1153
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 2, 2006 - 3:25 pm: |
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Please make up your mind. Is Wolfowitz leading the World Bank or following it.
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Haight-Strawbury
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 6733
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 2, 2006 - 3:32 pm: |
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Joe,
Your childish antics belong elsewhere. You're boring the rest of us.
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Joe
Citizen
Username: Gonets
Post Number: 1154
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 2, 2006 - 3:35 pm: |
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Too dumb to answer to a simple question? |
Haight-Strawbury
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 6734
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 2, 2006 - 3:38 pm: |
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Joe writes: "Too dumb to answer to a simple question?"
No, Joe I'm not too dumb to answer to a simple question.
what a tool.
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Joe
Citizen
Username: Gonets
Post Number: 1155
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 2, 2006 - 3:45 pm: |
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Darn. You got me. My grammar goes down the tubes when I'm conversing with dumb people. It's my little way of empathizing with pinheads.
Back to the simple question.
Is Wolfowitz leading the World Bank or following it?
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Haight-Strawbury
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 6735
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 2, 2006 - 3:54 pm: |
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A: leading it
Anything else? Perhaps, you'd like to move on to let's say state capitals? |
Joe
Citizen
Username: Gonets
Post Number: 1156
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, February 2, 2006 - 4:16 pm: |
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But you said,
JChron and Bobk,
I'm surprised with both of you. Obviously, both of you know that Wolfowitz is clearly following exactly what the WORLD BANK STANDS for with his comment.
Care to explain the obvious inconsistency?
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Haight-Strawbury
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 6736
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 2, 2006 - 5:00 pm: |
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Joe,
Please take notes:
Being a leader does not mean rewriting the charter. The World Bank made wonderful strides while under the leadership of James Wolfensohn. Many positive changes were made including a decision to focus on building stronger partnerships to reduce poverty. Wolfowitz has followed that lead because he has a responsibility to do so.
Leading does not always mean rewriting the game plan. You for some reason fail to understand this very key point. The World Bank has made it a mission to help the impoverished. Seems to be no one and I mean no one needs more than the Palestinian people. As a result, the head of the World Bank is correct in his thinking.
Now, some might say electing Hamas is in essence committing suicide. They may be right but the World Bank cannot just turn their back on the Palestinian Authority especially when you consider In 2005, the Palestinian Authority's budget deficit reached about $800 million, of which $340 million was financed by donors in the form of direct budget support.
Now, despite this, Wolfowitz also says What the bank does depends on what the Quartet asks. (The Quartet being the U.S, Russia, the European Union, the United States and the United Nations)
ok, school's out for the day.
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J. Crohn
Supporter
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2359
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 2, 2006 - 9:38 pm: |
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"J. Crohn, as a Neo-Con Wolfowitz's remarks aren't that surprising."
BobK, I did not mean to suggest Wolfowitz's remarks were surprising in the least. I simply pointed up the fact that Wolfowitz, whom admirers of Jimmy Carter are wont to disparage (and vice versa), is in the same policy camp with Carter on this issue.
(My own view, so far, is that Jimmy and Wolfie are entirely correct with regard to foreign donations, yet Israel cannot countenance delivering collected tax revenues to the PA so long as Hamas is still Hamas; i.e., if Hamas does not abide by previously negotiated understandings and agreements, Israel should not either.)
"Neither would him calling for an invasion if the next elections get cancelled, a distinct possibility imho."
But this is nonsense. |
J. Crohn
Supporter
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2360
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 2, 2006 - 9:45 pm: |
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"Wolfowitz has followed that lead because he has a responsibility to do so."
Strawberry, I wonder if you are aware that Wolfowitz is currently in the process of completely shaking up the World Bank on account of corruption. He's meeting a great deal of institutional resistance, including what appear to be organized attempts from inside the organization to fight his overhaul.
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Haight-Strawbury
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 6737
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, February 2, 2006 - 11:03 pm: |
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corruption is one thing, a mission statement is another. Bottom line: The World Bank cannot offer to turn its back on poverty. Of course, they can be told to and in this case they probably will. However, that's not a call the President of the World Bank should be making. |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 10522
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, February 3, 2006 - 4:05 am: |
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JC
I agree with everything, except the tax revenues. The taxes were collected on behalf of the Palestinians by Israel from, mostly, Palestinians. Not to turn the money over is close to theft. It also is another example of "Little Brown Brotherism" on the part of Israel, which is one of the reasons Hamas swept the elections in the first place. I think the upcoming elections is the main reason the fifty five million or so per month is being withheld. Without the money the Palestinians can't pay their employees and this starts down the road to further chaos.
An interesting point is that most everyone, both us amateurs here on MOL and the TV talking heads, assume Hamas is much less corrupt than the PLO. Interesting, huh?
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J. Crohn
Supporter
Username: Jcrohn
Post Number: 2361
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 3, 2006 - 2:05 pm: |
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"I agree with everything, except the tax revenues. The taxes were collected on behalf of the Palestinians by Israel from, mostly, Palestinians. Not to turn the money over is close to theft."
Bob, if you are an attorney overseeing the finances of an invalid whose daily affairs have been turned over to a case manager, and if the lousy, thieving, case manager who had been handling things is replaced by a convicted child molester who, in addition to using the funds you give him buy groceries and care for his charge, plans to use them also to buy anything it takes to lure your very own 9 year old daughter into his bed, is it not your responsibility as a father to escrow the invalid's funds until his case manager is replaced or the funds can be elsewhere directed? Keep in mind that the invalid himself hates your guts and specifically requested this particular child molester for a case manager.
"It also is another example of "Little Brown Brotherism" on the part of Israel, which is one of the reasons Hamas swept the elections in the first place."
This is unbelievably ridiculous.
"I think the upcoming elections is the main reason the fifty five million or so per month is being withheld."
The money would have been withheld in any case. In fact, it has been withheld in the past in retribution for terror attacks.
"Without the money the Palestinians can't pay their employees and this starts down the road to further chaos."
Indeed it does. But the reason the $55 million a month is being withheld is because the government elect of the Palestinian people is a terrorist organization sworn to eradicating Israel. The government of Israel does not collect taxes for the PA out of the goodness of its heart, or out of any concern for the Palestinians (which it does not regard as "little brothers," brown or otherwise) but in exchange for recognition and working agreements, which Hamas cannot, unless it dramatically reforms, deliver.
One possible solution to the dilemma would be for a third party to take responsibility for distributing collected tax revenues directly to parties other than Hamas, but I fear this won't be undertaken because a) unless payments for services and goods were made directly to payees, the difficulty keeping the money out of Hamas's hands would be huge and b) such a scheme would undermine the principle of Palestinian self-governance and provoke an outcry among people who like to whine about "little brown brotherism" and the like.
"An interesting point is that most everyone, both us amateurs here on MOL and the TV talking heads, assume Hamas is much less corrupt than the PLO. Interesting, huh?"
Well, by all accounts I've read this is undisputed fact (although it could change, of course). The same can be said for Hizbullah, by the way, unless you count the organization's political double-dealing between Lebanon and Syria. Nasrullah in particular is known for his honesty, even by the Israelis.
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Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 10534
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, February 4, 2006 - 9:56 am: |
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JC, I see your point, but starving the Palestinians isn't going to help to work out the issues. I view the Israeli tax collectors as a fiduciary.
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LibraryLady(ncjanow)
Supporter
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 2979
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, February 4, 2006 - 11:47 pm: |
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Found in my search on the result of the publication of the cartoons of Mohammed in Demark..
Quote:Mahmoud Zahar, leader of the militant Palestinian group Hamas, told the Italian daily Il Giornale the cartoonists should be punished by death.
We should have killed all those who offend the Prophet and instead here we are, protesting peacefully." he said.
Nice folks to deal with, eh?
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anon
Supporter
Username: Anon
Post Number: 2584
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, February 5, 2006 - 2:57 pm: |
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Did the mau maus or Nelson Mandela or his group, the African National Congress, strap bombs on to their children and send them to blow themselves up so as to kill other children?
The Nazis were less "corrupt" than the Weimar politicians. |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 10545
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, February 6, 2006 - 10:25 am: |
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Interesting point, Anon. There is something about suicide bombings that set that particular form of warfare separate from bombs, mortars and artillery, the latter three often target civilians as well.
Hamas, and please don't take this as in any way an endorsement of their methods or goals, have managed to kill around 800 Israelis, mostly civilians. How many civilians did we kill at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, not to mention our attacks on German cities such as the firebombing of Dresden? I know you can make a case that the civilians killed in the above bombings were citizens of inherently evil, militaristic regimes and that the attacks were justified, but still a lot of people who never aimed a rifle at Allied troops were killed.
I won't even get into the thousands of Iraqis killed since our invasion.
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