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tulip
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Username: Braveheart

Post Number: 3178
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Thursday, February 9, 2006 - 6:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Does it stop at Cheney? Libby filed that his "superiors" ordered him to release information about Plame. Is there anyone else other than the President among the superiors?
Are we surprised?
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cjc
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Username: Cjc

Post Number: 5159
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 9, 2006 - 8:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Has Fitzgerald said that Plame was a covert agent of the CIA within the last 5 years before this 'leak' occured?

Is there any evidence that Libby or his 'superior' knew she was covert (assuming she was), which is necessary to prove Libby in violation of national security law?

What we do have is someone charged with lying to a federal prosecutor.

If Libby lied to a federal prosecutor he should be prosecuted as that is the law. The central crime that is/was being investigated on knowingly revealing a covert CIA operative's identity has not been definitively proven to have occured.

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Dr. Winston O'Boogie
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Username: Casey

Post Number: 1912
Registered: 8-2003


Posted on Thursday, February 9, 2006 - 8:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Fitzgerald did say Plame was still covert:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11179719/site/newsweek/

and arguably, it is the obstruction that has prevented anyone from being charged with outing her.
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cjc
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Username: Cjc

Post Number: 5161
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 9, 2006 - 9:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't know if it's that clear cut. And I'd sure like to ask the judge's opinion about his opinion as summed up by Isikoff.

http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200602060919.asp

"......Last December, Libby's defense team asked Fitzgerald for "All documents, regardless of when created, relating to whether Valerie Wilson's status as a CIA employee, or any aspect of that status, was classified at any time between May 6, 2003 and July 14, 2003." (Those dates mark the period in which some Bush administration officials discussed Wilson with reporters.)

Fitzgerald said no. "We have neither sought, much less obtained, 'all documents, regardless of when created, relating to whether Valerie Wilson's status as a CIA employee, or any aspect of that status, was classified at any time between May 6, 2003 and July 14, 2003,'" Fitzgerald wrote to the Libby team on January 9, 2006. Fitzgerald told Libby's lawyers that he would look for any such documents, and "if we locate" them, he might turn them over. But he argued that he had no responsibility to do so, because they were not relevant to the perjury and obstruction of justice charges against Libby.

Later, in a letter dated January 23, 2006, Fitzgerald refused to say whether he knew if Plame had been an undercover agent during the five years preceding her exposure. Referring to a 1963 Supreme Court decision in Brady v. Maryland, which requires prosecutors to turn over evidence that might point toward the defendant's innocence, Fitzgerald wrote, "We do not agree that if there were any documents indicating that Ms. Wilson did not act in an undercover capacity or did not act covertly in the five years prior to July 2003 (which we neither confirm nor deny) that any such documents would constitute Brady material in a case where Mr. Libby is not charged with a violation of statutes prohibiting the disclosure of classified information."

At this point, with reams of evidence in the case still hidden from public view, it is impossible to say much of anything for sure. And there may in fact be irrefutable evidence that Valerie Wilson "was a person whose identity the CIA was making specific efforts to conceal and who had carried out covert work overseas within the last five years." But if there is, Patrick Fitzgerald hasn't shown it yet."



Unless Fitzgerald is being coy so as to possibly nab someone else for the crime he was initially hired to look into.
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Dr. Winston O'Boogie
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Username: Casey

Post Number: 1913
Registered: 8-2003


Posted on Thursday, February 9, 2006 - 9:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

it's going to be nearly impossible to convict any of these guys of knowingly outing Plame.

but the best anyone can say about Libby and Rove is that they were cavalier in discussing Plame with journalists. it turns out her role was classified and they claim they knew nothing. so they're saying they were chatting about someone they knew was CIA without bothering to check her status.

that should be cause to revoke their security clearance and fire them (because what good are they without security clearance). but in the "heck of a job" White House, such incompetence doesn't get you fired, it gets you a medal.
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Foj
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Username: Foger

Post Number: 937
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Thursday, February 9, 2006 - 9:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Really-NOW - it was in Fitzs indictment day statement- that stated Plame was a NOC.

I do take my head out of the Liberal BLogosphere a bit--- enuff to be aware of planet earth.

CJC ---Plame was working for Brewster Jennings- they worked on COUNTER PROLIFERATRION. Nuke, Bio & Chem. NOw thw whole world knows and the CIA network has to be rebuilt.

The outing of Plame and Brewtser Jennings makes our world more Dangerous. LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.vLESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.

Why did they do this CJC? WHY-- There are suitcase nukes floating around that could have been bought by Brewster Jennings. 2 Suitcase nukes are loose in the USA, According to Senate Testimony.

How dare you be so calus as to think your post is remotely adult like, or based on rational thought.

Did you bother to think about loose nukes in the US--- or is your Almighty King BUSH more important.

I have just witnessed one of the most pathetic posts ever, in years of surfing the net.

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Nohero
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Username: Nohero

Post Number: 5028
Registered: 10-1999


Posted on Thursday, February 9, 2006 - 9:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"At this point, with reams of evidence in the case still hidden from public view, it is impossible to say much of anything for sure."

Except that an honest, level-headed prosecutor believes that this is worth pursuing.

At this point, any belittling of the possibility of serious crimes having been committed, is simply spin.
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Foj
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Username: Foger

Post Number: 940
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Thursday, February 9, 2006 - 9:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

nohero-- what about the Counter proliferation efforts?

Brester Jennings intercepted VX gas in Turkey. Was this an attempt by the Bush regime to plant VX in Iraq?

These people were going arouynd the world buying up black Market WMDs---Russian suitcase nukes- ETC>

How can anyone rationalize destroying this operation?
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Foj
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Username: Foger

Post Number: 941
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Thursday, February 9, 2006 - 9:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

nohero-- what about the Counter proliferation efforts?

Brester Jennings intercepted VX gas in Turkey. Was this an attempt by the Bush regime to plant VX in Iraq?

These people were going arouynd the world buying up black Market WMDs---Russian suitcase nukes- ETC>

How can anyone rationalize destroying this operation?
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Southerner
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Username: Southerner

Post Number: 646
Registered: 2-2004
Posted on Thursday, February 9, 2006 - 10:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nohero,
I'll agree. If serious crimes were committed then indict the perpetrators. But don't you think we should see at minimum an indictment before you start naming names. I'd prefer an actual conviction, but I know that is asking way too much during an election year. I wonder if Rove, Cheney, and Bush could sue for slander after they are never indicted.
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Nohero
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Username: Nohero

Post Number: 5030
Registered: 10-1999


Posted on Thursday, February 9, 2006 - 10:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mr. Libby was indicted. And, as the news reports recounted above indicate, he is "singing".
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Dave
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Username: Dave

Post Number: 8588
Registered: 4-1997


Posted on Thursday, February 9, 2006 - 11:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I suggest Southerner begin reading media other than MOL for national news.
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Foj
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Username: Foger

Post Number: 944
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Thursday, February 9, 2006 - 11:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LOL
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Guy
Supporter
Username: Vandalay

Post Number: 1499
Registered: 8-2004


Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 7:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The outing of NSA wiretapping programs, CIA international terrorist prisons, and CIA terrorist airline transports, makes our world more Dangerous. LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.vLESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.LESS SAFE.

Thanks Foj, you saved me alot of typing.

This from Fitz. "A formal assessment has not been done of the damage caused by the disclosure of Valerie Wilson's status as a CIA employee, and thus we possess no such document," he wrote in a January 9, 2006,

The CIA has not even bothered to assess the " damage" from Plame.

Porter Goss on the other hand has said that the leak of cooperation of Europeans against Al Qeda has cause serious damage.

Why isn't there a similar assessment of the Plame affair by the CIA.

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Madden 11
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Username: Madden_11

Post Number: 811
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 8:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Because Goss, like every other Bush appointee, is no more than a slavishly devoted crony.

If a Democratic President had pulled this , a Republican Congress would have run him out of town on a rail (and rightly so) long ago, and if you don't believe that, it's time to question your intelligence and/or sanity.

Blind loyalty to (and borderline worship of) a man instead of a country has made our world less safe, less safe, etc.
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tom
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Username: Tom

Post Number: 4329
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 8:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

and it always has.
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Bob K
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Username: Bobk

Post Number: 10613
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 8:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't think it is up to the prosecutor to determine if Plame was or was not a covert operative under the special act on this subject. This is an issue of fact for a jury to decide, although it is up to Fitzgerald to decide to bring such charges or not.

It is also a crime to out any CIA employee. Ms Plame was an employee of the covert branch (not just an inteligence analyst) who went to considerable trouble to keep her employment at the CIA quiet with her friends and neighbors.

I don't think Scooter wants to spend ten or fifteen years in jail. I suspect he will be willing to cooperate. The fact his trial has been delayed, with his waiver of the right to a speedy trial, may be indicative of his decision to "sing".
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Guy
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Username: Vandalay

Post Number: 1500
Registered: 8-2004


Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 8:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Blind hatred of a man instead of a loyalty to one's country has made our world less safe, less safe, etc."

Thanks Madden, saved some typing again.

Bobk, Fitz was speaking of the CIA, who has yet to assess the damage.


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Bob K
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Username: Bobk

Post Number: 10615
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 8:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My recollection is that the CIA was the one that started the whole thing by asking the Justice Department to investigate the leak. At this point Fitzgerald is claiming that he either doesn't have info on Plames' covert status or feels it is irrelevant because Scooter hasn't been charged with this.
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Guy
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Username: Vandalay

Post Number: 1501
Registered: 8-2004


Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 8:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The CIA asked for the investigation about the leak, but never did a formal damage assessment.

Fitz' investigation has not found evidence that any law involving national security was broken.
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Southerner
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Username: Southerner

Post Number: 648
Registered: 2-2004
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 8:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just think most of you libs will be once again disappointed with the nature of his singing. You guys set the bar so high going after Cheney, Rove, and the Pres that even if all the singing leads to more indictments for lesser known people it will still leave you with egg on your face. Do you really think that Libby is going to give Fitz, Rove, Cheney, or Bush? It won't happen no matter how bad you want it to happen. That's like asking Begala to give us Clinton. And Dave, I read plenty of other media and I realize most of them are in the dark as to what this singing is all about. I just think it will be yet another disappointment for you Bush bashers. And then when I laugh mightily at you, I will be accused of being ignorant although I am generally right on political issues.
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Dr. Winston O'Boogie
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Username: Casey

Post Number: 1914
Registered: 8-2003


Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 9:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

IOKIYAR
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cjc
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Username: Cjc

Post Number: 5163
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 9:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bob K -- you are incorrect to say it's against the law to out "any" CIA employee. And it's not up to a jury to determine if she was covert or not. Either the paperwork at the CIA designates her as covert or it doesn't.

From today's NY Times and their supposed bombshell story today using unnamed sources:

"The prosecutor's note of Jan. 23 does not, however, make any reference to Mr. Libby's involvement in the disclosure of Ms. Wilson's identity."
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Madden 11
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Username: Madden_11

Post Number: 812
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 11:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Blind hatred of a man instead of a loyalty to one's country has made our world less safe, less safe, etc."

Thanks Madden, saved some typing again.


Glad I could help, but next time try thinking for yourself instead of cutting corners...you might come closer to a valid point that way.

There may be "hatred" (which seems to be your word for disagreement) for Bush, but it isn't blind, and it isn't the reason for his monumental failures on every issue of importance. Most people didn't "hate" George Bush until he started screwing everything up...this is not a chicken and egg discussion.

The fact remains that the right wing loves George Bush more than they love America...and that's a real problem for democracy.
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Nohero
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Username: Nohero

Post Number: 5031
Registered: 10-1999


Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 11:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It might be helpful to remind ourselves of what the Prosecutor said, in announcing the indictment of Mr. Libby. And, after that, to think about what this says about the character of Mr. Libby's superiors -

Quote:

Valerie Wilson was a CIA officer. In July 2003, the fact that Valerie Wilson was a CIA officer was classified. Not only was it classified, but it was not widely known outside the intelligence community.

Valerie Wilson's friends, neighbors, college classmates had no idea she had another life.

The fact that she was a CIA officer was not well- known, for her protection or for the benefit of all us. It's important that a CIA officer's identity be protected, that it be protected not just for the officer, but for the nation's security.

Valerie Wilson's cover was blown in July 2003. The first sign of that cover being blown was when Mr. Novak published a column on July 14th, 2003.

But Mr. Novak was not the first reporter to be told that Wilson's wife, Valerie Wilson, Ambassador Wilson's wife Valerie, worked at the CIA. Several other reporters were told.

In fact, Mr. Libby was the first official known to have told a reporter when he talked to Judith Miller in June of 2003 about Valerie Wilson.
...

I can say that for the people who work at the CIA and work at other places, they have to expect that when they do their jobs that classified information will be protected. And they have to expect that when they do their jobs, that information about whether or not they are affiliated with the CIA will be protected.

And they run a risk when they work for the CIA that something bad could happen to them, but they have to make sure that they don't run the risk that something bad is going to happen to them from something done by their own fellow government employees.
...

I will say this: To the CIA people who are going out at a time that we need more human intelligence, I think everyone agrees with that, at a time when we need our spy agencies to have people work there, I think just the notion that someone's identity could be compromised lightly, to me compromises the ability to recruit people and say, Come work for us, come work for the government, come be trained, come invest your time, come work anonymously here or wherever else, go do jobs for the benefit of the country for which people will not thank you, because they will not know, they need to know that we will not cast their anonymity aside lightly.


http://www.trialbriefs.com/FitzgeraldTranscript.htm
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tom
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Username: Tom

Post Number: 4332
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 11:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It never ceases to amaze me what the paleo-cons will swallow in order to get their tax cuts. Guys: isn't it possible that there's someone out there who could give you tax cuts AND not f*** everything up in the process? Or is that part of the plan, too?

Think how much could be saved if we weren't in this idiotic war. Hundreds of billions which could be fed right back to the trust-fund and gated-community sets.
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Guy
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Username: Vandalay

Post Number: 1503
Registered: 8-2004


Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 11:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let's say it again. Then charge him with the crime of outing a covert agent.

Looks like Fitz doesn't have the evidence to support his irresponsible statements.

Why do you guys think that we have blind loyalty to Bush? Some of the things he has done have pissed us off too.
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cjc
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Username: Cjc

Post Number: 5165
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 11:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is no indictment of anyone for leaking classified information. There is no indictment of anyone for intentionally leaking the identity of a covert operative of the CIA. There is no documentation or CIA official stepping forward definitively saying Valerie Plame was a covert CIA operative.

All of the above is what the prosecutor was hired to investigate. Instead, we have one indictment for lying to a federal prosecutor.
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Bob K
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Username: Bobk

Post Number: 10623
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 12:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

cjc, it is a crime to reveal classified information such as the identiy of a CIA field officer, which is what Ms. Flame was. The problem is proving that someone knew the information was classified. I bet Scooter is saying, "classified? God, I didn't know that, talk to Cheney."

As Yogi is alleged to have said, "it ain't over 'till its over".
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Foj
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Username: Foger

Post Number: 947
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 1:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"The CIA has not even bothered to assess the " damage" from Plame."

The Post Mortem has been refered to. I guess you missed it.
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Guy
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Username: Vandalay

Post Number: 1505
Registered: 8-2004


Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 2:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Foj, please give Fitz a call. I think he missed it too.
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tulip
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Username: Braveheart

Post Number: 3197
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 2:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Do you think this will happen?


Cheney Should Be Investigated if He Authorized Leak, Democratic and Republican Senators Say
(AP) 01:19:39 PM (ET), Sunday, February 12, 2006 (WASHINGTON)
Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald should investigate Vice President Dick Cheney and others in the CIA leak probe if they authorized an aide to give secret information to reporters, Democratic and Republican senators said Sunday.

Sen. Jack Reed, D-R.I., called the leak of intelligence information "inappropriate" if it is true that unnamed "superiors" instructed Cheney's former chief of staff, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, to divulge the material on Iraq.

Sen. George Allen, R-Va., said a full investigation is necessary.

"I don't think anybody should be releasing classified information, period, whether in the Congress, executive branch or some underling in some bureaucracy," said Allen, who appeared with Reed on "Fox News Sunday."

According to court documents disclosed last week, Libby told a federal grand jury that he disclosed in July 2003 the contents of a classified National Intelligence Estimate as part of the Bush administration's defense of intelligence used to justify invading Iraq.

Fitzgerald said in the documents it was his understanding that "Mr. Libby testified that he was authorized to disclose information about the NIE to the press by his superiors."

The White House has refused to comment on the case.

"I think this calls into question in terms of Fitzgerald's investigation of the conduct of the vice president and others," Reed said. "I think he has to look closely at their behavior."

Allen expressed confidence in Fitzgerald, whom he called "a very articulate, professional prosecutor."

"And I think the facts will lead wherever they lead, and I think he will prosecute as appropriate," Allen said.

Libby, 55, was indicted on charges that he lied to FBI agents and the grand jury about how he learned CIA operative Valerie Plame's identity and when he told reporters. He is not charged with leaking classified information.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.



News content provided by the Associated Press.
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anon
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Username: Anon

Post Number: 2598
Registered: 6-2002
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 5:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

George Allen is the "favorite" for President in 2008 among GOP insiders.

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