| Author | Message | ||
     SoOrLady Citizen Username: Soorlady Post Number: 2967 Registered: 9-2003 |
Just a reminder: A Responsible Withdrawal from Iraq: How Can We Do It? Wednesday, February 8th 7:00 to 10:30 pm St. George's Church Fellowship Hall Speakers include: Rosemary Palmer and Paul Schroeder, the parents of Augie Schroeder and founders of Families of the Fallen for Change http://www.fofchange.com/. Ray McGovern, former 27-year CIA analyst who briefed VP Bush weekly during the Reagan Administration Paul Martin, political director of Peace Action, Washington DC. Leading withdrawal proposals in Congress and by citizens groups will be presented and compared with the Bush Administration's "National Strategy for Victory." The potential impact on Iraq of the proposals will be assessed. Lots of time will be available for Q&A Sponsored by South Mountain Peace Action and Families of the Fallen for Change. Seating is limited, so reservations are highly recommended. Call the meeting co-sponsor, South Mountain Peace Action at: 973-763-9493 or email paul@beaboutpeace.com. | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 656 Registered: 10-2005 |
Again? | ||
| notehead Supporter Username: Notehead Post Number: 3027 Registered: 5-2001  |
What are you getting at, Scrotis? Do you think the subject is not worthy of discussion? If you don't want to go, don't go. | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5136 Registered: 8-2003 |
We will do a responsible draw-down and withdrawal when the time is right. Nice step today when it became known that Sunnis set up their own militia. That's how the story was framed, but the truth of it is that Sunnis have split with Al Qada in Anbar and are working to kill and drive them out. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 10570 Registered: 5-2001 |
....along with an Shites they can find, not to mention the odd Kurd or two. Private militias in Iraq are not a positive by any stretch of the imagination. | ||
| Haight-Strawbury Supporter Username: Strawberry Post Number: 6746 Registered: 10-2001  |
This is an interesting event and Paul should be saluted for his hard work in getting it organized. | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 657 Registered: 10-2005 |
notehead- I do apologize for my initial post but I just can't fathom how much time is needed to discuss the topic. The choices are limited. I am not trying to steal anything away from the organizers and commend them for putting forth so much effort into putting this event together... That's all...and I will go if my schedule allows rock boy...  | ||
| Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 1481 Registered: 3-2004 |
Scrotey: Understand where you're coming from, but, if strategies for winning and withdrawal can't be discussed, we have no choice but to relinquish our free speech and opinion rights to the guy in the White House. And we know that he would love it if we all just shut up, bowed out, and left all the heavy lifting, "planning and execution" to his team. Ain't gonna happen. | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5138 Registered: 8-2003 |
Bob K -- you can't as a serious thinker be serious in your analysis of the Al Qada/Sunni development. | ||
| Southerner Citizen Username: Southerner Post Number: 639 Registered: 2-2004 |
Hey Scrot, This is what libs do best. They discuss, and think, and meet, and discuss some more, and then have some more meetings, and then discuss, then think some more, and then meet, and then discuss, and meet while thinking. It all means NOTHING other than it makes the few libs who show up feel better about themselves. My personal belief is that they have to meet because they are people who need a consensus to verify their own beliefs and to feel like they actually matter. Conservatives simply know what they believe by forming a personal opinion and then they vote that conviction on election day. Enjoy the few post meeting minutes when you feel important and that you make a difference. | ||
| Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 1482 Registered: 3-2004 |
I think I'll puke now. | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5141 Registered: 8-2003 |
Save it for Wednesday. You'll blend right in. | ||
| Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 1483 Registered: 3-2004 |
I guess you're right, cjc. It'll resemble your thought processes. | ||
| Paul Surovell Supporter Username: Paulsurovell Post Number: 524 Registered: 2-2003 |
A couple of points. We invited the White House to come and present its position (National Strategy for Victory). They declined, saying it would be too expensive (travel and lodging). The White House position will be presented fairly and competently. The presentation will focus on the President's definition of "victory" which is the requirement for withdrawing our forces under his plan. There will also be presentations on the Warner Amendment which was signed into law and several initiatives in Congress that we've categorized as: Timetable, International Solution and Unconditional Withdrawal. Finally, Paul Schroeder will present a plan of Families of the Fallen for Change, the organization he has formed with his wife Rosemary Palmer. The FoF plan is based on benchmarks under which US troop levels would be lowered in tandem with lowered levels of violence in Iraq. Links to the plans that will be discussed tomorrow night can be found at http://www.beaboutpeace.com/archives/2006/01/list_of_withdra.html Tomorrow night's event will not be "just another meeting." It will be a discussion looking forward and focusing on solutions, seeking points in common among all positions, including the President's. We think tomorrow's meeting will advance the dialogue on how the US can end its military involvement in Iraq in a responsible fashion. If you're thinking of coming, I highly recommend making a reservation. There are only about 45 seats available at this time. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 10573 Registered: 5-2001 |
Cjc - The military has been reporting what they call "red on red" engagements for over a year. Many of the Sunni insurgents are not in line with the tactics used by Al Qaeda in Iraq. A Sunni militia is going to be made up of insurgents and their supporters, not supporters of the Iraq government. It will not be under the control of the Iraq central government. To encourage any sectarian militia in Iraq, doesn't make a lot of sense and makes the goal of a united Iraq much more difficult to achieve. You are falling into the classic "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" mindset. Now, back on topic. I don't know if the Schroeder/Palmer initiative has anything to do with it. However, since they started to speak out the administration has begun to supply additional body armor to the troops and has started a multi-discipline task force to try to deal with the IEDs, the largest cause of American dead and wounded. | ||
| drewdix Citizen Username: Drewdix Post Number: 1114 Registered: 7-2001 |
I'm proud to be a presenter at tonight's meeting and I encourage everyone to attend. Paul has done a tremendous organization job. | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5156 Registered: 8-2003 |
So....what's the plan? | ||
| Dave Supporter Username: Dave Post Number: 8576 Registered: 4-1997  |
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| Barbara Citizen Username: Blh Post Number: 610 Registered: 5-2001  |
I have to say thank you to the organizers and presenters of Wed's forum. I had not previously heard the spectrum of proposals explained so clearly and in such a balanced manner. I now understand each of the positions, and can more clearly explain my opposition or support of each. It was a joy and hurt to see Rosemary (and Paul - though I didn't really know Paul in town before) --- I have such admiration for them, and wonder if I could channel my anger and pain in such a positive, unselfish fashion as they have. Thank you all again. | ||
| Barbara Citizen Username: Blh Post Number: 611 Registered: 5-2001 |
PS did anyone else notice that the young man from SHU looked like a young version of Dave Ross (not that Dave isn't young ....)  | ||
| SoOrLady Citizen Username: Soorlady Post Number: 2975 Registered: 9-2003 |
I don't see that Barbara. But I need a visual.. Dave, please post a photo from your SHU days. I asked Kyle if he was on the debate team.. he is. I explained that sometimes it's ok to speak fast.. but not always.. like last night. I wish he had spoken a little slower. Dynamic personality though .. cute kid. | ||
| Southerner Citizen Username: Southerner Post Number: 649 Registered: 2-2004 |
Okay, sounds like you libs had a nice discussion and probably got that warm and fuzzy feeling inside knowing that you accomplished something. Now, please explain you accomplished other than bashing this administration. | ||
| Scrotis Lo Knows Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 661 Registered: 10-2005 |
Thank you Southerner for making some blunt but true points. Dave-All this "discussion" and this is all they came up with? Ummm, ok.... Innisowen-see your are up to your old tricks again-must you always attack the intelligence of those you disagree with? It only makes your retorts as being weak, Mr "i"ndependent."  | ||
| Eats Shoots & Leaves Citizen Username: Mfpark Post Number: 3011 Registered: 9-2001  |
Southerner and Scrotis: For two guys who are so intelligent, you seem to be blinded by your partisan rage. Think for a minute--how does democracy work, when it works properly? Through an informed electorate, and through informed citizens actively participating in their society. And how is the electorate informed? Partly through forums like this one that Paul arranged. And what is the best type of forum created by citizens acting resonsibly as citizens? One that involves intelligent and informed discussion of the policies and history and explores possible options. Far better than simple speeches and one person ranting their point of view, and better than empty posturing on a message board. If you do not like what this forum came up with or said, bully for you, now go organize your own or find some other way of rationally explicating a different point of view to your fellow citizens. I would love to see you actively bringing thoughtful conservative speakers to our community, and I am sure many others would as well. Do something for once, and then you can bitch about what Paul set up. As far as I am concerned, Paul has accomplished far far more than any of us posting on this Board, and I include both you wise and esteemed gentlemen and myself. He is a shining example of citizens taking an active and inquisitive role in the issues of the day, and he has been doing this for years with the same careful, sensitive, and research-driven approach. p.s. Did you go to hear the forum, ask questions, challenge the ideas? That is what is needed for the agora to work best for everyone. Where were you? I have seen Paul bend over backwards to accomodate dissenting viewpoints at public events--I am sure you would have been welcomed, listened to with respect by most (there are still some neanderthals who do not know how to disagree respectfully), and all would have benefitted from hearing the presenters answer the challenge. Again, that is how democracy works, and it is how people flesh out ideas and come to a consensus. But you know that already, I am sure. | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 4331 Registered: 5-2001 |
Great post, ES&L. | ||
| drewdix Citizen Username: Drewdix Post Number: 1121 Registered: 7-2001 |
Bullseye, ESL. The right often points out too much complaining, and the lack of leadership and planning and options in response to the administration's present war policy. And not without justification, in many cases. But here was exactly that- clear thought on how to end this war, and why. From speakers supremely qualified to stand up, and voice this critical thinking (check the resumes of Paul, Ray McGovern and Augie's parents). It may not be your view, but there it was. The evening also demonstrated the enourmous support that many of these resolutions have in Congress (Murtha's JR #73 now has 97 co-sponsors in the House, including Majority Leader Nancy Pelosi, and our local Congressmen Donald Payne and Bill Pascrell. His plan has hardly been fled from, despite what talk radio tells us). Yes it would be even better if more of these resolutions had more bi-partisan support, but that is happening. And to me one of the most important aspects of the evening was a discussion of clear action steps we can, and should take if we support these positions (the best way to communicate with your congressman, etc.) One of Paul's best qualities is that he is a very good listener. Look forward to future events. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 10619 Registered: 5-2001 |
Norman Robbins and Paul Schroeder did a fair dinkum job (as we Aussies say) of coming up with an alternative to the present policies on the Iraq war. These people are not kooks. They are not Cindy. They are inteligent educated people who want to offer a responsible alternative. They are looking for a non-partisan approach to ending the war. I only hope that their work isn't taken over by the extreme left partisans as represented by Paul Surovell and South Mountain Peace Action. A year ago they were touting Cindy Sheehan. God only knows who they will be touting next year. | ||
| Edufacts Citizen Username: Edufacts Post Number: 4 Registered: 8-2005 |
Actually, Cindy Sheehan wasn't that far left a year ago. She was saying she wanted to meet with Bush for an explanation of her son's death, and she wanted the USA to get out of Iraq. The swing farther to the left happened AFTER she got so much initial media attention. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 10626 Registered: 5-2001 |
My post came off harsher than I meant it to. I actually like Paul Surovell and agree with him a fair amount of the time, even if his car has been modified so it can't make right turns. However, I think Cindy Sheehan made her move to the extreme left after she fell into the hands of the far left wing of the Democratic party and I hope that the Schroeder/Palmers don't make the same mistake. | ||
| Eats Shoots & Leaves Citizen Username: Mfpark Post Number: 3015 Registered: 9-2001 |
Cindy Sheehan did not fall into anyone's hands--she is not the victim of a nefarious left wing strategy, nor was she kidnapped by Martians and hijacked to a left wing la-la-land. Anymore than George HW Bush was kidnapped by the right wing supply siders when he went from calling it smoke and mirrors to drinking the Laffer Kool-Aid. Sheehan chose her positions, presumably after some deliberation. Perhaps she decided to go for the glory, or perhaps her viewpoint radicalized when she learned more about the world. Who knows for sure. But I do know that it was her choice, and she was not brainwashed. And, further, just because what she says may be radical or leftist does not necessarily make it wrong. Remember, the left wing was the first to criticize the way the Viet Nam War was being fought, and history proved them right (pun intended) even if their methods may have been over the top. | ||
| SoOrLady Citizen Username: Soorlady Post Number: 2978 Registered: 9-2003 |
Rest assured BobK, the Shroeder/Palmers will not "make the same mistake" as Ms. Sheehan. They are intelligent, educated, reasoned people. They have a purpose - promoting a plan with measurable benchmarks for complete troop withdrawal from Iraq. They will use the media to promote their agenda and not vice versa (as happened with Ms. Sheehan). | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 10628 Registered: 5-2001 |
ESL, you may be correct, but at this point I am so sick and tired of wing nuts from both sides I tend to react rather strongly. | ||
| Eats Shoots & Leaves Citizen Username: Mfpark Post Number: 3018 Registered: 9-2001 |
I hear you--I try to look past the messenger to the message. On both sides of the aisle. | ||
| Paul Surovell Supporter Username: Paulsurovell Post Number: 525 Registered: 2-2003 |
For those expressing concern that Wednesday's forum was set up to bash the Administration, please consider the following: (1) President Bush's National Strategy for Victory was given 10 minutes of presentation time, the same amount as Paul Schroeder's proposal, and twice as much as any of the other 4 proposal categories. (2) The White House was invited to send a representative to present their position and to be part of the panel. Here is my email exchange with the White House Liaison: (3) Audience members were giving the opportunity to comment and/or ask questions. If you wanted to advocate the Administration position you should have come and expressed your opinion. It would have been welcome. If you doubt this, speak to anyone who was at our November 7th meeting on the Israeli-Palestinian peace process. | ||
| Southerner Citizen Username: Southerner Post Number: 651 Registered: 2-2004 |
Paul, That is such a typical lib proposition. And then of course you must post it for all to see. Please. No one buys it. Hey, I got a Christmas card from the White House. I guess they really do like me. Luckily your group is insignificant. But I'm sure you felt real good driving home. ESL, I agree with most of your post. I do discuss and inform others. I just don't feel the need to pat myself on the back everytime I do this. Let's agree that this "Peace" group has an agenda. Also, I don't need to hold so called forums because my philosophy is controlling the government. And if Paul's group is so effective why do the views they espouse continue to get waxed every election cycle? I respect Paul's attempt to push his governmental philosophy but to believe his group wants an honest discourse is laughable. Why do you think he posted the invitation and reply to the White House? Because most of you libs would think how wonderful he was for wanting to explore both sides. I've seen enough snake oil sold to know when it's being peddled. | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 4341 Registered: 5-2001 |
Of course the "typical con proposition" is to have a screened audience that signs loyalty oaths. Like the old joke from 2000, the Republican ticket is balanced because it has people from two different oil companies. Gee, I wonder if that kind of monoculture thinking is why everything they do is such a screaming clusterf**k. Winning elections is peachy -- but then what? Tax cuts didn't prevent 9/11, you've got to be able to do more tricks than that one. | ||
| Eats Shoots & Leaves Citizen Username: Mfpark Post Number: 3020 Registered: 9-2001 |
You know, Southerner, you are so absolutely, positively, completely wrong about Paul that I am willing to pay YOUR travel expenses to come up here and meet Paul face to face, and sit with the others who are in SMPA, and speak your piece at a forum in town of your choosing. I think you will come away with a different appreciation for his honesty and integrity. You will never agree with him, but you will find him very agreeable. Let me reiterate: SMPA does have a specific viewpoint, but they also have the intellectual honesty and faith in what they believe to encourage a free discussion of alternative views AT THEIR OWN FORUM! I admire this immensely, and have seen Paul and others actually modify their positions because of what they have learned from others with whom they have had debates. I don't know Paul really well, but what I do know has shown him to be both dogged in his views and simultaneously incredibly open to listening to anyone else's point of view. In fact, he goes out of his way to encourage opposing viewpoints as part of an open and honest dialogue--something that probably torques off others on the left. Finally, as to you not having to hold forums to air your views because they are the views of the current governing party, that is such a cop out. The whole basis of democracy, and of leadership, is continuously reaching out to the people to convince them of your position, and to build a general consensus in society. Leaders must continously go back to the people from whom they derive their power and listen to them, engage them, or else lose touch with them. Hiding behind staged events with a hand-picked audience or never leaving the tight circle of advisors leads to a fundamental disconnect with the people--and I think Bush is finding this out as the GOP is shrinking from his side in the face of the 2006 midterm elections. It is just as critical for people with your viewpoints to get out and make the case as it is for people who disagree to air their grievances. That is how democracy works best. Jefferson said that the tree of liberty must be watered by the blood of revolution every generation, a metaphorical way of saying that democracy works best when everyone has a fighting stake in participating in it. | ||
| sbenois Supporter Username: Sbenois Post Number: 14559 Registered: 10-2001  |
Were any of the invited speakers reimbursed for travel expenses? | ||
| Paul Surovell Supporter Username: Paulsurovell Post Number: 526 Registered: 2-2003 |
Sbenois, We invited all members of Congress who authored the proposals, including Senator John Warner and Rep. Henry Hyde. Only one, as I recall, asked about travel expenses. We responded, as we did to the White House, that we could not provide them. All of the Congressional authors declined our invitation, not because of the cost, but because votes were scheduled on February 8th. | ||
| Paul Surovell Supporter Username: Paulsurovell Post Number: 527 Registered: 2-2003 |
Southerner, Please clarify what part of my post is a "lib position." |
