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Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 771
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 3, 2006 - 5:59 pm: | 
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It's not a flip flop if those of use who voted for him knew what was behind the wink and smile. He got many of you fence riding libs to vote for him. All of us conservatives knew the truth.
Yeah, I know, many of you are shocked that politics is a dirty game. And most of you live in New Jersey! |
Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 840
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 3, 2006 - 6:15 pm: |
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All of us conservatives knew the truth.
That he was a big-spending, government-swelling, nation-builder? Yeah, you "conservatives" made a great choice! |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 5285
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 3, 2006 - 6:33 pm: |
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Your attempt at Bush going back on his 'nation-building' argument isn't as spot on as you think. Bush has only tried to 'build nations' where he's gone to war. He's not taken the mission of feeding people because of TV images like Bush 41 did which THEN morphed into 'nation building' under Clinton and emboldened Osama Bin Laden when we turned tail. He's not engaged in 'nation-building' as it's understood which is what Clinton tried to do in Bosnia and Kosovo when it was bloody well Europe's problem to fix (and an 'illegal war' in the case of Kosovo if the anti-Bush thinking it at all consistent).
Bush has only undertaken 'nation building' in the response after a war was waged -- a war that he and many others felt was in the national interests of the US. Unless your preferred method of a war is to level a place and then leave immediately afterwards. |
kenney
Citizen
Username: Kenney
Post Number: 752
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 3, 2006 - 6:54 pm: |
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the world is becoming a better place every day because of our efforts in Iraq, but i am not surprised to see so many on this board hoping and cheering for failure.
Don't worry, the adults will continue to make your world better while you play with yourselves and copy/paste howard dean's talking points. |
Grrrrrrrrrrr
Citizen
Username: Oldsctls67
Post Number: 324
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, March 3, 2006 - 7:15 pm: |
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I agree with CMonty..we're there, how/why we're there is a topic of great debate, but we're still there nonetheless. I personally need to hear more about our exit strategy. It's a big steaming pile of dung right now, but I still hold out hope that the situation can be rectified... |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 774
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 3, 2006 - 7:32 pm: |
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Grrrrrrr,
There is no exit strategy because no one can predict the future. You're an intelligent poster. Why don't you leave these non-meaning questions to the wacky leftists on this board. Here's my exit strategy answer - our military will leave when ordered by the Commander in Chief. And we all know this current Commander in Chief isn't going to be issuing those orders because he actually believes in the mission. |
Grrrrrrrrrrr
Citizen
Username: Oldsctls67
Post Number: 326
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, March 3, 2006 - 7:54 pm: |
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I disagree...a clear exit strategy is key to any successful operation. It's obvious we'll pull out as the region begins to stabilize, but IMHO a clear-cut plan to do so could only help to speed up this stabilization. I consider that idea to be pragmatic, not wacky or leftist. Leftist and pragmatic are often 2 different things. |
Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 841
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 3, 2006 - 9:45 pm: |
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Leftist and pragmatic are often 2 different things.
Not that often. |
Grrrrrrrrrrr
Citizen
Username: Oldsctls67
Post Number: 327
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, March 3, 2006 - 10:00 pm: |
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This coming from the guy who thinks the great Right Wing conspiracy had Clinton impeached... |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 775
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 3, 2006 - 10:08 pm: |
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I hear you, but the goal is to win not how we handle the last two minutes. Since we are no where near the 4th quarter how do we know what our strategy will be? Maybe we bomb the heck out of everything and leave. Maybe they throw us a good bye celebratory parade and we leave. Maybe Hillary wins and we simply leave. Maybe we open up a big ole base and stay forever. The point is, victory is the only strategy. To set a timetable gives the terrorists the will to outlast. |
Paul Surovell
Supporter
Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 568
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 4, 2006 - 7:10 am: |
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The term "Nation Building" is a euphemism that masks the motivation and purpose of the invasion and occupation of Iraq -- to establish a client state that will acquiesce to US political and economic interests as defined by neocon ideology.
This objective remains fully in place. It is articulated in the President's "National Strategy for Victory" which defines "Victory" as, among other things:
Quote:An Iraq that is a partner in the global war on terror and the fight against the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, integrated into the international community, an engine for regional economic growth, and proving the fruits of democratic governance to the region.
http://www.beaboutpeace.com/archives/2005/12/post_18.html
And of course the President's strategy is to keep US forces in Iraq until "Victory" is achieved.
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Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 776
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 4, 2006 - 8:18 am: |
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Paul we agree on this. Of course, I like the premise but something tells me you don't. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 5286
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 4, 2006 - 8:59 am: |
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Paul -- it's not about acquiescing to the US. They don't even need to be our ally -- like France for example. They're allowed to be a governmental basket case if they choose -- like Italy. Iraq just won't be allowed to threaten or gives active aid to those who would threaten the US or anyone else militarily. |
Paul Surovell
Supporter
Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 570
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 4, 2006 - 9:06 am: |
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Southerner,
I subscribe to the propositions that:
(a) America should not start wars and should not engage in military action except as provided under the United Nations Charter, which is a treaty to which we are a signatory.
(b) America should not seek to impose its will by military force on other countries
which is why I opposed the war before it started and why I oppose the President's National Strategy for Victory which is a prescription for permanent occupation.
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The SLK Effect
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 959
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 4, 2006 - 9:21 am: |
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Paul,
Points taken, but can you least acknowledge that the US is doing the job the UN has failed to do again and again and again?
If you don't want our country getting involved in such matters, why don't you and your crew go down to the UN and protest, demanding they pick up the slack?
When are you going to start calling out the UN on their "miserable failures?"
-SLK |
Grrrrrrrrrrr
Citizen
Username: Oldsctls67
Post Number: 328
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, March 4, 2006 - 9:26 am: |
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Right on SLK...I almost postd the same thing before. THe United States is the vanguard of Democracy, not the UN. Somethin needs doin, we're the ones that gotta go in and do it... |
The SLK Effect
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 962
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 4, 2006 - 9:44 am: |
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Grrrrrr-
Yeah, these people get all giddy over the prosecution of US congressional republicans involved in scandals but they "overlook" the biggest scandal in world history....
and no it is not the Sex Pistols take over of rock roll...oh wait...that was a Swindle...
-SLK
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tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4113
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 4, 2006 - 9:51 am: |
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The problem with Iraq is that I am hard-pressed to think of cases where the invading forces have prevailed under the circumstances we now face.
The British did in Malaysia in the 50's, but the circumstances were different.
The USSR suppressed some rebellions in the 1930's through the 1950's, but they used some methods that are not acceptable. |
kendalbill
Citizen
Username: Kendalbill
Post Number: 136
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, March 4, 2006 - 9:59 am: |
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SLK- if I protest that the UN should pick up the slack, will you permit US troops to be under the commend of a foreign General? |
Paul Surovell
Supporter
Username: Paulsurovell
Post Number: 572
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 4, 2006 - 10:20 am: |
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SLK,
South Mountain Peace Action circulated at petition last year calling for an international solution in Iraq, led by the United Nations. It was signed by over 1,300 local residents and presented to both Congressmen and Senators.
In our presentations we mentioned that our petition was very similar to the Woolsey Resolution, which calls for an international peacekeeping force to replace US troops in Iraq.
Congressman Payne mentioned our petitions in a House floor debate on an amendment proposed by Rep. Woolsey and Senator Lautenberg praised the petition on the floor of the Senate (both events on our website www.BeAboutPeace.com)
In our February 8th forum, "A Responsible Withdrawal From Iraq," one category presented was the "International Solution" of which the Woolsey Resolution is the leading one. All proposals, including the President's National Strategy for Victory, listed on the website.
South Mountain Peace Action and Families of the Fallen for Change will issue a report on the Forum with our conclusions, at the evening portion of our Be About Peace Day event on March 18th, where we'll re-dedicate the peace memorial at Ethical Culture Society to Augie Schroeder.
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Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 778
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 4, 2006 - 3:00 pm: |
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tjohn,
Your scenario is wrong. We did not invade Iraq because we wanted their land or a route to somewhere. Most invasions have been for this purpose. Our sole purpose is to install a government that will be on our side when we need them. These needs are military bases, fly over privileges, a government willing to give us intel. If we were in this war to turn Iraq into the 51st state then I'd agree with you that we are doomed. At this point we now have a nice stronghold in the middle east and I guarantee we have the attention of the rest of the despots. Instead of just Israel they now have to keep an eye on us.
I wish we lived in a perfect little world like Paul wants where all people are free to elect their leaders but we don't. If we have to rely on and bankroll a military general like Pervez then that is what we have to do. As for the UN everyone knows its a joke. Only the weak countries stand behind the UN because that is all they have. The UN really doesn't matter any way because the big powers (U.S., China, Russia, North Korea) basically do whatever they want anyway. |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4114
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 4, 2006 - 3:10 pm: |
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Southerner,
Why we invaded doesn't really matter. The question is whether we can impose our vision on a population that has other ideas.
How you can characterize Iraq as a nice stronghold is quite beyond me given that we have 130K troops tied down just to keep the place from disintegrating. |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 780
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 4, 2006 - 3:19 pm: |
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See,
We just disagree. You've obviously been watching way too much network news. Iraq won't disintegrate if we left. Would they have problems? Sure. Is Pakistan disintegrating? They have an unpopular leader and we aren't there but they are far from disintegrating.
As for you first statement, I agree why we invaded doesn't matter. However, we are not trying to impose our vision on a population. We are trying to create a strong enough government that will be friendly towards us. The population probably won't ever have our vision but that isn't our goal. Sure, Bush used some great sounding rhetoric at the beginning with visions of granduer about being greeted as liberators but that didn't happen and doesn't really have to. All we need is a strong enough government to let us do what we have to do in the future. Just like Pakistan allows us to do. Unfortunately, what the citizens want isn't really that important 1n those countries. Just ask the women. |
Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 842
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 5, 2006 - 2:14 pm: |
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If we have to rely on and bankroll a military general like Pervez then that is what we have to do.
And why not? It worked great in Iraq...until we decided it didn't. |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4116
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 5, 2006 - 2:27 pm: |
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and in Iran until it didn't |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 784
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 5, 2006 - 6:40 pm: |
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Exactly. And when Pervez changes course or is overthrown then we will address the situation in Pakistan again. It's the way of the world. I wish we could sit back and do nothing but I am not willing to take that risk, and I don't even live in NYC or DC. I guarantee when a nuke goes off in Times Square you guys will be on board with military action real quick. Then, I'm sure a few years later you will Monday morning quarterback. |
Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 843
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 5, 2006 - 7:20 pm: |
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I guarantee when a nuke goes off in Times Square you guys will be on board with military action real quick.
When a nuke goes off in Times Square, I'll be asking why we spent so much time screwing around in Iraq, creating new threats instead of addressing existing ones. |
The SLK Effect
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 983
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, March 5, 2006 - 11:00 pm: |
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Madden 11-
I really want you to think hard about this one question ok? Can you name any new US threats since 9/10/01?
It seems like the same people that hated us on 9/10/01 are the same people that hate us now. What has changed?
-SLK |
Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 844
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 10:01 am: |
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It seems like the same people that hated us on 9/10/01 are the same people that hate us now. What has changed?
What a simplistic view of the world. So you think that because "terrorism" was a threat pre-9/11 and "terrorism" is still a threat...nothing has changed? These things don't have levels or degrees associated with them? Here's an analogy for you to think hard about:
Suppose you and your neighbor have a dispute over your property line...like who is supposed to shovel which part of the sidewalk. Then you shoot and kill his wife. By your definition, you had a conflict before, you have a conflict now...what's the difference?
And by the way, if you really do think that nothing has changed since 9/10, it doesn't say much for the President's war on terror, does it? |
joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 150
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 4:57 pm: |
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What has changed is that some of use see the threat.
HILLSBOROUGH, N.C. -- A suspect who is accused of hitting students with a sport utility vehicle at the University of North Carolina made his first court appearance Monday.
Mohammed Taheri-azar, a 2005 UNC-Chapel Hill graduate, smiled and waved before his hearing Monday. Taheri-azar told the courtroom that he was "thankful for the opportunity to spread the will of Allah."
As he left court, Taheri-azar told reporters, "the truth is my lawyer." When asked if he was trying to kill people, he said yes.
Taheri-azar was appointed a public defender in court. A young woman believed to be Taheri-azar's sister did not comment on the case as she left to get into her car.
Also on Monday, authorities released the 911 call that Taheri-azar made shortly after Friday's incident.
In the call, he tells the 911 operator that the police could go and pick him up at the corner of Hillview and Plant roads, where he is waiting outside the vehicle.
"You can come arrest me," Taheri-azar said.
He also tells the operator that he thinks he may have hit 15 people and that his reason for doing so was to "punish the government of the United States for [its] actions around the world." He goes on to say that more of why he did it was in a letter on his bed inside his apartment. |
joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 151
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 5:18 pm: |
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CHAPEL HILL, N.C. — Protests are planned for Monday in the same area of campus at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill where, authorities said, a former student plowed a sport utility vehicle into nine people Friday afternoon.
The College Republicans, Americans for an Informed Democracy and the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies are sponsoring the event, scheduled for 11 a.m. until 1 p.m. Monday in “The Pit,” a central area of the UNC-Chapel Hill campus. The event is open to the public and free of charge.
Police said Mohammad Taheri-azar, a 2005 UNC-Chapel Hill graduate, admits he acted to “avenge the death of Muslims around the world.” UNC police and local authorities, however, say they have not taken a stance on that interpretation, but are simply repeating what the suspect has told them.
UNC-Chapel Hill student leaders said that Monday’s protest is aimed at the reluctance of the university to label Friday’s incident as an act of terrorism. “This is innocent people being attacked by an SUV, driven by a man who was doing it for retaliation for treatment of Muslims around the world,” said Jillian Bandes, with the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. “To me, that spells terrorism.”
Taheri-azar, who is currently in Raleigh’s Central Prison under a $5.5 million bond, is charged with nine counts of attempted first-degree murder and nine counts of assault with a deadly weapon inflicting serious injury with intent to kill. ...
But were Taheri-azar’s alleged actions acts of terrorism?
“I think (what Taheri-azar did) is extreme,” said Dan VanAtta, a friend of the suspect. “But then again, I don’t know what was going through his head. … Mohammed was a good guy.”
David Schanzer, the director of the Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security at Duke University and UNC-Chapel Hill, said it is fine for students to voice their dismay, but that they should be cautious. “(They should) understand the roots of it and understand the strategies for addressing it in a constructive way,” Schanzer said.
He takes the same position as officials at the Islamic Center of Raleigh...
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