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Paul Surovell
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Username: Paulsurovell

Post Number: 564
Registered: 2-2003
Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 12:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1075


Quote:

Released: February 28, 2006

U.S. Troops in Iraq: 72% Say End War in 2006

Le Moyne College/Zogby Poll shows just one in five troops want to heed Bush call to stay “as long as they are needed”
While 58% say mission is clear, 42% say U.S. role is hazy
Plurality believes Iraqi insurgents are mostly homegrown
Almost 90% think war is retaliation for Saddam’s role in 9/11, most don’t blame Iraqi public for insurgent attacks
Majority of troops oppose use of harsh prisoner interrogation
Plurality of troops pleased with their armor and equipment
An overwhelming majority of 72% of American troops serving in Iraq think the U.S. should exit the country within the next year, and nearly one in four say the troops should leave immediately, a new Le Moyne College/Zogby International survey shows.

The poll, conducted in conjunction with Le Moyne College’s Center for Peace and Global Studies, showed that 29% of the respondents, serving in various branches of the armed forces, said the U.S. should leave Iraq “immediately,” while another 22% said they should leave in the next six months. Another 21% said troops should be out between six and 12 months, while 23% said they should stay “as long as they are needed.”

Different branches had quite different sentiments on the question, the poll shows. While 89% of reserves and 82% of those in the National Guard said the U.S. should leave Iraq within a year, 58% of Marines think so. Seven in ten of those in the regular Army thought the U.S. should leave Iraq in the next year. Moreover, about three-quarters of those in National Guard and Reserve units favor withdrawal within six months, just 15% of Marines felt that way. About half of those in the regular Army favored withdrawal from Iraq in the next six months.

The troops have drawn different conclusions about fellow citizens back home. Asked why they think some Americans favor rapid U.S. troop withdrawal from Iraq, 37% of troops serving there said those Americans are unpatriotic, while 20% believe people back home don’t believe a continued occupation will work. Another 16% said they believe those favoring a quick withdrawal do so because they oppose the use of the military in a pre-emptive war, while 15% said they do not believe those Americans understand the need for the U.S. troops in Iraq.

The wide-ranging poll also shows that 58% of those serving in country say the U.S. mission in Iraq is clear in their minds, while 42% said it is either somewhat or very unclear to them, that they have no understanding of it at all, or are unsure. While 85% said the U.S. mission is mainly “to retaliate for Saddam’s role in the 9-11 attacks,” 77% said they also believe the main or a major reason for the war was “to stop Saddam from protecting al Qaeda in Iraq.”

“Ninety-three percent said that removing weapons of mass destruction is not a reason for U.S. troops being there,” said Pollster John Zogby, President and CEO of Zogby International. “Instead, that initial rationale went by the wayside and, in the minds of 68% of the troops, the real mission became to remove Saddam Hussein.” Just 24% said that “establishing a democracy that can be a model for the Arab World" was the main or a major reason for the war. Only small percentages see the mission there as securing oil supplies (11%) or to provide long-term bases for US troops in the region (6%).

The continuing insurgent attacks have not turned U.S. troops against the Iraqi population, the survey shows. More than 80% said they did not hold a negative view of Iraqis because of those attacks. About two in five see the insurgency as being comprised of discontented Sunnis with very few non-Iraqi helpers. “There appears to be confusion on this,” Zogby said. But, he noted, less than a third think that if non-Iraqi terrorists could be prevented from crossing the border into Iraq, the insurgency would end. A majority of troops (53%) said the U.S. should double both the number of troops and bombing missions in order to control the insurgency.

The survey shows that most U.S. military personnel in-country have a clear sense of right and wrong when it comes to using banned weapons against the enemy, and in interrogation of prisoners. Four in five said they oppose the use of such internationally banned weapons as napalm and white phosphorous. And, even as more photos of prisoner abuse in Iraq surface around the world, 55% said it is not appropriate or standard military conduct to use harsh and threatening methods against insurgent prisoners in order to gain information of military value.

Three quarters of the troops had served multiple tours and had a longer exposure to the conflict: 26% were on their first tour of duty, 45% were on their second tour, and 29% were in Iraq for a third time or more.

A majority of the troops serving in Iraq said they were satisfied with the war provisions from Washington. Just 30% of troops said they think the Department of Defense has failed to provide adequate troop protections, such as body armor, munitions, and armor plating for vehicles like HumVees. Only 35% said basic civil infrastructure in Iraq, including roads, electricity, water service, and health care, has not improved over the past year. Three of every four were male respondents, with 63% under the age of 30.

The survey included 944 military respondents interviewed at several undisclosed locations throughout Iraq. The names of the specific locations and specific personnel who conducted the survey are being withheld for security purposes. Surveys were conducted face-to-face using random sampling techniques. The margin of error for the survey, conducted Jan. 18 through Feb. 14, 2006, is +/- 3.3 percentage points.



(2/28/2006)

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Scrotis Lo Knows
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Username: Scrotisloknows

Post Number: 891
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 1:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yep 72% of 944 (out of 160,000 troops) tells the whole story. Got to love them "polls".

-SLK
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themp
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Username: Themp

Post Number: 2607
Registered: 12-2001


Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 1:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, polls! Silly libs, wrong again.

The truth is our troops LOVE being over there.
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Robert Livingston
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Username: Rob_livingston

Post Number: 1603
Registered: 7-2004


Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 1:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Scrotis Lo Knows: Just wondering...if you're such a big fan of the war, and clearly the troops are wrong in their assessment to not stay indefinitely, why not enlist? You're not a coward, are you?
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Bob K
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Post Number: 10839
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Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 1:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Those margins of error don't mean anything!!!

Seriously, this pretty much confirms what I have heard from sons and daughters of friends who are serving over there, regulars and reserves and officers and enlisted.
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Hoops
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Username: Hoops

Post Number: 843
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Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 1:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I havent met one soldier, either non commissioned or officer who is FOR being there. - and yes I have spoken to a handful.

We do not get the facts about what our 'soldiers' think.
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Joe
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Username: Gonets

Post Number: 1167
Registered: 2-2004
Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 2:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm surprised the military would allow the soldiers to take this poll. I don't see anything wrong with it, I just think it's not the sort of thing the brass would want to have happen, unless they expected different results.
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Rastro
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Username: Rastro

Post Number: 2442
Registered: 5-2004


Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 2:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

SLK, do you know what a Poll is? The whole point is to take a representative sample. Or do you simply not believe in polls of any kind? Because many polls in the US take a representative sample of about 1,000, and use that to determine national sentiment for over 280 million Americans (a few orders of magnitude more than the soldiers being represented in this poll).

I do find a few things rather telling:

"Almost 90% think war is retaliation for Saddam’s role in 9/11"

"Asked why they think some Americans favor rapid U.S. troop withdrawal from Iraq, 37% of troops serving there said those Americans are unpatriotic"
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themp
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Post Number: 2609
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Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 2:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

War supporters generall stick with paintball:

http://tbogg.blogspot.com/2006/02/dilettantes-ball-medic-medic-skippys.html



I've spent 17 months in Iraq, working for the CPA in 03-04 and on reconstruction contracts for a couple of tours since. I probably am a "liberal" by your definition, and a retired reserve officer.

I'm in Iraq now, Green Zone Baghdad. I was listening to mortar fire yesterday afternoon. They (Sunnis? Ba'athists? someone else?) were shelling the neighborhood of one of my Iraqi co-workers, I later learned. I'm waiting for him to come into work now, he's usually very early.

Not to mention whether we have to worry how, if the really hits the fan here, we are going to get out. The helicopter-off-of-the-roof-of-the-embassy theme is a recurrent mordant joke here.

Of course, this is the fruit of this undermanned and underresourced war, always on the razor's edge of ruin, while Rumsfeld and Bush spout their happy horseshit. The thing is, it could have gone so much better with competent people in charge who followed the Weinberger and Powell doctrines, rather than the marginal and disorganized effort this has been from the beginning. I've always said one of the problems with this is that it is run by people whose philosophy is anti-goverment, and it is a situation where government is needed. They are not like the New Dealers who helped rebuild Europe and Japan. But hey, "stuff happens."

Yes, I know that you might agree with me on that, but why not place the blame where it lies, instead of talking about how civil war might be a good thing.

The idea that some people might find your schadenfreude about an incipient civil war "insult[ing] or inflam[ing]" does not seem to occur to you.

You, apparently a military age male, follow that post with one talking about how much fun paintball is. Yes, shooting as a game, your fun war metaphor.

I suggest you apply for a direct commission in Army Reserve Civil Affairs, they need people desperately. You might also be able to get a job with a contractor on one of the reconstruction projects, maybe the new Regional Reconstruction Teams. Then you might learn that this is in earnest, not some parlor word game.
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Scrotis Lo Knows
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Username: Scrotisloknows

Post Number: 893
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 3:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Robert-

Stop being witty for once and THINK. I am not a big fan of wars or polls. I never said the troops were wrong, but you are expecting me to sum up the entire 160k troop sentiment based on 944 surveyed?

By the way, I did try to join the marines when I was 20 but they shut me down due to my hearing impairment.

I am willing to bet my last dime that is hell of alot more then you have ever done.

-SLK
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Nohero
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Post Number: 5105
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Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 3:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"... but you are expecting me to sum up the entire 160k troop sentiment based on 944 surveyed?"
It's what Pascal would do (didn't he help to invent probability and statistics?).
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Robert Livingston
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Username: Rob_livingston

Post Number: 1605
Registered: 7-2004


Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 3:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let's look past the poll numbers you don't buy...So then you agree with the troops' assessment? Is that correct? You didn't say they were wrong, so they're right? Or do you just not agree, and they should be forced to stay in Iraq and be mediators in the brewing Civil War? Is that a good idea?

Surely there is something you can contribute to the war effort, Scrotis Lo Knows. Halliburton needs men.
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steel
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Username: Steel

Post Number: 972
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Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 3:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I didn't find much of anything particularly surprising with most of the results.

It does makes sense to me that more of the reserves and guard are more desirous to "go home" than the marines and regular army. I don't suspect that when most of those guys signed-on that they really expected to be dragged away from home for a thing like this, (particularly for multiple tours), though of course they must have accepted the possibility.

-In that regard I find it interesting that overall the majority (72%) of troops feel "we" should go home in 2006 while at the same time a majority of (53%) say that the U.S. should double both the number of troops and bombing missions in order to control the insurgency. -Does that mean (?) double the troops but just, ya know, not ME cuz I've had plenty enough and want to come home. -Seems a very natural human reaction.

also, like Rastro, I noticed the rather disturbing;
"Almost 90% think war is retaliation for Saddam’s role in 9/11"
Is that their personally held belief or simply their perception of what has become the public perception foisted upon us be you-know-who?

very curious when weighed against the following;
"no credible evidence" that Iraq cooperated with al-Qaida in the plot against the United States.
-The 9/11 Commission

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themp
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Post Number: 2610
Registered: 12-2001


Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 3:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"By the way, I did try to join the marines when I was 20 but they shut me down due to my hearing impairment."

He can't hear truth.
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Dave
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Username: Dave

Post Number: 8788
Registered: 4-1997


Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 3:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Quote:

"... but you are expecting me to sum up the entire 160k troop sentiment based on 944 surveyed?"




For a confidence level of 99% with a +/- interval of 5% you would only need a sample of 663 respondents for a population of 160,000.
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themp
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Post Number: 2613
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Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 4:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dave just hit it out of the park.
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Southerner
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Username: Southerner

Post Number: 744
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Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 7:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Another thread I love. More liberal whining! Well, let me add my two cents. I have talked at length with all 160,000 troops and they all agree that Jerry should have won.
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Paul Surovell
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Post Number: 565
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Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 10:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

President Bush has often said his decisions on Iraq follow the advice of the military in Iraq, and not the politicians in Washington.

I doubt, in light of this poll, that we will ever hear him say that again.

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Rastro
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Username: Rastro

Post Number: 2458
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Posted on Wednesday, March 1, 2006 - 12:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

SOutherner, what a crock. Anyone who knows anything about the troops knows they all favor Tom. Jerry was a weasel-mouse.
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Scrotis Lo Knows
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Username: Scrotisloknows

Post Number: 904
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 1, 2006 - 12:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dave-

Whatever and polls have always been correct in the past.....until I hear from EVERY troop in Iraq then we will talk.

-SLK
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Robert Livingston
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Username: Rob_livingston

Post Number: 1617
Registered: 7-2004


Posted on Wednesday, March 1, 2006 - 12:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Scrotis Lo Knows: What a cop out. You're not even trying.

You know what's worse than an unabashed Bush apologist? An unabashed Bush apologist who denies being an unabashed Bush apologist.
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Robert Livingston
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Username: Rob_livingston

Post Number: 1620
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Posted on Wednesday, March 1, 2006 - 2:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Which reminds me, a poll Scrotis Lo Knows most certainly beleives in:

From the Colbert Report:

"George Bush: Great president? Or the greatest president?"
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bettyd
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Username: Badjtdso

Post Number: 106
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 1, 2006 - 2:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would venture to say that the brass doesn't want to be there either. I don't have any poll numbers and I haven't spoken with any officers over there, so this is just my opinion.

The American military is very adept at taking an objective by force and holding it. That is what it is trained to do. It is not meant to be goodwill ambassadors for democracy or a police force (it can function in those capacities after a defined enemy is clearly defeated and unconditionally surrenders, a la Japan and Germany after WWII, when the rest of the world was in on helping in the aftermath. Not so in Iraq).

It is also not very good at training the military of other countries and getting them ready (didn't we believe South Vietnam was ready to take over? That worked out well).

Who is the enemy over there? Terrorists from foreign countries? Former Sadaam loyalists?
Iraqis that don't want us there and feel we are occupying their country? Sunnis? Shiites? All of the above? We don't even know who the insurgents are. The latest description is they are "the avowed enemies of the legitimate government of Iraq," according to Rummy. He must be the only one who believes Iraq has a functioning legitimate government. Is there a legitmate government in Iraq? I guess it's the "coalition" of Sunni, Shiite and Kurd leaders who were recently elected but whose constituents are at each other's throats and have different agendas.

By the way, the number of Iraqi battalions ready to take the fight to the "enemy" (whoever that may be and is still unknown three years into the war) has gone from one to zero.

I can't believe we have put our military men and women in this situation. In a country that posed no threat and had nothing to do with 9/11.
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Southerner
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Username: Southerner

Post Number: 760
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Posted on Wednesday, March 1, 2006 - 10:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bush did it just to get under your skin Betty. And I think it worked!! I actually agree with my liberal friends. I don't see any way Bush wins re-election in '08. His poll numbers are tanking or haven't you heard.
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Scrotis Lo Knows
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Username: Scrotisloknows

Post Number: 909
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Thursday, March 2, 2006 - 8:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The all Witty RL,

Your logic is sure loopy. What does being a Bush Apologist (which by the way I am not) have to do with me not trusting polls.

Try looking at the big picture one of these days, it will do you some good.

-SLK
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Robert Livingston
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Username: Rob_livingston

Post Number: 1627
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Posted on Thursday, March 2, 2006 - 9:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My logic is loopy? You won't be satisfied of a group's opinion unless there's a 100 percent participation rate! Talk about ignoring the big picture!

As for being a Bush apologist, you seem to conveniently disregard the polls that don't paint Bush in all his saintly glory.
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Scrotis Lo Knows
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Username: Scrotisloknows

Post Number: 915
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Posted on Thursday, March 2, 2006 - 9:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

RL,

And you don't drool over polls that portrays Dubya in a bad light?


Newsflash: I do not like ANY polls.

My wife, a liberal Social Worker and who works with alot of numbers, always reminds me you can make data look anyway you damn well please. I as an accountant (one of many functions) also know this all too well...

-SLK
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Robert Livingston
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Username: Rob_livingston

Post Number: 1628
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Posted on Thursday, March 2, 2006 - 9:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's true, Scrotis. You can make up statistics for anything, 52% of the population knows that.

I don't drool over Bush's bad polls. For one, I wish they were higher because that would indicate he was doing a better job. At least the people who voted for him would be satisfied (aside from the non-thinkers on this site who truly believe his don't stink). And "B," I don't drool over them anymore because they are so freakin' common and predictable.

I will say though that it's very, very hard to make Bush's poll numbers look any differently than what they say: that he is among the least liked president in the history of the U.S.

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Scrotis Lo Knows
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Username: Scrotisloknows

Post Number: 920
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Posted on Thursday, March 2, 2006 - 10:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

RL,

I think Guy said leadership is not a popularity contest and it is true...history will speak after we are long gone.

In some ways, just for the fact that he is so disliked tells me he is doing something right...

-SLK
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Robert Livingston
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Username: Rob_livingston

Post Number: 1631
Registered: 7-2004


Posted on Thursday, March 2, 2006 - 10:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"In some ways, just for the fact that he is so disliked tells me he is doing something right..."

Wow. I don't even know where to begin with that statement...
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Nohero
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Username: Nohero

Post Number: 5109
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Posted on Thursday, March 2, 2006 - 10:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"In some ways, just for the fact that he is so disliked tells me he is doing something right..."

But, to know if he's disliked, you'd have to use a poll.

But, you don't believe in polls.

So, you don't believe that he's doing something right?

Arghhh! My head's about to explode!!!
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Robert Livingston
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Username: Rob_livingston

Post Number: 1632
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Posted on Thursday, March 2, 2006 - 10:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

But Scrotis isn't an unabashed Bush apologist or anything...
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Scrotis Lo Knows
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Username: Scrotisloknows

Post Number: 923
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Posted on Thursday, March 2, 2006 - 10:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nohero-

If yout think polls are the only way to measure something then you are truly a sad case...

-SLK
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Nohero
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Post Number: 5110
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Posted on Thursday, March 2, 2006 - 11:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"If you think polls are the only way to measure something then you are truly a sad case..."
Now, obviously, I didn't say that.

If you want a serious response, then I don't think you can dismiss all polling (or all statistics for that matter) out of hand, just because they can be manipulated.

It's just as important to consider the methodology. If one thinks the poll was not random, or that the questions were confusing, misleading or vague, that's a perfectly legitimate criticism. But, nobody seems to have taken issue with any of those in this thread.

If you don't want a serious response, then I'll reply in the immortal words of Sgt. Hulka: "Lighten' up, Francis."
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Paul Surovell
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Post Number: 567
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Posted on Thursday, March 2, 2006 - 1:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Scrotis and Southerner,

The Zogby-Le Moyne poll says nearly 3 of 4 troops in Iraq want the US to withdraw within 12 months. This is evidence that the main rallying call of war supporters: "Support Our Troops" is a hollow phrase -- unless you add the words "and Bring them Home in 2006."

I have to say that I respect the two of you for participating in this thread and attempting to maintain your position in the face of its premise.

But putting aside your support for the President's policy, do you not now agree that opponents of the war have just as much right as the President's supporters to say that we "Support the Troops?"
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Scrotis Lo Knows
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Username: Scrotisloknows

Post Number: 926
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Posted on Thursday, March 2, 2006 - 2:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Paul-

I hope we all support the troops no matter what side of this war you are on. You must understand that if certain individuals in your camp do support the troops, they have a funny way of showing it.

I think the common goal by all is to bring them home by the ned of 2006...let's hope it happens...

-SLK
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Robert Livingston
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Username: Rob_livingston

Post Number: 1640
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Posted on Thursday, March 2, 2006 - 2:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Scrotis: Are you saying Bush is wrong. Bush doesn't want to bring the troops home by the end of 2006...at least, he claims it's not possible. So if you want the troops home this year, you are against Bush, you hate America, and you are possibly a closet liberal. Is that correct?
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Scrotis Lo Knows
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Username: Scrotisloknows

Post Number: 928
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Posted on Thursday, March 2, 2006 - 2:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

RL,

Your politics are so simpleminded that it is almost creepy.

Why do so many liberals do this?

I think they should come home by the end of 2006. YES, I DISAGREE WITH THE POTUS. Should he be impeached for this disagreement? Of course not...

By the way, when did Bush say it wasn't possible?

-SLK
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Hoops
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Username: Hoops

Post Number: 854
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Thursday, March 2, 2006 - 3:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

actually we now know that no matter what he says or when he says it - we cant believe it.

In his own words -

"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."

Or as a person with a brain might say -

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

He cant fool me, but maybe he can continue to fool you.
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Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner

Post Number: 766
Registered: 2-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 2, 2006 - 7:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Paul,
I have always agreed that either side can support the troops. To me that is not even an issue. As for the Pres, he ran and won, I didn't. So, I think that gives him the right to make the decision, whether right or wrong in my opinion. As for the poll, I won't dispute or argue the numbers. To me they don't matter. Our troops are employees. They joined the military of their own free will. I'm sure they want to come home and be reassigned to Hawaii or Southern California, but employees don't get to set the terms of their employment. I bet if you took a poll at any business in America of the employees that you would get a 100% data that indicates they would like the work day to end at 2pm instead of 5pm. Does that mean they should do it?

My point is the duly elected President makes that determination. If Hillary wins in 2008 and wants to bring them home the next day, then no one should be allowed to stop her. That is how democracy works. If these troops want to come home then I would suspect when there enlistment is up they won't sign on for another tour.

And seriously, what should we do with all the polling data? Why don't we just abolish elections and on the first of every month have a poll to see who is President for the month and our state Reps. Actually, that doesn't sound like a bad idea, but I suspect even you libs would get tired of playmates being POTUS eventually.

And Hoops I agree. Bush fooled all of you into thinking he was a compassionate conservative. The proof is in your shock at what he does. It should have been obvious after the first few months in office that a lot of fence riding libs got played into voting for him. If liberals are truly the silent majority in this nation, then you should be absolutely mad at your fellow flip flopping libs who voted for Bush. Why you are so mad at conservatives whom you have known are your enemies is beyond me. Bush, the dumbest Pres in history, bamboozled enough libs that he got re-elected. From my minority conservative status that was brilliant political theater.
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joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove

Post Number: 134
Registered: 1-2006
Posted on Friday, March 3, 2006 - 5:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Zogby Hangs Up
by Hugh Hewitt
March 2, 2006 01:24 PM PST

I interviewed John Zogby about 1:00 Pacific today, but he hung up on me after objecting to my questions. Among the questions: Did he travel to Iraq to oversee the polling? (No.) Would he tell me who had overseen the polling? (Information International of Beirut.) Would he tell me who at Information International? (No.) What did he pay the survey takers? (He wouldn't say). Had he been invited by the someone in the American military to brief on results? (Yes.) Who was that? (He wouldn't say.)

Why hadn't he released the demographics? (He had, he said. I disagreed. He hung up.)

I'll play the interview a few times. In fairness, his office had sent the demographics info (which had not been released yesterday and still isn't on the web) but did so in a PDF file that we were only able to read after downloading a new version of Adobe. When we were talking, we didn't have the demographics. Had Zogby simply told me the demographics were now out after previously being withheld, that would have been fine. Radioblogger will post the transcript, the questions (which I did have and which I was about to get into with him when he hung up) and the survey questions and results later today.


The "poll" is quite obviously crap when one sees the questions, and Zogby's refusal to answer basic questions that do not go to security underscores his defensiveness. The survey instrument is shot through with absurd choices while missing obvious questions, such as "How important is success of this mission?" and "Describe your morale?" It would have been interesting to ask if the troops have heard of Cindy Shaheen, or their opinion of the antiwar activists, though of course an antiwar activist paid for this circus.

I doubt it would be appropriate to ask for opinions on the president or Secretary Rumsfeld, but given that Zogby didn't ask for permission from the Pentagon, he might want to answer that down the line.

In the interview Zogby complains that his PR director told my producer he wouldn't discuss some things on air. Fine. I didn't ask any of those things, like base location or identity or methods of the "poll" takers.

But Zogby flew off the handle at one point exclaiming he was a patriot, a fact with which I don't disagree and haven't raised.

I think he's a shameless self-promoting pretend pollster, that's all.

And I think the smoke about "security" is just that. And refusing to tell me which military man wanted a briefing was the giveaway.

You can trust John Zogby as much as this poll. Which means, not at all.


Criticism of Zogby is not new, nor confined to the center-right. See Chris Mooney's "The Creative Polls of John Zogby," from the February 1, 2003 American Prospect.


UPDATE: Mystery Pollster links to this article which quotes Zogby letting his agenda slip:


"The results are startling," Zogby said. "I'm not the first person to use the term 'Vietnam,' but it does suggest somewhat of a morale issue - certainly a disagreement."

Per

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