| Author |
Message |
    
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12737
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 5, 2006 - 11:05 pm: | 
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Southerner, see what anon said about abdication from critical thinking. Do you understand the difference between someone who advocates for one side of the fence and someone who decides on an issue based on the merits of the arguments? I try to do the latter, as much as possible. I happen to come out on the left most of the time, but that's not a goal in and of itself.
I'm reminded of some of the stupid cartoons directed at boys, where, as far as one can tell, the difference between the good guys and the bad guys is the color of their costumes. Why be proud of rooting for either side?
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GOP Man
Citizen
Username: Headsup
Post Number: 291
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, March 5, 2006 - 11:11 pm: |
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cjc and slk are the only ones who get it. you libs don't understand that the president did as good a job on Katrina as anyone could have expected. overflowing levees aren't nearly as big a deal as breached levees, everyone knows that. once he heard the word "overrun" instead of "breach" he thought he could sleep well and prepare for his important trip to San Diego. in fact, all of FEMA thought the heat was off. what do all you dopey libs expect? once the "overrun" word went out, the entire federal government relaxed, as any of us would have. how were they supposed to know the situation got worse? |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12744
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 12:00 am: |
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So far, I haven't seen a substantive, convincing defense of Bush's inaction.
I think not paying attention is worse than lying, because it reflects an insufficient level of consciousness.
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GOP Man
Citizen
Username: Headsup
Post Number: 292
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 6:52 am: |
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you don't seem to understand the vast and important difference between the words "overrun" and "breach." |
The SLK Effect
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 988
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 8:22 am: |
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Thank you GOP Man-I think this is all has to do with the liberal belief that we must rely on the Federal Govt to fix all our ills.
Everyone, this goes BEYOND politics, ok? TR, how was Bush not paying attention? There is a HUGE difference between "overrun" and "breached." Should Dubya been standing by the levees with a bucket or some quickcrete?
Where is the criticism for Nagin and Blanco (sp) and the people who decided to stay even after a week's warning? How come no one followed the Emergency Evacaution Plan when Katrina hit?
It is the same argument as Iraq. "Saddam is an evil dick BUT..." "The LA state/local govts. were at fault too BUT..."
But what?
Face it, you are trying to blame this man for ANYTHING. This unresloved anger began back durning the 2000 "stolen election" (sarcasm)and hasn't let off the pedal yet...
-SLK |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 4470
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 8:32 am: |
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I keep reading the image of Bush with bags of quickrete. Is this something that Rush has been saying?
How was Bush not paying attention? His aides had to compile a dvd of news footage and almost force him to watch it, so he'd get off his vacationing ••• and get his heck-of-a-job underlings into gear. |
The SLK Effect
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 990
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 8:35 am: |
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Tom-
Still no criticism for the LA state/local govt and the citizens?
BUT
BUT
BUT
BUT
BUT BUT
-SLK |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 864
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 8:36 am: |
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SLK your posts are laughable. It is you that just dont get it and you that continues to argue totally 'off' points.
Bush failed during Katrina because he did not lead he campaigned. He campaigned for the party line while people were stranded without food or water or hope of evacuation. He toured areas that were decimated and instead of cutting through the red tape and actually exercising presidential authority where it could do some good, he allowed his crony friends to completely mangle and mishandle the situation. This is after giving his 'word' that federal help would be there in sufficient amounts.
The fact is that the president is responsible for a great many misdeeds, mistakes and problems of his own doing. |
bottomline
Citizen
Username: Bottomline
Post Number: 388
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 9:06 am: |
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The fact that we (and presumably other Americans) are arguing over breached versus topped levees shows that the White House has won the PR battle.
The issue should be whether FEMA is truly prepared for major disasters in the U.S., including the recovery afterward. This was both the promise and rationale given when FEMA was subsumed into the Department of Homeland Security. In the wake of 9/11, we were led to believe that FEMA would be more effective under the new organizational structure, and that victims of catastrophe would be better taken care of. In short, we were told America would be safer.
So now what do Americans expect when the next terrorist attack comes along? Or earthquake. Or hurricane. (You don't think there’s any chance a another monster hurricane might menace the U.S. anytime soon, do you?)
Having watched Katrina, what would you expect on a personal basis if the next big disaster left you homeless? What if you and your family became refugees, needing a place to stay while your entire city was being rebuilt? Would your city even be rebuilt? Do you think Dubya and his boy Michael Chertoff are rolling up their sleeves to correct past mistakes and be ready for the next big one?
Hah! They’re watching us quibble over the levees in New Orleans and deciding they can put their energies elsewhere. Chertoff is defending the Dubai ports deal and Bush is selling nukes to India.
I think I’m going to go hide in my basement. We’re not in a flood zone around here, are we?
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Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 1666
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 9:11 am: |
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Bush is a liar.
Anyone who denies it is delusional. |
GOP Man
Citizen
Username: Headsup
Post Number: 293
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 9:12 am: |
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you're welcom slk.
Let me explain this so that even libs can understand. As all conservatives do, I researched this issue so we can deal with fact not conjecture.
Here's the implication of the word "overrun" with regard to the NO levees. Overrun means the water overflows the walls of the levee. In the case of NO, the overflowing water eroded the earth at the base of the levee on the city side. Ultimately the erosion caused the levee walls to give way. Overrun is a distal cause, not proximate cause of the levee failure. How on earth do we expect FEMA, DHS, or the president to understand something like this, and anticipate its importance? This would mean putting together the information they had, and running a worst case scenario. Why would they have done that? I've seen the tape of Bush in that videoconference, and he looks alert and interested, and really, which of us could have done more than that? He's no engineer, and neither are any of you. It's easy for you to carp now, but who of you would have done better? |
The SLK Effect
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 994
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 9:34 am: |
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RL,
Great post, really? Maybe lacking some of your usual wit....but you get an A for effort....
GOP Man-people think we are splitting hairs by differentiating between "breaching" and "overrrun " like it is not important
Un freaking believable....
Still no criticism for the LA state/local govt and the citizens?
Wow....
-SLK |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 5290
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 9:36 am: |
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If a hurricane hit my home and leveled my city, I'd move and I might move back afterwards. I certainly wouldn't wait for someone else to take care of me. Then again I've never put much stock in putting my happiness in the hands of others. More to the point, I'd move out of the city before the hurricane hit. I'd also have insurance, as I do now (though living on a hill, I don't have flood insurance). |
GOP Man
Citizen
Username: Headsup
Post Number: 295
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 9:40 am: |
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right you are slik. it's not splitting hairs at all. who knew overrun would lead to a levee failure? only people like us realize that you have to cut FEMA a lot of slack on this. how were they supposed to know that a topped levee might fail? let's face it, in DC the word "overrun" never raises a red flag. usually it's a good thing for your contributors when there's an overrun, and I think that's probably where Bush's head was at. I really feel sorry for my president. he's the real victim here, victimized by the liberal media jackals. |
Duncan
Supporter
Username: Duncanrogers
Post Number: 5865
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 9:44 am: |
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cjc...your post points to exactly the disconnect in this issue. Sure you and SLK and Straw and me and notehead would all do as you suggest. But that is because we have the means to do that. Many in NOLA did not have the means. And if you feel, as you seem to based on many previous posts, that the gov't shouldn't be responsible for the less fortunate among us, then there is no reasoning with you on the fact that the US Gov't let down thousands of people likely resulting in the death of many.
The people who stayed behind didn't ALL have a choice. Some couldn't get out of town as they had no transportation. And they had all been fed a steady stream of "we are prepared and ready to help out" from the city, state and federal gov'ts. So they were counting on that help to be there. And it wasn't. Whether you feel they deserve it or not is moot at this point.
Should have, Could have, Would have. Hindsight is 20/20. Especially when viewed from the hill on which you live. With the comforts you know and have earned. |
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 1668
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 9:44 am: |
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Scrotis: Dude, keep it up... |
Guy
Supporter
Username: Vandalay
Post Number: 1628
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 10:05 am: |
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The lack of intellectual curiousity on the left in regards to Katrina is amazing. Bush has admitted that the response was inadaquate. Investigation points to bureaucracy getting in the way. I have seen no evidence that the hesitation on the part of FEMA cost lives.
What I have seen is that the Coast Guard that is part of FEMA rescued over 30k.
It's seems that the priority was saving those stranded in the flood not the Superdome.
Remember , estimates had over 10K people dead. Last check it was 1300. Remember FEMA's purpose is to assist locals.
Facts instead of hysteria would be welcome from my intellectually superior liberal friends. |
The SLK Effect
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 996
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 10:16 am: |
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Duncan-
Uh oh, the "poor people" argument. Are you trying to play on people's guilt now? Sorry, I am not buying nor having any of it. They must be held accountable too, especially after having 7 days to figure something out...
Person 1: What happened?
Person 2: SLK was walking down the middle of the street when a tractor trailer ran him over...
Person 1: WOW!!! Why didn't he just get out of the road and walk on the sidewalk where it would be safer?
Person 2: Well, he is too poor and didn't have the financial means to do so....
Person 1: Ummm, ok.
-SLk
And good job switching the debate from govt response to lack of means. Pretty tricky...
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cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 5291
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 10:40 am: |
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Duncan -- I think the real disconnect here is Hoops asked me what I'd do on a personal basis were I in New Orleans. Were the question asked about what the public should have done, I'd have answered differently.
And if you're looking at me as one who absolves the Bush Administration or responsibility here, you've got the wrong guy. I am not, however, going to lay the lion's share of blame at the feet of the Administration with the disaster relief system as it existed at the time of Katrina. |
bottomline
Citizen
Username: Bottomline
Post Number: 389
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 10:47 am: |
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Cjc,
I'm not sure that your self-reliance would be so effective for a disaster of Katrina proportions. Ok, so we all got homeowners insurance. What if the municipal infrastructure is still out six months after the event? No sewer, water and/or electricity? Will your insurance let you build somewhere other than your existing lot? (Probably not.) Will your insurance pay you to rebuild in place even of those services are still not restored? (Probably not.) What if the disaster is a dirty bomb, and you and your family survive, but your neighborhood will be radioactive for years? Will your homeowners insurance help you then? (Almost certainly not.)
The federal government is the only entity that can deal with disasters of these proportions. To me, that’s the basic rationale for a federal system of government, namely that the it will deal with issues that can’t be handled by individuals, cities or states. We’ve been sold a bill of goods by the architects of the Homeland Security Department, and Dubya himself is the chief architect. It doesn’t make any difference if he appeared alert at some video conference during Katrina. He has failed to lead the nation in being prepared for catastrophe.
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Duncan
Supporter
Username: Duncanrogers
Post Number: 5867
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 10:51 am: |
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SLK I am not trying to "pull" anything. It is a truth. 7 days notwithstanding.
cjc actually makes more sense by making his distinction clearer. You just throw out ridiculous scenes to try to mask what is, to many folks besides just me, a truth. Oh well. Like I said, there is no arguing with that reasoning. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 5294
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 11:21 am: |
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Duncan -- your last message has lost me. And about 'deserving' help or not wasn't part of anything I answered or implied.
bottomline -- I'd have to wait until building was an option and live elsewhere until that happened. Quick call to my insurance agent is they cover the cost of the house itself (not the land) and they'd allow me to rebuild the structure anywhere subject to some formulas that take into account the location/county/state where the lot is.
I agree that the federal government is the only entity to deal with catastrophes of this magnitude beyond what a prepared citizen can do. This applies to the unprepared citizens as well. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12747
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 11:27 am: |
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SLK, yes, the mayor and governor deserve blame, too. There, I said it. Is that good?
But it's really poor form to blame those with less power than yourself. That's what Bush did. As I said before, it's not leadership, it's blamership. He should be setting the example.
And sorry guys, for busting the joke, but I just have to. SLK, GOP Man is a shill. Take a look again at what he says. He is ridiculing you, putting absurd words in the rightwing's collective mouth.
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Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 869
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 11:29 am: |
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TOM! The apology is not accepted. This could have gone on for weeks.
darn you Tom Reingold!
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Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 1671
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 11:37 am: |
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Reingold!
(Said in Seinfeld's Newman! voice)... |
The SLK Effect
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 1003
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 11:41 am: |
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Tom-
I got the shillness in his last post when I first read it....thanks...
-SLK |
GOP Man
Citizen
Username: Headsup
Post Number: 296
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 11:42 am: |
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Reingold is doing exactly what he accuses me of - putting words in someone else's mouth. But I try to ignore people like him. My arguments, and those of the rest of us on the right, speak for themselves. |
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 1672
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 11:44 am: |
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Scrotis, "I knew that. Why would anyone say I didn't know that?" |
ae35unit
Citizen
Username: Ae35unit
Post Number: 10
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 12:11 pm: |
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Guy, your earlier post consists of passive aggressive name calling and not much more. The three points you made are meaningless. The point of this thread is really how can an intellectually honest person support our administration. You can call people names and obfuscate all you want. When is enough enough? The phony moral equivalence on this thread blows my mind. What's in it for you to back the Republicans as they operate today? Randy Cunningham, Tom Delay, Katherine Harris, Cheney- these are the people who you identify with? Jeez. |
Guy
Supporter
Username: Vandalay
Post Number: 1629
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 12:18 pm: |
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unit, your post proves my point. All rhetoric no facts. I pointed out that 100k people were rescued by the Coast Guard and National Guard.
The loss of life was much lower than estimates. Something must have been done right.
My point is that is wasn't a total failure.
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The SLK Effect
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 1004
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 12:26 pm: |
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RL, "Really TR? I didn't realize that until you pointed it out..."
ae35unit-and it is intellectually honest to bash the administration at every chance, legitimate or not?
From what I can tell, Bush supporters on these boards are trying to keep the discussions intellectually honest (supporting and criticizing Dubya as they see it).
-SLK
Hey, what did Katherine Harris do?
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ae35unit
Citizen
Username: Ae35unit
Post Number: 11
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 12:37 pm: |
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SLK and Guy, I have to think the way we process information is different, or I'd have to think… man I just don't know. Katharine Harris is involved in the Duke Cunningham deal. There's plenty to read. I picked this article virtually at random. This creates a problem for her, I'm sure.
http://news.tbo.com/news/metro/MGB10T5WEKE.html
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The SLK Effect
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 1006
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 12:40 pm: |
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ae35unit-
Oh well, I guess she brought it on herself, if the allegations are true.
We have to remember that we are still dealing with POLITICIANS here. Most politicians are scumbags.... |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 5297
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 12:47 pm: |
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I disagree. I'd say some of the politicians are 'bags, not most of them.
And the American public eventually gets what it wants, and they deserve the politicians they elect -- corrupt or not. |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 2493
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 2:17 pm: |
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Actually, they deserve the politicians they vote for. I doubt anyone on the far right would agree that they got the President they deserved in Clinton. |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 787
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 4:01 pm: |
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This thread is the perfect of example of why elections are so important. Many of you claim I view politics as a game. Well, guess what. If your boy Gore or Kerry had won the election, we would still have this thread but the roles would be reversed. Elections do matter and winning matters. Politics is not an intellectual pursuit. It is the dirtiest of games so why most of you spend needless energy overanalyzing every move, the smart ones are doing the prep work for a successful campaign. You libs are in for yet another rude awakening in November, especially if you continue the campaign of nothingness.
And Reingold, I'm quite surprised that all your critical thinking leads you to fall on the liberal side. I'm shocked. That's some good critical thinking. I guess when my critical thinking leads me to the side of the conservatives that by definition it's not critical but partisan. Either way, it doesn't matter. Results are all that matter in politics. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12754
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 4:06 pm: |
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Results most certainly matter, but only because we're still hoping to achieve some things. And we use principles to guide us. Well, some of us do. I don't believe the ends justify the means.
And if Kerry had messed up on the Gulf Coast, yes, we'd be having this thread, and why is that a bad thing?
We are all spending needless energy needlessly. If you don't find this useful in some way, then just don't bother. If you want to criticize us for wasting energy, the criticism fits just fine on you, too.
If you're really surprised that reasoning can lead one to a liberal viewpoint, I could point out why it makes sense, but I think I'd rather invite you out of my face. I've heard of Southern gentility, and I hope your insults are not an example of it.
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Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 1676
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 4:16 pm: |
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Disagree, Southerner. No way a President Gore or President Kerry or President McCain or President Dole or anyone let's what happened happen. Monumental incompetence, coupled with shocking indifference, is unique to one president only. It's too bad you feel only election results matter, and not performance results. Then again, Southerner's been married three times and still has the same in-laws.
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cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 5298
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 6:01 pm: |
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How can you with a straight face leave Kerry out of anything involving 'monumental incompetence" when he blows his signature issue of the campaign? |
Duncan
Supporter
Username: Duncanrogers
Post Number: 5871
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 7:25 pm: |
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because that is a subjective opinion. It would be hard to quantify the number of dead as a result of Kerry blowing his signature issue.
hyberbole intentional for those who don't recognize it |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 789
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 7:31 pm: |
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Tom,
I don't see where I insulted you. Is disagreeing by its nature insulting? I've never intended to insult only point out some of your logical flaws. You are no more a critical thinker than the rest of us posters. See, my premise is that everyone who takes the time to post has examined the issues to the best of their abilities and have come up with a critical answer. I have never denigrated the process or told someone they should analyze more. I simply say whether I agree or disagree and then let the voters decide which side the majority falls. You and most other liberals just refuse to accept that your critical view may be wrong. You folks live in such a low tax, crime free and corruption free area that I can understand that you believe your way works. I mean, Trenton, is the shining example of what State government should be. Us red staters may not be perfect but we don't act like we have all the answers. As for Southern gentility, I use when it is needed and I've long ago given it up on this board. Right around the time every lib was losing it after the election and instead of looking at how Kerry screwed himself they wanted to paint red American with a broad brush. Yeah, I don't have much gentility left on this board. I'm here to give you libs a reality check that the rest of America understands what you mean when you make "critical thinking" type comments. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12756
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 8:15 pm: |
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I don't believe there's a wrong or right view. It's a matter of taste, so you can't show me I'm wrong any more than I can show you you're wrong in your political leanings. So there's no such thing as a reality check when it comes to opinions.
The insult is that you expressed surprise that I ended up on the left, having done some of my "best" critical thinking. Is your implication that those who think come out on the right and those who don't end up on the left? No, I think our differences in leanings are probably from valuing different things to different degrees.
I don't claim to have all the answers, either. Did I appear to?
Anyway, you do spend a lot of time on who's winning and who will win and who has won. I'm more interested in the day to day stuff which happens between elections. I can criticize our leaders and hope they do better each day rather than thinking about upcoming elections.
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Duncan
Supporter
Username: Duncanrogers
Post Number: 5872
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 6, 2006 - 8:50 pm: |
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Or constantly gloating over passed ones. |
notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 3123
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 7, 2006 - 1:31 pm: |
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Dunc, thanks for your assumption that I would do the sensible thing. But for the record, I would not have evacuated. I would have gone about my usual business until the floodwaters were over my head, and then waited on my roof for a pickup with a nice sandwich and a few dark beers. But that's only because I think helicopters are rilly rilly cool and I want to go for a ride in one.  |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 791
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 7, 2006 - 8:09 pm: |
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Duncan,
I don't overtly gloat, but what else can I do when the many Democrats on this board constantly make statements like Bush and the Republicans are in the minority. The only way I know how is to point to the election. Those results are the only un-biased and un-opinionated facts in politics. Every other poll or column is easily manipulated to get the pollsters or writers desired results. Can't we agree that elections are the only true test of the opinions of the American people. You guys in NJ just had one and Corzine won. If I made some lame excuses how his philosophy was in the minority, then I'd expect the Dems to point to the results.
Tom,
Your right. We both analyze and critically think yet come to different opinions. That is why I like this board. I enjoy reading differing views from many of you. And you are probably also right about my overemphasis on election results, but I truly believe election results are the benchmarks in time for measuring the public's sentiments. Many Dems constantly make absurd statements like the liberal philosophy is overwhelmingly embraced in this country. How else am I suppose to refute this without pointing to the scoreboard? Politics isn't really as complicated as many make it seem. If we had an eight party system then it would be. However, we have only two choices and only one winner. I guarantee I will be making the same comments if/when the Dems get back into power. I simply believe the duly elected officials should be allowed to govern without the burden of having to watch over their shoulder at every decision, whether it is a Dem or Repub. Although, I don't care for Corzine or Hillary, they should be allowed to make decisions and votes based on the majority who elected them. And if Hillary wins the Presidency, then I will be behind her in using her duly elected authority to govern how she seems fit. Of course, I will work hard to not give her a second term, but I won't be trashing her on a weekly basis either. If she wins she deserves the respect of the American people.
I admit, the Repubs started this all out assault when they went after Clinton for impeachment. I don't blame the Dems for playing hardball with Bush. And I fully expect the Repubs to do the same when a Dem wins. |
tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3303
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 7, 2006 - 8:24 pm: |
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The only way I know how is to point to the election. Those results are the only un-biased and un-opinionated facts in politics. Every other poll or column is easily manipulated to get the pollsters or writers desired results. Can't we agree that elections are the only true test of the opinions of the American people.
I wish we could be sure of that in places like Florida, 2000 and Ohio, 2004. You see, southerner, some of us would say your view of elections may be somewhat naive, or at least, pre-11/2000.
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tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 4478
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 7, 2006 - 8:32 pm: |
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And however you feel about Florida 2000, if you look at the American people in toto Bush did not win in 2000. He was the beneficiary of a 200-year old compromise -- and one that was put into place to protect smaller states' interests, not those of us in the bigger states.
Ohio 2004 went a hair's breadth of going the other way, and the behavior of the Ohio Secretary of State leading up to the election makes the whole process extremely suspect.
If Kerry had won 2004 with a minority of the popular vote, I would have expected him to govern from the middle, just as we liberals expected Bush to do.
The Bush presidency is thisclose to being a statistical fluke. So I don't believe that his rather extreme positions in any way reflect the opinions of the American people, who are really split very closely up the middle. |
Duncan
Supporter
Username: Duncanrogers
Post Number: 5905
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 7, 2006 - 8:40 pm: |
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You don't overtly gloat???
What do you call 90% of your posts then?? And I just went back and wandered through the archives and couldn't find any posts saying that Bush and Republicans are in the minority. I found plenty that criticize them, and a few that question the legitimacy of the elections, and even one quoting the popular vote and proving that, while he won the Electoral College, he didn't win the popular vote, but no where that they are in the minority.
Fess up...you overtly gloat. Either wear it as a badge or stop doing it. But you are being incredibly disingenous when you say you don't overtly gloat.
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Helen Thomas
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 1967
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 7, 2006 - 8:44 pm: |
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Quote:Duncan, I don't overtly gloat
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Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 792
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 - 8:53 am: |
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Okay, fine I gloat. My side won your side lost. And your whining about a 200 year old system is priceless. You only complain about it when you lose. Why haven't you Dems tried to change the system to a popular vote then? And whether Bush is a statistical fluke is meaningless, yet I love how this really bothers you guys.
Whether you like the system or not, we all knew the rules before the election. So, your whining is absolutely priceless. I have no problem using any kind of voting process you guys would like to use. And Tom, the idea that a candidate should govern based on how the vote turned out is truly delusional. If Hillary wins, I would not expect or require her to govern from the middle. That idea is just pure liberal BS. To the winner goes the spoils. You guys just can't handle that for the first time in decades you have no spoils! And I can't wait until November to gloat some more when the Republicans are re-elected to control Congress.
In the meantime I will continue to enjoy reading all your critical analysis on why you libs are right on every subject yet have no power to implement your plans. This board is truly priceless for a conservative to read. The laughs are non-stop. |
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 1682
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 - 9:01 am: |
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Take Southerner's incessant ramblings (he has posted the same "thought" over and over 792 times) with a grain of salt, afterall, unlike most of us civilized people, he can tinker with his carborater while sitting on his commode. |
Dr. Winston O'Boogie
Citizen
Username: Casey
Post Number: 1968
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 - 9:02 am: |
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Quote:Okay, fine I gloat.
And taunt. You forgot taunt. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 4480
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 - 9:07 am: |
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I'm not whining you knucklehead. I'm pointing out that there's no mandate. Remember a mandate? It's what was claimed (by republicans) when Reagan blew away his opponents. It's what was denied (by republicans) when Clinton got less than 50%.
What it means is, Bush's squeakers do NOT represent any kind of strong will of the public. The public is on the fence, and happened to tilt to Bush's side.
That does not mean that there's a mass movement to dismantle Social Security (duh), rape the environment, and pack the judiciary. Bush can certainly try to do those things, but there's no reason for anybody to say, "well that's what America really really really wants." |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 794
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 - 1:52 pm: |
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RL,
That's because the Repubs have been in power since I've been posting. If you guys would ever get someone elected then I'd be happy to dive into the internet underworld of conspiracy theories and rumor. Maybe Foj and tulip could just send me their "Favorites" to make it easier. And I guarantee when a Dem does finally win something, you will be shocked when I side with you more than I do now. I know attacking is fun and gets the blood pumping but I simply want my government officials to be able to do their jobs without the constant drumbeat of negativism whether they are Dem or Repub.
tom,
I re-read your post and you do not use the word "mandate" one time. If you had, then I would have agreed with you that Bush doesn't have one. But, I guess you are now trying to say that not only does a candidate have to win an election by they need a mandate before they can push their agenda. If that is correct then you have the right to that opinion. I think many posters whether neo-con or lib would have an issue with this two tiered system. So, I guess in your opinion Bush should do nothing but sit on the fence for 4 years and you would have expected Kerry to do the same. Something tells me if Hillary wins by 1 electoral vote, the left won't be asking her to sit on the fence.
As for your last sentence, we just disagree. If the country votes for a Republican President and votes for Republican Congress people then I will say that is what the American people want. And you seem to forget that the election for President isn't a popular vote. I could care less what the popular vote is. I want electoral votes. If the system is changed then I will change my point of view. I'll play by the rules at the time of the game. You libs just can't understand why you get beat at the political game so often and so soundly (gloating with a tint of taunt). |
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 1686
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 - 2:02 pm: |
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Don't go to Southerner looking for political thought. Go to him if you need to know which leaves make good toilet paper. |
Grrrrrrrrrrr
Citizen
Username: Oldsctls67
Post Number: 350
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 8, 2006 - 2:45 pm: |
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carburetor... |
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