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Message |
    
CageyD
Citizen
Username: Cageyd
Post Number: 649
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 12:54 pm: | 
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Slk "Yet again, liberals don't beleieve in personal responsibility for anything...."
Au contraire, we fully understand the personal responsibility of raising children. It takes more than giving birth to do it well. It takes a host of qualifications and life situations if you are to have a hope it hell of doing it well. Consequently, we feel that women should take personal resonsibility for the task or RAISING - not just birthing children - and if they don't feel they can provide a good, wholesome adequate setting for the child then they take personal reponsibility for the situation, and make the agonizing decision to terminate the fetus. |
ffof
Citizen
Username: Ffof
Post Number: 4557
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 1:33 pm: |
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Everyone needs to get beyond it's right or wrong and focus on lowering the absolute number and percentage in the population. The only way to do that is via education and family planning/health clinics avenues. But the right is quick to nix those ideas. They want a total ban, but yet that won't prevent abortions from hapening not to mention the number of unwanted children and terrible home lives that they will inherit.
The same problem comes with the "drug war". Making everything illegal with stiff penalties (especially for possession without intent to distribute) has not made drugs go away. Education and rehabilitation works much better. And can save us $$ in the long run. |
Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 850
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 1:39 pm: |
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One consequence of having sex is pregnancy, either wanted or unwanted.
There's that insight again!
One consequence of driving a car is a hideous, bloody, death by decapitation. Does that mean a) everyone who drives will die, b) people shouldn't drive cars if they don't want to die and c) anybody who gets into a car accident deserves what they get?
So because sex is, as you put it, a "biological imperative," no one should try to control those desires and use them responsibly?
Of course they should try. And guess what? People do try. But even with comprehensive sex education and proper use of birth control (both of which would reduce the number of abortions, not that right-wingers care), sh*t happens. Your suggestion of "Don't have sex" may work for you, but it doesn't work for everyone...and not because they're all "sinners" and you're Captain Self-Control.
My point is that giving up sex is harder than your run-of-the-mill choice. As usual, there's more to the story than the typical right-wing oversimplification. |
The SLK Effect
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 1090
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 3:48 pm: |
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abolish all laws pertaining to rape, sexual molestation, etc....the human sexual drive is both rocket science and is too hard to control so why even bother....  |
llama
Citizen
Username: Llama
Post Number: 743
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 4:03 pm: |
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...and it's these freaky hypocritical "right to lifers" who are killing people with thier wars and death penalties. I just don't get it. They have a very primitive belief system. Not too sophisticated. That's why we're stuck with Bush. If you think about it, his policies are like a 21st century version of the Spanish Inquisition and his followers are his mob of hopelessly ignorant lunatics. |
The SLK Effect
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 1093
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 4:28 pm: |
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llama hunting season still in effect...load em up boys.... |
Parkbench87
Citizen
Username: Parkbench87
Post Number: 3753
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 4:31 pm: |
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timmeh? |
Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 851
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 10, 2006 - 4:33 pm: |
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I said:
As usual, there's more to the story than the typical right-wing oversimplification.
To which you replied:
abolish all laws pertaining to rape, sexual molestation, etc....the human sexual drive is both rocket science and is too hard to control so why even bother....
Posted without comment. |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 2581
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 12:11 am: |
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reducto ad absurdum (or something like that) |
The SLK Effect
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 1099
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 3:13 pm: |
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Madden 11-
Please explain the rocket science behind sex?
Brace yourself folks, this should be a good one....
-SLK |
Montagnard
Citizen
Username: Montagnard
Post Number: 1902
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 4:00 pm: |
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I do not believe than anyone opposed to abortion is seriously interested in the life of a fetus, other than for the emotional rush it gives them to feel morally superior to the woman with an unwanted pregnancy.
The hypocrites will claim otherwise of course, but what else would you expect?
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Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 852
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 10:40 pm: |
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Please explain the rocket science behind sex?
Don't worry, Scrotis. One day, some kind-hearted girl will take pity on you, and you'll be able to see for yourself. Hang in there, buddy! |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 5322
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 5:11 pm: |
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Like the pro-abortion argument, it's all about what is convenient and makes you feel better about the decision, Monty.
Your statement is on par with saying "those who are pro-choice really know they're taking the life of their children but need a law to make themselves feel guilt-free about it." Except that wouldn't be true. How else do you explain their going through this emotionally wracked decision if the fetus was nothing more than a worthless blob of cells? You've heard pro-choice women talk about the pain of the decision. How can you be sorrowful if the biggest problem was the inconvenience of an out-patient medical procedure and a missed lunch? |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 4505
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 5:53 pm: |
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Monty, cjc, none of it is as one-dimensional as you suggest. There are people who are saddened when they have an abortion and have lingering guilt afterwards. There are also people who genuinely feel that the fetus or even embryo is a legitimate human being.
There are also people who glibly use it as last-ditch birth control (though it's certainly rougher on you than using a condom); and there are people who at the end of the day who are really hung up on sexual guilt and want to control others.
But so what? |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 10920
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 6:06 pm: |
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I will bet you dollars to donuts that the majority of the most zealous anti-abortion advocates also advocate absinence only sex education in the schools, making it more likely that kids will get pregnant, because they don't know the methods to keep from getting pregnant.
I know there are exceptions, but the vast majority of anti-abortion activists are religious based. Their faith teaches them that a two day old fetus is a human being, in spite of filing cabinets full of scientific evidence to the contrary. I have no problem with this believe. However, they shouldn't be trying to impose their religion on the rest of us. |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 819
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 7:32 pm: |
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Bob,
I totally disagree and yet agree at the same time. I agree that the "vast majority of anti-abortion activists are religious based" as you said. But that is a small group. By inserting the word "activist" you make a correct statement. Take out the word activist and you are wrong. Most people against abortion on demand are not religious based. They are folks who simply come to a different opinion than you or I. I am pro-choice and don't mind abortion on demand. If a woman wants to kill her own child then I say get it done and live with the decision. Most of the anti abortion people aren't religious nuts as you make them out to be. They are intelligent people who have a differing view of when that magical moment is when life begins. Some think it happens at two days like you referenced. Others think it is the 2nd trimester or 3rd trimester. And some think it is when it pops out.
And in regards to your last sentence, no one is trying to force religion on anyone in the abortion debate. It is a debate about the laws of the nation just like the eminent domain and domestic wiretaps are. No doubt they get their desire from religion but so what. The anti-abortion folks don't care if you join their church or not, they just don't want people killing innocent children (in their opinion).
Either way, we are a nation of laws and lawyers/judges so the SC will have the final say no matter what the nuts on either side think. But, if the left is so worried about the religious nuts taking over then they should elect more atheists and agnostics to balance them out. But anytime I mention elections the libs go crazy because they don't like democracy especially when they continue to lose. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 5323
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 8:30 pm: |
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Nor did I mean to suggest it was one-dimensional, tom. I was just returning fire.
The only way you can feel at all guilty about having an abortion, in my estimation, is because you feel you have terminated a life. Seriously -- why feel at all guilty if you don't think you've terminated life? |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 4506
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 8:56 pm: |
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That's at least partially true; but there are lots of things in life you can feel regret over, that doesn't mean they should all be against the law.
I went out with a girl once a long time ago who told me about how she once had an abortion, and sometimes she imagined she heard a baby crying even though there were none around. Obvioiusly she felt some deep regret over having to have done it. But she wasn't ready to be a mother, and despite her feelings didn't think abortion should be banned. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 5325
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 9:07 pm: |
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What part isn't true? You've got people who don't think it should be against the law -- which is fine but it doesn't undermine the premise of my argument.
The only way you can regret an abortion on a deeper level than its sheer inconvenience is because you know in your heart of hearts you snuffed a life. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 4508
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 9:25 pm: |
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It's partially true because you're overstating your case just a wee bit by using "guilt" instead of "regret," and hot-button words like "sheer inconvenience," and "snuffed."
You should try to have compassion not just for the unborn, but the already-born. The single woman born 20 years earlier, and with a bright future, who finds herself in a hopeless predicament. The 17-year old preparing for college faced but with dropping out and working at Wal-Mart instead. |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 2587
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 1:31 pm: |
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Both sides of the debate frequently reduce the opposing side to sound bites and assign glib opinions to them.
Monty, I vehemently disagree when you say "I do not believe than anyone opposed to abortion is seriously interested in the life of a fetus" Perhaps if you had qualified that somewhat, I might agree. But do you really believe deeply religious people, whose faith tells them a fetus is a person, do not care about it at all? If one believes that a fetus is a person, then I would hope that they would do everything they could to protect it.
One could just as easily say that the people in the US who say they are concerned with events in Darfur (or anyplace else where there are horrible crimes against humanity going on) are only interested in feeling morally superior.
I am pro-choice. But it is absurd to say that all people who are pro-life don't care about the unborn. I think there should be counseling available, that all options should be provided, and a woman should be given all the information.
cjc, you said that women would rather kill the fetus than some hypothetical procedure that could simply remove it from her womb. But given that you didn't given any indication as to how this "survey" was done, it's as absurd as Monty's claim above.
To me, the debate/discussion about abortion is not worth having, however, since no one will change their opinion. |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 823
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 7:54 pm: |
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Why can't we just pass a law that give women the right to post birth abortions. Say until the born fetus reaches 1 year of maturity. That way if her life is good she can continue to allow the born fetus to grow. If the born fetus has caused her to much hassle then she can use the new law to abort it. This would certainly help with the medical procedures that women must face and would keep them from these risky medical scenarios. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 4518
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 8:22 pm: |
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Presupposing of course that a one-year old has the same status as a human being as an embryo. Way to go, Jonathan Swift.
So I'll throw at you the same hypothetical that was thrown at a right-to-lifer on a radio program recently. You're in a burning fertility clinic, and in the room with you is a one-year-old baby, and a petri dish with five embryos. You only have time to save the baby, or the dish. Which do you choose?
Of course it's not fair -- but you have to confront the contradictions inherent in your argument. |
Montagnard
Citizen
Username: Montagnard
Post Number: 1905
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 9:44 pm: |
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Religious opponents of a woman's right to choose are the worst hypocrites of all. Outside they're all huffed up about the "life" of the fetus. Inside they're calling the woman a slut (and loving it). |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 825
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 10:17 pm: |
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tom,
Since I'm a man I don't have a right to decide who lives or dies. That is solely up to the women in our society. I'd let the ones who provide the eggs decide. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 4520
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 10:22 pm: |
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my stance precisely, thanks. the rest of our gender should adopt the same attitude. |
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