| Author |
Message |
    
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12867
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 8:03 am: | 
|
Too bad. He didn't suffer enough.
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/03/11/milosovic/
|
Duncan
Supporter
Username: Duncanrogers
Post Number: 5922
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 8:23 am: |
|
Tom, you don't strike me as the vengeful type.
But nonetheless, I agree. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12873
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 8:26 am: |
|
You're right. But I do wish for vengeance for people who commit crimes against an entire state, such as Milosevic and Ceaucescu. I imagine slow, painful deaths for them.
|
LibraryLady(ncjanow)
Supporter
Username: Librarylady
Post Number: 3096
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 8:32 am: |
|
Poisoned??? |
notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 3127
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 9:14 am: |
|
I'm amazed he lasted this long. I wonder if there was a price on his head? |
Duncan
Supporter
Username: Duncanrogers
Post Number: 5923
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 10:15 am: |
|
would only have to have been a cigarette or bar of chocolate. any port in a storm, as it were. |
marie
Citizen
Username: Marie
Post Number: 1407
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 12:42 pm: |
|
I wonder if Saddam likes chocolate... |
SO Ref
Citizen
Username: So_refugee
Post Number: 1563
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 2:45 pm: |
|
Slobo No Mo |
Scully
Citizen
Username: Scully
Post Number: 220
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 7:04 am: |
|
Wasn't brought to justice (or at least the process wasn't completed) but at least he died in a cell knowing that he wasn't getting away with it.
There is really no adequate way to punish monsters. |
Lester Jacobs
Citizen
Username: Lester
Post Number: 94
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 6:47 am: |
|
Too bad. He was one of the first European leaders to stand up to Islamic terrorists. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12887
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 7:26 am: |
|
I didn't know that, but I don't feel the genocide he committed makes up for it.
|
SO Ref
Citizen
Username: So_refugee
Post Number: 1573
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 7:49 am: |
|
And, I'm sure Hitler made sure trash was picked up on time... |
3ringale
Citizen
Username: Threeringale
Post Number: 83
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 8:31 am: |
|
Milsoevisc was just another thug running a small country that posed no threat to the US. So what was behind the bombing of Serbia in 1999? This guy nails it:
If the massive propaganda campaign against Milosevic had many facts behind it, he long ago would have been convicted at the Hague. What was the episode all about?
In my opinion, it was to establish the precedent, later to be employed in the Middle East, that the US government could demonize a head of state geographically distant from any legitimate "sphere of influence" and use military force to remove him. This is precisely the fate of Saddam Hussein, and the Bush regime still hopes to repeat the strategy in Iran and Syria.
Source:http://vdare.com/roberts/060312_serbia.htm
Cheers |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4133
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 8:50 am: |
|
That's not true. There were genuine concerns that the fighting in the Balkans could spread. Whether these concerns were valid or simply rooted in the history of the Balkans as the powderkeg of Europe, I don't know. Nevertheless, the concerns were valid.
Also, the spectacle of Kosovars being herded onto trains struck an especially sensitive nerve among Europeans. |
3ringale
Citizen
Username: Threeringale
Post Number: 84
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 9:09 am: |
|
tjohn,
I'm sure there was concern that the fighting in the Balkans might spread. My response is, so what? That would be a problem for the Europeans to deal with, not the United States. Milosevic did not threaten us in any way. So we had no business bombing them for 78 days. I wish I could find some sort of poll about Serbia and Iraq. My impression is that most people who support military action in one case, oppose it in the other case. I don't know anyone (other than myself) who opposed both of them. I suppose there are some neocons who supported both of them.
Cheers |
dave23
Citizen
Username: Dave23
Post Number: 1464
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 10:04 am: |
|
For some reason, many on the US right were great apologists for this guy. It's a sad day for the Lesters of the world. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12889
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 10:08 am: |
|
Oh, now I remember. The Muslims in the Balkans were the minority, wielding the least power of all ethnic groups. They were the victims of more violence more than they were the aggressors. I wouldn't claim they were guiltless. I suppose no group is. But equating them with those in the Middle East because they're both Muslim is like equating Filipinos with the French since they are both predominantly Catholic or the Germans with the Americans since we are both predominantly white.
Lester, are you for real?
|
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 2588
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 1:38 pm: |
|
3ring, that is the same argument that was made for not entering World War Two in Europe. Sometimes you do it just because it's the right thing to do, not because they are a threat to you personally.
By that same logic, if you were walking down the street and passed an alley where a woman was being mugged, you would simply ignore it and keep walking, and reason to yourself - "the mugger is busy with someone else. They're not threat to me." |
Lester Jacobs
Citizen
Username: Lester
Post Number: 95
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 5:17 pm: |
|
Keep in mind that the Kosovar Albanians and for that matter the Turks were staunch supporters of the Nazis when they invaded the Balkans. Serbia did nothing wrong except defend its people from insurgents. There was no genocide... just war casualties. Serbia is an Eastern Orthodox country. These stories were made up by the Vatican which has been trying to regain influence from the Orthodox church in that region for nearly 1000 years. During the Crusades instead of helping fellow Christians they sacked Constantinople, looted it, and left the Balkans open to invasion from the Muslims so that the Orthodox church would be destroyed. They weren't successful then, but they seem to still be trying. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12907
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 5:20 pm: |
|
Are you suggesting that people should be blamed for the actions of their ancestors?
|
Lester Jacobs
Citizen
Username: Lester
Post Number: 97
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 5:23 pm: |
|
I'm suggesting that Clinton backed the wrong side. |
Stevef
Citizen
Username: Stevef
Post Number: 175
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 5:25 pm: |
|
You mean NATO |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 4517
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 5:26 pm: |
|
You probably think FDR did, too. |
Lester Jacobs
Citizen
Username: Lester
Post Number: 99
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 5:32 pm: |
|
tom, don't insult my intelligence. That was a completely different situation. |
3ringale
Citizen
Username: Threeringale
Post Number: 85
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 6:14 pm: |
|
Rastro,
WWII started in September, 1939. We didn't get into it (officially) until December, 1941. I have read that as late as November, 1941, polls showed Americans wanted to stay out of it by a
4-1 margin. Obviously, Pearl Harbor changed things and something had to be done. FDR was hot to get us into the war in Europe, but he was stymied by public opinion and Congress. Pearl Harbor got us involved in Europe because Hitler was dumb enough to declare war on us. Setting aside the question of whether FDR had some prior
knowledge, (I tend to think so), what should we have done? Well, we had no choice but to engage Japan, but I think we could have stayed out of Europe. In fact, if Britain and France had stood united against Germany, Hitler might have turned on Stalin after he took Poland instead of waiting 2 years. Poland would get stepped on, but they were getting stepped on for 2-3 centuries. So in this scenario, Hitler and Stalin would have been beating each others brains out. A problem for the USA? Not in my opinion. I'm sure others will disagree.
I can't really accept your woman-mugged-in-the-alley example either. What I would do personally in a situation like that cannot be used as a criterion for a nation going to war. I have a Republican friend who keeps bringing up an example just like yours to convince me that my opposition to the war in Iraq is misguided. I just keep telling him I would gladly help the woman in the alley, but would not go halfway around the world fight against someone who poses no threat to me. I realize that mine is a minority point of view, but I'm used to it.
Cheers |
SO Ref
Citizen
Username: So_refugee
Post Number: 1574
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 6:26 pm: |
|
I don't think it's a minority view; Darfur, Liberia and Rwanda would suggest it's not.
It's a shame these countries don't have resources that would be in US "interests"... |
Grrrrrrrrrrr
Citizen
Username: Oldsctls67
Post Number: 389
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 12:00 am: |
|
SO Ref, I expected better. SO we take over Iraq...we gain another 5% of the world's oil production. I'm sure we're demonizing Chavez now so we can someday invade Venezuela and take a much bigger chunk of the world's oil production for our very own... |
SO Ref
Citizen
Username: So_refugee
Post Number: 1577
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 12:22 am: |
|
I wasn't holding forth that 3ring's opinion was "right", just that it doesn't appear to be a minority view. |
Grrrrrrrrrrr
Citizen
Username: Oldsctls67
Post Number: 391
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 12:51 am: |
|
Good...I smelled a "blood for oil" comment in there...lol! |
SO Ref
Citizen
Username: So_refugee
Post Number: 1580
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 12:57 am: |
|
Blood for oil is a strong statement; however, a country having a vast repository of resources seems to help "fuel" the process sometimes...
|
Lester Jacobs
Citizen
Username: Lester
Post Number: 101
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 7:08 am: |
|
Chavez is a threat to the US. He has openly embraced Fidel Castro. He should be dealt with next. We need to react the way we did in Chile back in the 70's. |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4134
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 10:35 am: |
|
You must be getting desperate for enemies if you count Chavez as a threat because he has embraced Fidel Castro. Chavez and Castro are more like the relatives that show up drunk and disorderly at your wedding than a threat. |
dave23
Citizen
Username: Dave23
Post Number: 1470
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 10:53 am: |
|
Lester,
You do realize that you advocate for a mass murderer, right? |
Lester Jacobs
Citizen
Username: Lester
Post Number: 102
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 12:24 pm: |
|
Are you guys anti-Israel as well? Some people could make the case the they are "mass murders" as well. Isn't Isreal in the same position that Serbia was in? |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12919
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 12:31 pm: |
|
Lester, I don't think we will reach peace if we focus on who is the good guy and who is the bad guy. I think it will come sooner if we all put down our guns.
|
Lester Jacobs
Citizen
Username: Lester
Post Number: 103
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 12:58 pm: |
|
Tom, the war between East and West has been going on more or less at least since the days of Alexander the Great. The religions have changed over the years, but middle east cultures (the arab countries, Persia and Pakistan/Northern India), have been resentful about Western culture for centuries. Islam was founded on the premise of destroying Western culture, and was spread "by the sword" (i.e. if you didn't convert you were killed). They will never put down their guns. The only way to end this is complete military domination of this part of the world so that the West can shape these failed cultures into something less virulent (i.e. Capitalist societies modeled after the US). W is smart enough to realize this, thus the campaign in Iraq and Afghanistan. Is he a "mass murderer" as well? |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 4523
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 2:11 pm: |
|
Or, we could build a giant spaceship, and load all of the middle easterners onto it, and shoot them at 10 times the speed of light to Alpha Centauri where they can colonize a planet.
That might be easier than your plan, which strikes me as somewhat not realistic. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12926
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 2:13 pm: |
|
So are you saying that W's goal is world domination? How come he hasn't come out and said it?
|
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 1740
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 2:14 pm: |
|
I thought Bush said he wasn't into nation building, Lester. I guess he was lying?? |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 4524
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 2:28 pm: |
|
Bush lying??? Say it ain't so!
ROTFLMAO |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12927
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 2:37 pm: |
|
He didn't lie; he flip-flopped.
|
dave23
Citizen
Username: Dave23
Post Number: 1474
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 2:56 pm: |
|
Lester,
Wow! So opposing Milosevic is tantamount to being anti-Israel (barely disguised code for anti-Semitic, as we all know.)
Being anti-Milosevic does not make me anti-Serb. It makes me anti-genocide.
|
Lester Jacobs
Citizen
Username: Lester
Post Number: 104
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 3:46 pm: |
|
Not world domination... just domination of the middle east. These are failed societies that have been problematic since ancient times. We also need to stabilize the oil fields and oil pipelines in that part of the world.
Concerning the Serbs, the charges of genocide were exxagerated (lies most likely spread by the Vatican to discredit Orthodox Christians - Similar to the charge that the Russians were behind the asasination attempt on the Pope). The Serbs fought NAZI loving Albanians to protect the Christian/Serbian minority in Kosovo. Isn't this the case in Israel when they kill Palestinians to protect Jewish settlers? Is this genocide as well? Let me ask you again - are you guys anti-Israel as well? |
Duncan
Supporter
Username: Duncanrogers
Post Number: 5938
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 3:49 pm: |
|
Wow that is some seriously twisted logic. |
dave23
Citizen
Username: Dave23
Post Number: 1477
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 4:03 pm: |
|
Oh my. Lester make me think of this thread from yesterday...
/discus/messages/10210/105609.html
What's he building in there... |
3ringale
Citizen
Username: Threeringale
Post Number: 86
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 4:47 pm: |
|
I'm not sure Iraq is a straight "blood for oil" deal. I think that the neo-cons are probably sincere about their grand plans to bring democracy to the middle east. I also think they are sincerely wrong.
I agree with Lester that there are failed cultures in the Middle East (by our standards). I disagree with Lester that we can shape them into anything to our liking. The more we try to shape them, the more they will hate us and attack us. I may be a naive isolationist, but I am convinced that a scrupulously neutral, non-interventionist foreign policy, secure borders and a fair trade policy would defuse a lot of the hostility towards America. I am not a pacifist, but it seems to me that our military actions in the last 50 years, (my age, for lack of a better benchmark) have not really made us more secure. Afghanistan in 2001 is a possible exception, but it's not looking too good at the moment.
To return to Milosevic, he was a bad guy. Maybe some of the charges against him were exaggerated or even falsified. I don't know, but I wouldn't be all that surprised. My point is just that it wasn't our fight and we were wrong to be involved in that conflict.
Cheers
|
3ringale
Citizen
Username: Threeringale
Post Number: 87
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 6:11 pm: |
|
PS Maybe Milosevic was actually not as bad as we have been led to believe. It's hard to disagree with this:
It is corrosive of the core values of western civilisation for the chief Hague prosecutor, Carla del Ponte, now to say that Milosevic escaped justice by dying, for this assumes that "justice" means not due process but a guilty verdict. The day we start to believe that we will have abandoned the rule of law completely.
Source:
1730274%2C00.html,http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1730274,00.html
Cheers
|
Duncan
Supporter
Username: Duncanrogers
Post Number: 5958
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 8:24 pm: |
|
I couldn't link to the article there 3ringale, but one could read the quote from another angle and say that del Ponte is genuine in saying that Milosevic escaped justice. The presumption seems to be that he would have been sentenced to death. When it might just as well be that the full course of justice didn't get to play out to whatever end there might have been. And while the evidence seems weighty toward conviction, it might be that it is the process of justice being dispensed that is the subject of del Ponte's musing.
Course, not knowing what other quotes exist from Carla del Ponte on the trial it is hard to say. |
3ringale
Citizen
Username: Threeringale
Post Number: 89
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 6:13 am: |
|
I don't know why that link turned out like that, but if you type in 0,,1730264,00.html after "story/", it works. Maybe it's anti-Milosevic gremlins?
Cheers |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 2612
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 3:09 pm: |
|
No, the software simply breaks it at the first comma, and some web sites use commas in their URLs. if you copy and paste the part from http:// on to the end into the address bar, you'll get the site. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 13001
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 3:10 pm: |
|
I highly recommend http://tinyurl.com
|
dougw
Citizen
Username: Dougw
Post Number: 761
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 3:24 pm: |
|
So I saw on the cover of NYT's the other day that Milosivec died in UN custody and in Moscow they protested in front of the US embassy?!?!
Do Russians equate the US with the UN? Did they protest in front of the French embassy? Does anyone else find this puzzeling? |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 2625
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 3:02 pm: |
|
Much of the world equates the UN with the US, particularly when it does something that they disagree with. Like it or not, we are viewed as the police to the world, and as if the UN is our private transnational enforcement agency. |
dave23
Citizen
Username: Dave23
Post Number: 1508
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 3:30 pm: |
|
For better and worse, the US does wield an inordinate amount of sway over the UN. |
3ringale
Citizen
Username: Threeringale
Post Number: 92
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 7:24 pm: |
|
dave23,
It's mostly for worse, all the more reason for us to detach ourselves from the UN, the world would be a better place.
Here is the correct url of the article I cited on Wednesday. I deactivated the url feature.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1730274,00.html
Cheers
|
Closed: New threads not accepted on this page