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Nohero
Supporter
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 5187
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 11:53 am: | 
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Your anti-terrorism dollars at work:
Quote:Two documents released today reveal that the FBI investigated gatherings of the Thomas Merton Center for Peace & Justice just because the organization opposed the war in Iraq. Although previously disclosed documents show that the FBI is retaining files on anti-war groups, these documents are the first to show conclusively that the rationale for FBI targeting is the group's opposition to the war.
“It makes no sense that the FBI would be spying on peace activists handing out flyers,” said Jim Kleissler, Executive Director of the Thomas Merton Center for Peace & Justice. “Our members were simply offering leaflets to passersby, legally and peacefully, and now they’re being investigated by a counter–terrorism unit. Something is seriously wrong in how our government determines who and what constitutes terrorism when peace activists find themselves targeted.”
According to the documents released today, the FBI initiated a classified investigation into the activities of the Thomas Merton Center, noting in a November 2002 memo that the center “holds daily leaflet distribution activities in downtown Pittsburgh and is currently focused on its opposition to the potential war on Iraq.” The synopsis of the document is provided to “report results of investigation on Pittsburgh anti-war activities.” The FBI memo points out that the Merton Center “is a left-wing organization advocating, among many political causes, pacifism.”
You can read more, and see the actual documents from the FBI, at this link. The only way to describe this, is that it is an outrage that this type of surveillance is going on.
I read this, and all I could think of was whether our local peace activists are in an FBI file somewhere, just because they also focus on opposition to the war in Iraq. And that also would be an outrage. |
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 1750
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 12:03 pm: |
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It's funny (not ha ha funny) that in another thread people were all over me for linking to a site that compared members of our government to fascists.
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
Hume |
Eats Shoots & Leaves
Citizen
Username: Mfpark
Post Number: 3120
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 12:05 pm: |
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When I filed an FOIA request for my file, the FBI wrote back to say that they needed more information in order to perform the search, such as any addresses I had over the last 10 years, aliases, drivers license number, social security number, and a listing of any groups I was affiliated with over the last 10 years.
Very effective way to get me to not pursue the issue any further! |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 5342
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 12:05 pm: |
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Makes sense. Earth Liberation Front has terrorists. And Kerry attended an anti-war 'peace' meeting in Kansas City where they spoke about snuffing a US Senator back during Viet Nam. I forgot some of his explanations on that. FBI was right to scout that out too.
Relax. As long as you don't advocate the violent overthrow of the government, communicate with terrorists or foreign government or entities hostile to the US or plan on assassinating someone, you should be fine.
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dave23
Citizen
Username: Dave23
Post Number: 1488
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 12:12 pm: |
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cjc,
Do you truly support the Federal government spying on the citizens that oppose its policies and actions?
By the way, I didn't see the ELF mentioned in the article and I don't see what Kerry has to do with this. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12956
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 12:14 pm: |
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ESL, are you serious!?
nohero, I'm tempted to attend a peace rally for the primary purpose of getting on a list, but that's something I could regret, n'est-ce pas?
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cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 5343
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 12:21 pm: |
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I have absolutely no problem with the US government doing lawful surveillance and yes -- spying -- on citizens and non-citizens who oppose the war.
Those examples I brought up show that within opposition groups who are 'all about peace' have engaged in or planned to engage in terrorism or other illegal activity. For those reasons I think the FBI should be on top of that. |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 920
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 12:21 pm: |
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Nohero - Sure they are. And it has always be so. People who are peace demonstrators are targets of law enforcement and FBI. It goes back to McCarthyism and witch hunting of communists.
There are many people out there with hundreds and thousands of FBI pages. If I were Paul I would get a freedom of information act request to the FBI for HIS pages.
The thing is it may be the function of the FBI to compile the data, after all peace demonstrators are demonstrating AGAINST the current policy of the government and are therefore tracked, their organizations infiltrated.
What is a problem is when the information gathered is used against these individuals as a form of retaliation. |
dave23
Citizen
Username: Dave23
Post Number: 1489
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 12:36 pm: |
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cjc,
Yes, there are extremists here and there. If you want to avoid all danger, I suggest you stock up on supplies and live the rest of your days in your basement.
You still have a greater chance of being struck by lightening than you do of being killed in a terrorist attack, so you better start writing letters to the Senate to find out what they are doing to protect us from electrical storms.
A true conservative would not advocate spying on its law-abiding citizens. A true conservative would not trust the government with the information they get at peaceful, lawful gatherings.
cjc, you seem like a nice guy, but I think you'd be much better off in a place like North Korea or Cuba where citizens live in fear of being "found out" even if they don't have an impulse to break the law.
Good luck. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 5344
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 1:05 pm: |
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Attending an open meeting and taking notes is not a threat to the law-abiding. If they are truly law-abiding, that will quickly present itself to the FBI and they will deploy their assets elsewhere. If you don't have extremist wackos in your group, they'll leave. It's not about being against Administration policies per se. They're not spying on Feingold for pete's sake.
Now, if it's a federal judicial nominee that has his FBI record opaquely referred to on the floor of the Senate by the Minority Leader, I could see you getting a little scared about the use of FBI files. Much of the information in an FBI file is raw uncorroborated information. But since that didn't warrant any concern on this board, I don't see how this should rise to the level of panic.
Peaceful groups that slash tires of military recruiters on campus probably deserve a look-see. Maybe even a note to their parents.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/03/15/MNG6MHOD1N1.DTL
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Nohero
Supporter
Username: Nohero
Post Number: 5189
Registered: 10-1999
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 1:16 pm: |
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Quote:If they are truly law-abiding, that will quickly present itself to the FBI and they will deploy their assets elsewhere.
The FBI file on the Merton Center shows years of surveillance. |
dave23
Citizen
Username: Dave23
Post Number: 1490
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 1:27 pm: |
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"Peaceful groups that slash tires of military recruiters on campus probably deserve a look-see. Maybe even a note to their parents."
Wow. So the government should tattle to the parents of adults? You've gone off the deep end.
You have nothing to fear if you obey. |
Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 854
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 1:27 pm: |
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I wonder how many peace demonstrations Timothy McVeigh attended? Does the FBI spy on NRA meetings too? Or are those folks just good patriots? |
Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 8888
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 1:28 pm: |
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If the Bush admin spent more time looking in the mirror they'd find most of the world's terrorists. |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 923
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 1:31 pm: |
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Dave - I think you should ask for you FOIA file as well. All these subversives on your website qualifies you for surviellance.
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cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 5345
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 1:32 pm: |
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You bet the FBI knows what's going on in the NRA.
Dave -- are you really Harry Belafonte? |
Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 8889
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 1:34 pm: |
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Why? Did Harry launch a war that's killing thousands and being used for terror recruitment? |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 12958
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 2:04 pm: |
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I have absolutely no problem with the US government doing lawful surveillance and yes -- spying -- on citizens and non-citizens who oppose the war.
Do I have to remind you that disagreement with the government is one of the most important forms of free speech? Neither does it imply unpatriotic sentiments.
Can you imagine the FBI collecting info on you if you wanted Clinton impeached?
Those examples I brought up show that within opposition groups who are 'all about peace' have engaged in or planned to engage in terrorism or other illegal activity. For those reasons I think the FBI should be on top of that.
And what percentage of peaceniks do you suppose are a danger to our country? And what do you think we should do with those who pose no danger?
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cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 5347
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 2:12 pm: |
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Tom Reingold -- we're talking about surveillance. That's it. The FBI can follow me all day and burn money needlessly if they want to.
The FBI wanted to impeach Clinton, so I was clear back then. The IRS gave me trouble during those years. Conservative non-profits were hit as well. Just coincidence.
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tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 4539
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 11:58 am: |
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well you must have considered that your due, if you're OK with the same things being done against liberal groups now.
But hey, if war is peace then peace is war. We have to monitor these peaceniks because they might get violent. That *@#!@ Thomas Merton, anyway. It's the pro-war groups who are really the peaceful ones. It's all part of the ignorance is strength initiative. |
Duncan
Supporter
Username: Duncanrogers
Post Number: 5967
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 12:16 pm: |
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Quote:They're not spying on Feingold for pete's sake
I lay 100-1 odds that they are. |
Grrrrrrrrrrr
Citizen
Username: Oldsctls67
Post Number: 406
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 3:36 pm: |
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Duncan, I wouldn't take 1000-1. Of course they are...lol! |
Foj
Citizen
Username: Foger
Post Number: 1008
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 10:16 pm: |
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Spying on Russ? LOL sure-- and how about spying on the UN before the Iraqi vote.
Lets call a spade a spade-- its called spying on ones political opposition.
And its against the law.
DO you support censure, or criminal activity?
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Grrrrrrrrrrr
Citizen
Username: Oldsctls67
Post Number: 408
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 2:50 pm: |
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Neither...every administration for the last 50 years has been involved in some sort of spying on their political opposition. That's what bothers me most about these boards...Granted, the current administration is an easy target, (I'd hope you guys would get tired of shooting fish in a barrel after a while), but most of the stuff going on now that you whine about has been done by every administration since at least Kennedy. Spying on political oppostition has gone on since FDR, but now you guys are all up in arms? I know, that still doesn't make it right, but come on! |
Tommy O'Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 13031
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 2:55 pm: |
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If the so-called whining has just started, then it makes sense to complain "what took you so long to start complaining?" but it makes no sense to say stop complaining. We should always object when that goes on. "He did it too" is a six-year-old's defense.
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Grrrrrrrrrrr
Citizen
Username: Oldsctls67
Post Number: 409
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 4:11 pm: |
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Tom, I'm clearly not using the "He did it too" defense. I just want to know what makes it "more wrong" now than before. |
dave23
Citizen
Username: Dave23
Post Number: 1510
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 4:22 pm: |
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Grrr,
The stakes are higher. If the Clinton admin did it, they sure weren't very good at it. Perhaps you don't remember, but we endured 8 years of 'scandal', some real, most not, all repeated ad nauseum by that administration's detractors and the mainstream media.
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tulip
Citizen
Username: Braveheart
Post Number: 3335
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 5:05 pm: |
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My son, the one who's picture you saw because he was trying to block recruiting on campus, is friends with Feingold's nephew.
Those kids haven't hurt anyone. And yes, they are sure they have files. My son will do the best he can, with or without a file. So will Feingold's nephew.
No one wants to overthrow the government. They have a vision of a more democratically-run government.
They are idealists.
You can't shoot them, or trap them, or torture or intimidate them for that, unless you are either a sadist, or a fascist, or both.
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Grrrrrrrrrrr
Citizen
Username: Oldsctls67
Post Number: 410
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 6:09 pm: |
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Yes Dave, I wasn't referring only to the Clinton era, but you're right. I believe we're in the "ad nauseum" part now. |
Foj
Citizen
Username: Foger
Post Number: 1023
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 10:08 pm: |
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I'm damn proud of my FBI file. I've worked hard to compile it. |
anon
Supporter
Username: Anon
Post Number: 2637
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 6:02 pm: |
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I am so glad that the level of crime in this country is so minimal that the FBI has time to monitor pacifists. |
tom connelly
Citizen
Username: Brightontom
Post Number: 34
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 8:14 pm: |
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The level of crime is controlled and everyone is monitored. When either of the aforementioned policies change, it'll be time to flee. |
Kiba
Citizen
Username: Radical_kiba
Post Number: 64
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 11:14 am: |
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Ever wonder if the government regrets the first amendment? :P |
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