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ina
Citizen
Username: Ina
Post Number: 321
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 2:32 pm: | 
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060320/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_fatal_raid:
Military Investigating Deadly Raid in Iraq
BAGHDAD, Iraq - After a roadside bomb killed a U.S. Marine in western Iraq, American troops went into nearby houses and shot dead 15 members of two families, including a 3-year-old-girl, residents told The Associated Press on Monday.
The military says about 12 Marines are under investigation for possible war crimes by the Naval Criminal Investigative Service following the Nov. 19 insurgent attack in Haditha, 140 miles northwest of Baghdad.
The allegations against the Marines were first brought forward by Time Magazine, which reported this week that it obtained a videotape two months ago taken by a Haditha journalism student that shows the dead still in their nightclothes.
The magazine report mirrored what was told independently to the AP by residents who described what happened as "a massacre."
A military spokeswoman said Monday the allegations were being taken "very seriously."
Khaled Ahmed Rsayef, whose brother and six other relatives were killed, said the roadside bomb exploded at about 7:15 a.m. in the al-Subhani neighborhood, heavily damaging a U.S. Humvee.
A U.S. military statement in November described it as an ambush on a joint U.S.-Iraqi patrol that left 15 civilians, eight insurgents and a U.S. Marine dead in the bombing and a subsequent firefight. The statement said the 15 civilians were killed by the blast, a claim residents denied.
They said the only shooting done after the bombing was by U.S. forces.
"American troops immediately cordoned off the area and raided two nearby houses, shooting at everyone inside," said Rsayef, who didn't witness the events but whose 15-year-old niece says she did. "It was a massacre in every sense of the word."
Rsayef and another resident, former city councilman Imad Jawad Hamza, who spoke with hospital officials and residents, said the first house to be stormed was that of Abdul-Hamid Hassan Ali, which was near the scene of the bombing.
Ali, 76, whose left leg was amputated years ago because of diabetes, died after being shot in the stomach and chest. His wife, Khamisa, 66, was shot in the back. Ali's son, Jahid, 43, was hit in the head and chest. Son Walid, 37, was burned to death after a grenade was thrown into his room, and a third son, 28-year-old Rashid, died after he was shot in the head and chest, Rsayef and Hamza said.
Also among the dead were son Walid's wife, Asma, 32, who was shot in the head, and their son Abdullah, 4, who was shot in the chest, Rsayef and Hamza said.
Walid's 8-year-old daughter, Iman, and his 6-year-old son, Abdul-Rahman, were wounded and U.S. troops took them to Baghdad for treatment. The only person who escaped unharmed was Walid's 5-month-old daughter, Asia. The three children now live with their maternal grandparents, Rsayef and Hamza said.
Rsayef said those killed in the second house were his brother Younis, 43, who was shot in the stomach and chest, the brother's wife Aida, 40, who was shot in the neck and chest while still in bed where she was recuperating from bladder surgery. Their 8-year-old son Mohammed bled to death after being shot in the right arm, Rsayef said.
Also killed were Younis's daughters, Nour, 14, who was shot in the head; Seba, 10, who was hit in the chest; Zeinab, 5, shot in the chest and stomach; and Aisha, 3, who was shot in the chest. Hoda Yassin, a visiting relative, was also killed, Rsayef and Hamza said.
The only survivor from Younis's family was his 15-year-old daughter Safa, who pretended she was dead. She is living with her grandparents, Rsayef said.
The troops then shot and killed four brothers who were walking in the street, Rsayef and Hamza said, identifying them as the sons of Ayed Ahmed — Marwan, Qahtan, Jamal and Chaseb.
U.S. troops also shot dead five men who were in a car near the scene, Hamza and Rsayef said. They identified the five as Khaled Ayad al-Zawi and his brother Wajdi as well as Mohammed Battal Mahmoud, Akram Hamid Flayeh and Ahmad Fanni Mosleh.
It was not clear if the nine men were involved in the attack as the military statement said.
According to the Defense Department, the Marine who was killed near Haditha that day was Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas, 20, of El Paso, Texas. He was assigned to 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force.
Dr. Walid al-Hadithi, chief physician at Haditha General Hospital, said that about midnight the day of the attack, two U.S. Humvees arrived at the hospital — one carrying the bodies of men and the other those of women and children.
"They (the Marines) told me the women and children were shot in their homes, and they added that the men were saboteurs," al-Hadithi said. He said he was given a total of 24 bodies. "All had bullet wounds."
Time said the available evidence did not prove the Marines deliberately killed civilians. The magazine, however, said its investigation showed that walls and ceilings in both houses were pockmarked with shrapnel and bullet holes as well as sprays of blood. The video did not show any bullet holes on the outside of the houses — holes that might support the military report of a gunbattle.
The military, after being shown the videotape in January, concluded civilians were killed by Marines, Time said, victims of "collateral damage."
A human rights group condemned the shooting of civilians in Haditha.
"Regrettably the American military goes too far in their strikes against civilians because they consider many civilian areas as targets," said Wail al-Tai of the Baghdad Center for Human Rights Studies.
Human Rights Minister Nirmeen Othman would not comment on the incident.
U.S. military spokeswoman Lt. Col. Michelle Martin-Hing issued a statement Monday in response to an e-mail query from the AP:
"We take these allegations very seriously, and I believe the fact that two additional investigations are ongoing concerning this incident clearly demonstrates that. The incident in question was the first in a series of engagements that day that began when the Marine patrol was ambushed in a residential neighborhood with an IED followed immediately by small arms fire from multiple directions."
Saying Marines tracked insurgents for more than five hours, Martin-Hing said "the investigation will examine whether any rules of engagement were violated in the Marines' response to the insurgent attack. We are committed to thoroughly investigating this incident."
Lt. Gen. Peter Chiarelli, the No. 2 U.S. commander in Iraq, said about 12 Marines were under investigation for possible war crimes in the incident. He said the case was referred to the Naval Criminal Investigative Service.
Still think the selling of this war was "a thing of beauty," whichever the hell one of our conservative posterboys made that breathtaking statement?
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Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 1821
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 2:35 pm: |
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The saddest thing about this it that we are engaged in a war of choice. It didn't have to be this way... |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 845
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 3:14 pm: |
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No, the saddest thing about this is a U.S. Marine was killed. |
dave23
Citizen
Username: Dave23
Post Number: 1546
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 3:19 pm: |
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"...American troops went into nearby houses and shot dead 15 members of two families, including a 3-year-old-girl..."
You're pretty messed up, Southerner.
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Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 847
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 3:34 pm: |
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My bad dave. I should have known you would celebrate the death of a U.S. Marine.
Listen, I can get you in touch with a Nigerian national who needs to get 33,500,000 USD out of the country. All he needs is your bank account information. Or you can peruse my 8 bridges I have for sale and give me an offer. |
Alleygater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 1403
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 3:36 pm: |
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Seriously Southerner, sometimes I don't get you. And I wasn't lying when I posted in the past, that you actually scare me. |
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 1823
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 3:38 pm: |
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He is freakin' scary. It's terrifying that we have to share our country with his kind... |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 1791
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 3:40 pm: |
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I'd love to see a show of hands among posters in these threads about how many have served or are now serving in the US armed forces.
I believe the answers would NOT surprise me.
I'll even start.
I served as an Infantry officer in the US Army.
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dave23
Citizen
Username: Dave23
Post Number: 1547
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 3:43 pm: |
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Right. Show me where I "celebrated" any death in that horror of a scene. Stick to your armchair political analysis. You appear to have no heart.
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bettyd
Citizen
Username: Badjtdso
Post Number: 164
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 3:46 pm: |
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A sad event no matter which way you look at it. It's sad because a marine died; it's also sad because our military claims some civilians died, victims of "collateral damage", including a 3 year old girl.
This stuff happens in a guerilla war, which is what this administration has gotten us into and which is difficult to win.
What a difficult position we have put our soldiers in: we want them to route the insurgents/terrorists (you know, those guys running around Iraq with the big T's on their uniforms, which denote them as terrorists), but also win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people. I feel for them. They must have a tough time distinguishing the peaceful Iraqi civilians who can be won over from those who want to blow them up on a daily basis. |
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 1825
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 4:03 pm: |
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Well, we are in the middle of a civil war that isn't ours to fight, although we sparked it.
Southerner, it's so, so pathetic that you think anyone would celebrate the death of a U.S. marine. That's truly disgusting. You should be ashamed. My God I'm glad you live outside civilized society. |
themp
Supporter
Username: Themp
Post Number: 2696
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 4:14 pm: |
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If true, suggests a morale breakdown. |
ina
Citizen
Username: Ina
Post Number: 322
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 4:15 pm: |
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I cannot imagine myself serving in any military. My father was drafted at age 16 to fight in Hilter's army. That left me with a huge distaste, for lack of a better word, for any military service, even for a democratic country. I don't mean to offend anyone with this; this is strictly about where I'm coming from. |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 1792
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 4:15 pm: |
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Robert Livingston:
We don't know the situation.
Perhaps Southerner has a record of military service or he may naturally be expressing sadness at the death of a fellow Marine. I know that I would.
Perhaps we'll hear more from Southerner about that. |
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 1827
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 4:25 pm: |
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Innis: It's not his expression of sadness over the death of a marine; it's that he assumed anyone here was "celebrating" that death. Simply repulsive. |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 1794
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 4:33 pm: |
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RL:
The point I'm trying to make, which may get lost on some, is that a good number of the proponents of the Iraq war have something in common with the Commander in Chief and the VP: that they never served on active duty in the military, but are most happy to have others do so.
They have a great deal of bravado, at 8,000 miles from the sharp end of the stick. |
llama
Citizen
Username: Llama
Post Number: 752
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 4:34 pm: |
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I understand Southerner. He does this only to insite because he lacks any intelligence. Cowards like him are actually lying to themselves, because they don't believe the crap they say, and if they do, well that's even more pathetic. |
Alleygater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 1405
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 4:52 pm: |
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Innis, I always wonder about the whole family serving nonsense. I see your point, but then I don't. The reason being is look at Bush who avoided his military duty so brazenly. Rich people and well connected people like Senators and Congress people, well their kids probably wouldn't see any action either. My point being, just because someone's family member is in the service doesn't mean that they are necessarily in harms way at all.
What is your point really, that they served or that they were actually fighting? |
Elgato
Citizen
Username: Elgato
Post Number: 37
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 5:10 pm: |
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Southerner should check out the children in the picture on the right on truthout today:
http://www.truthout.org/ |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 1798
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 5:20 pm: |
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Alleygater:
You and I are making somewhat the same point, but I believe we're coming at it from different points of departure.
I believe that I mentioned that the Commander in Chief (i.e., Bush) and his VEEP avoided military service, as did a lot of people with "connections."
I'll write this slowly. I maintain that most of the war proponents on this board have not served in the military, in harm's way or otherwise. Yet they are ready to have a war that others will die in.
People who serve in the military can always get in harm's way, regardless of their occupational specialty. As we have seen in Iraq, truck drivers get blown up by the same IED's as infantry riflemen do.
In the VietNam war, unsuspecting servicemen were blown apart in cafes in Saigon, as easily as guys who stepped on booby traps in the field.
End of message. |
Alleygater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 1406
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 9:28 pm: |
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Yeah, but people like Bush didn't even show up. The Congressmen's daughter in the Marines probably never even leaves the country during times of war. They just push paper, maybe. |
Free SLK!
Citizen
Username: Oldsctls67
Post Number: 445
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 9:59 pm: |
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"I'll write this slowly. I maintain that most of the war proponents on this board have not served in the military, in harm's way or otherwise. Yet they are ready to have a war that others will die in."
So...people who have not served in the armed forces are not allowed to support the war? How cowardly of me, for that reason alone I'd better rethink my position. What about my wife, who was on Chambers St. on 9/11? Is that close enough to harm's way for you? Is she allowed to support the war?
Innis, you're a smart guy, I expect that crap from RL or Hoops, but not you. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 4591
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 10:07 pm: |
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It's really easy, from where you sit, to talk about how worthwhile the sacrifice is. Isn't it? I believe that's Innis' point.
Supposedly we're sacrificing our own servicement to bring democracy and freedom to Iraq. At least that's the reason du jour. Something has badly gone wrong if some of us find it reasonable for us to kill small children to accomplish it. |
Free SLK!
Citizen
Username: Oldsctls67
Post Number: 446
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 10:13 pm: |
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Does anybody know what happened at My Lai? I really don't think the two incidents are similar other than the fact that civilians died.
Thanks Tom, I can't get Alice's Restaurant out of my head now. |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 849
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 10:16 pm: |
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tom,
We went into Iraq for oil. Don't you remember. You libs are so easily manipulated it's hilarious. These news agencies are just laughing at you. Did you hear the latest. The U.S. military also shut down a teddy bear factory and shot the Easter bunny. I think we should have a peace march or something. And yes, it is disgusting that so many of you so easily dismiss the death of a Marine. Then again, we all know where you stand. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 4595
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 10:32 pm: |
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We've got servicemen dying every day in Iraq, yet for some reason I haven't seen your daily posts about how terrible it is. Do you only notice when there's a three-year-old dead too?
If you so mourn each and every combat death, you should consider going to the next peace march yourself. |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 1800
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 10:46 pm: |
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Free SLK, or whoever that is:
I expect that you would support the war against the terrorists who were responsible for 9/11 and 2/93 whether or not you served in the military.
I did not say that those who did not serve are not allowed to support the war against terrorists.
I don't know how you would have arrived at that rather insipid and poorly thought out conclusion.
If, however, you are Scrotis under a new screen name, you should know that I am accustomed to that insipid stuff from you. Maybe it's your reading skills, or that bronze medal you won in the jumping to conclusions event in playschool.
In any case, I did make the point and am willing to bet that from the president on down, many supporters of the war in Iraq have never served, or are not serving, but are willing to see others make the sacrifice. As I said, I sense a lot of bravado and tough talk 8,000 miles from the sharp end of the stick.
I am all for an all-out military effort to end terrorism.
But we're not making that all-out effort: we haven't pursued the terrorists behind 9/11 and a number of subsequent attacks in Europe since we dropped the ball in Afghanistan (which by the way is back in the hands of the opium lords who are rolling the heroin onto our streets again).
Those making the sacrifice that you "support" in Iraq are NOT in pursuit of the people behind 9/11.
They are fighting a holding action and wasting lives, time, and resources.
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Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 1801
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 10:48 pm: |
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If yo want to know what happened at My Lai, google Seymour Hersh or buy his My Lai 4. |
Free SLK!
Citizen
Username: Oldsctls67
Post Number: 447
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 11:32 pm: |
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Innis,
I am not SLK. He has been suspended as we all know. I merely changed my screen name to point out the double standard that exists in policing the offensiveness of these posts.
How differently would you feel about the war if that dopey Bush Nephew was doing that interview Saturday Morning from his post in Iraq? Would you have more respect for the President's opinions on the war if a Bush relative were "putting his money where his mouth is" near the sharp end of the stick?
I wasn't equating the war on terror with the war in Iraq. While I believe they are related, I will concede they are not the same thing. I simply disagree with your assertion that one is a coward if they have not served, but yet support the war. That would be as silly as my stating that anti-war activists are against war because they're afraid they might be in harm's way someday.
I did read My Lai 4 about 20 years ago...Until I see some sort of official accounting of the incident in Iraq, I still view it as "collateral damage" not a massacre of innocents.
I ordered the Phillips book...Hopefully I'll be able to get into it this weekend. |
ina
Citizen
Username: Ina
Post Number: 323
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 11:34 pm: |
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Civilians "died" after being slaughtered, by US troops, at My Lai and just the other day in Iraq. |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 1804
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 11:56 pm: |
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Free SLK:
I thank you for your reply.
Will you kindly point out to me where I wrote the "assertion that one is a coward if they have not served, but yet support the war"? (I'm quoting you there.)
I never asserted that anyone was a coward who is not serving or did not serve.
I used the word "bravado" to describe supporters of this war "8000 miles away from the sharp end of the stick."
Bravado means blustering, swaggering, and it also means foolhardy.
With all due respect, maybe your problem is with reading comprehension?
Yes, I would respect the President's "intentions" more if someone in his family, or the VEEP's, believed in the "spreading of liberty and democracy" enough to serve.
As we say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
I have no knowledge of what might have happened in Iraq the other day or whether it might or might not have any parallel to My Lai. But I know plenty about incidents like My Lai. |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 1805
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 12:18 am: |
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Free SLK:
I have it. I really have it.
I re-read your posting above from 9:59: you're the one who accuses yourself of being cowardly, and then you pin it on me. You devious double-identity, you.
I quote your very own words:
"So...people who have not served in the armed forces are not allowed to support the war? How cowardly of me, for that reason alone I'd better rethink my position. What about my wife, who was on Chambers St. on 9/11? Is that close enough to harm's way for you? Is she allowed to support the war?"
You're a sly, insidious one there, Free SLK.
But you should read more thoroughly, and you should make a better attempt to recall your own words.
You're as confused about your own words as the President is about which war to fight.
Good night, Scrotey.
IMHO.
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Free SLK!
Citizen
Username: Oldsctls67
Post Number: 449
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 12:18 am: |
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bravado
One entry found for bravado.
Main Entry: bra·va·do
Pronunciation: br&-'vä-(")dO
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -does or -dos
Etymology: Middle French bravade & Old Spanish bravata, from Old Italian bravata, from bravare to challenge, show off, from bravo
1 a : blustering swaggering conduct b : a pretense of bravery
2 : the quality or state of being foolhardy
Maybe it's a question of interpretation rather than comprehension...I can deal with that.
As I've stated previously, I don't want to engage in discussions regarding Iraq war because I'll probably be in agreement with you on many points. Based on my interpretation of your statement I had an issue with your logic, that's all. I consider this matter now to be sttled.}
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Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 1806
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 12:20 am: |
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Free SLK:
Read my posting immediately above yours to see what a settled matter really looks like. |
Free SLK!
Citizen
Username: Oldsctls67
Post Number: 450
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 12:25 am: |
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I don't think you caught the sarcasm... |
K_soze
Citizen
Username: K_soze
Post Number: 7
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 12:44 am: |
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First off, IF these soldiers are found to have actually committed "war crimes" (which is a whole other discussion) then they should be held accountable & prosecuted to the fullest extent.
Although he takes a hard line approach to convey his points, I agree with southerner.
With the exception of inn's volunteer'd info, there is NOT ONE person here who knows jack •••• about fighting a war, no one knows about wearing 70 lbs of gear all day and watching your back all day (not to mention the backs of your brothers/sisters) and living in high stress situations and the wearing it does on your mind. NO ONE knows anything about combat, how it goes down, how it's avoided, when to engage or not. So lets say (for argument's sake) you're patrolling with your squad, for the last X amount of months you haven't taken a breath without evaluating everything around you, the guy you came up with gets killed, you have reason to believe the person(s) responsible are in an isolated location, you advance on that (assuming everyone here knows how to do so ) you have thoughts and emotions running wild, maybe you're scared, probably mad, bottom line is no matter how prepared you've made yourself, you have no clue what's around the next corner, & unfortunately there are too many variables as to why this situation ended the way it did.
And that's what this is about period. What (IMO) upsets southerner is how so may are so quick to use this as ammo for their political stance. There's so much other crap you (dems, libs, Republican bush haters) can start threads on, why use the death of a soldier and/or civilians ?
INA, the first line in your first post is "Military Investigating Deadly Raid in Iraq" yet you last post confirms "Civilians "died" after being slaughtered, by US troops, at My Lai and just the other day in Iraq". Sounds to me that you let your opposition to the current administration decide for us that these troops are cold blooded murderers. (hey, maybe they were given the word directly from W )
all this and I don't even like bush |
K_soze
Citizen
Username: K_soze
Post Number: 8
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 12:51 am: |
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...any more |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 11020
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 4:48 am: |
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I don't know what happened, but the guys I have talked to, including career officers, who have served in Iraq express frustration with being a target for IEDs and the tactics that continue to expose them to these devices. Essentially the troops are drawing fire to locate insurgents and terrorists.
I think Southerner's point is that the Marines may have retaliated based on anger about one of their numbers being killed and reacted out of this anger and frustration. Is this right? No. Is it understandable? Yes. |
Alleygater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 1408
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 9:47 am: |
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Kaiser said:
Quote:IF these soldiers are found to have actually committed "war crimes"
You saw all the Abu Graib trials. These people get off no matter how much evidence there is. Don't get me wrong, I think they SHOULD get off, because their superior officers are the ones that should be going to Jail (and by superior officers I DO MEAN the president and vice president). Bottom line is, the military ALWAYS HAVE and ALWAYS WILL watch out for their own and that is why these people continually avoid prosecution. |
Guy
Supporter
Username: Vandalay
Post Number: 1697
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 9:54 am: |
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Alley, the military watches out for us too. |
Alleygater
Citizen
Username: Alleygater
Post Number: 1410
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 9:59 am: |
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Sometimes. But only if their commanding officer tells them to...I mean there is a very specific chain of command. Was the military watching out for the kids in Berkely and Ohio State? |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 970
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 10:36 am: |
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Grrrr - you said
"So...people who have not served in the armed forces are not allowed to support the war? How cowardly of me, for that reason alone I'd better rethink my position. What about my wife, who was on Chambers St. on 9/11? Is that close enough to harm's way for you? Is she allowed to support the war?
Innis, you're a smart guy, I expect that crap from RL or Hoops, but not you."
My wife was on Church street when the planes hit. Many in my family live in lower Manhattan. What does that have to do with the issues that Innis raised. In fact Grrr I defy you to find even one time where I pointed a finger at anyone who didnt serve as being cowardly or in some way unpatriotic.
I never served in the armed forces. I missed out on the draft by 1 year and never saw a need to enlist. I dont need to justify my anti-war stance by saying I am a veteran. I respect those who serve in the armed forces and I respect those who chose not to. It doesnt give your position more weight either way in my book.
What is an issue is that in the big picture, these are small tragedies. If our soldiers were out of control and killed those people they should be punished.
In choosing to go to a PREEMPTIVE, UPROVOKED, war this administration decided to shock and awe. Well if you think innocent lives were not lost then, you should reconsider. Weve killed thousands of innocent civilians in the name of 'democracy'.
Thousands. Say the word Grrr. Those were men, women and children who could care less about what we do here in America on a daily basis, who just went about their business of living their lives. Innocent. Say the word Grrr.
Its small potatoes. I was all in favor of going after Osama Bin Laden and his henchmen. All in favor of the invasion of Afghanistan in order to stomp out the murderous scoundrels responsible for bombing my city. Bush attempted to get him, to his credit, but to his everlasting infamy he stopped and turned this into a crusade for permanent bases in Iraq.
Iraq had ZERO to do with 9/11. Those people we bombed are never going to come back. The relatives of those thousands are NEVER going to forgive. I know I never will forgive Bin Laden. |
Southerner
Citizen
Username: Southerner
Post Number: 851
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 10:38 am: |
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How about this. No one knows what happened, yet American Liberals all take at face value what they are fed by the international press. And their highly complex thought patterns leads them to the quick result that the Marines were in the wrong. Maybe they did step out of bounds, or maybe we are only getting half truths from the media. I'll side with U.S. Marines any day if a question arises. As far as I am concerned, these Marines killed multiple enemy fighters (call them what you want - insurgents, terrorists, freedom fighters, it doesn't matter). And if these enemy fighters lacked the compassion to engage in combat in a children free zone then the deaths are on them. It is threads like this that allows the liberal mentality to shine bright for the nation to see. In November the country will respond in the proper fashion. |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4157
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 10:41 am: |
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Let's not make this about our soldiers. The Armed Forces can and should always work to ensure that our military behaves correctly. And, I actually believe that most officers care about this sort of thing.
But the fact remains that these sorts of things happen in war. And when the purpose of the war is to win hearts and minds, these incidents are very damaging.
It all comes back to the leadership that thought this war was a good idea. Given our traditional intolerance for long wars, given that inhumanity is a companion of war, given so many things, I don't see how anybody thought invading Iraq was a good idea. But evidently a lot of people thought it was a good idea. |
dave23
Citizen
Username: Dave23
Post Number: 1549
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 10:45 am: |
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Southerner,
I was agreeing with your natural skepticism, and then you wrote this: "As far as I am concerned, these Marines killed multiple enemy fighters...."
So, yes, even you choose to believe what you want to be true. (And if you believe everything the military tells you, then you are even further gone than I'd thought.)
Of course, you are the guy who said I "celebrated" the death of a marine simply because I thought the alleged murder of a three-year-old was a bad thing. |
Duncan
Supporter
Username: Duncanrogers
Post Number: 6055
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 11:17 am: |
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Southerner, RL...why does there have to be a "Saddest" anything? Good God, people are dying over there, on both sides.
Southerner you say "these Marines killed multiple enemy fighters"... who were, apparently found in their pajamas. Hard to hide weaponry underneath your underoos. Especially when you are 6 or 8 years old.
Are you so freaking blinded by the right that you cannot see the horror inflicted on both sides? Are all Iraqi's withing 50 yards of an explosion immediately "enemy fighters"?
It sucks that a Marine died. They are dying everyday in horrific fashion. But is also sucks that a three year old kid was shot to death as a result.
Why does one have to be the saddest, or worst, or most terrible. THE BOTH SUCK.
And, if you must have superlatives, the worst thing about it is that the US Marines shouldn't even have to be there. |
Robert Livingston
Citizen
Username: Rob_livingston
Post Number: 1828
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 11:21 am: |
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"Good God, people are dying over there, on both sides."
"the worst thing about it is that the US Marines shouldn't even have to be there."
That was my point with my original post in the thread. Such needless death everywhere when you engage in a war of choice.
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bettyd
Citizen
Username: Badjtdso
Post Number: 167
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 2:35 pm: |
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Let's see how the investigation plays out. Now that we've put our men and women in such a precarious position where we are asking them to kill the "enemy" but also win the hearts and minds of the people, our credibility (which has taken many hits thanks to Bush, Cheney and Rummy) is important.
Whatever happened must be accurately reported by military investigators. The US military can hardly afford another "Pat Tillman died storming a hill and was killed by enemy fire" or Jessica Lynch scenario. |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 1807
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 2:35 pm: |
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Free SLK:
From your posts above:
"I don't think you caught the sarcasm..."
"Maybe it's a question of interpretation rather than comprehension...I can deal with that."
My responses are:
Writing sarcasm takes a bit more brain power, consistency, and clarity of thought than I've seen in your posts;
You didn't understand (comprehend) the word so you felt free to misinterpret it and misrepresent my words. It was therefore a good idea you had to have looked it up and found its meanings. Not that it's helped you any.
It seems that you still don't get it.
Maybe if you stayed with just one screen name, you could sort all this and focus your efforts on clarity of thought and of word. |
Free SLK!
Citizen
Username: Oldsctls67
Post Number: 451
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 3:08 pm: |
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Wow, I can't even backtrack and offer up an olive branch...This is a tough room.
You are right about a couple of things...I do not put a great deal of thought into what I post here. In order to run with the big dogs maybe I should. I read something, I react to it, a lot of times late at night when I should be asleep...lol! Maybe because of the career path I've chosen in life my brain has begun to slowly turn to mush. I spend most of my day making sure vendors/contractors aren't trying to screw me, not thinking about foreign policy or social reforms. Maybe your carefully worded way of calling me dumb is not all wrong. Again, I can deal with that. I'm not the same person I was in college. I've had success engaging you in discussions previously because I felt like I actually learned something from you. I don't like what is happening with the current administration either. Who can truthfully say that they do? Maybe I barked a bit too loud in my initial post last night. I stand now with head bowed in utter supplication.
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Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 1809
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 3:14 pm: |
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Ite. Missa Est. |
Free SLK!
Citizen
Username: Oldsctls67
Post Number: 452
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 3:18 pm: |
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Deo gratias |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 1812
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 3:31 pm: |
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Intelligenti pauca. |
Free SLK!
Citizen
Username: Oldsctls67
Post Number: 453
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 3:42 pm: |
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You might have me on this one...St. Augustine? |
Free SLK!
Citizen
Username: Oldsctls67
Post Number: 454
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 3:47 pm: |
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http://www.ev0lution.co.uk/albums/wallpapers/Intelligenti%20pauca.jpg |
Innisowen
Citizen
Username: Innisowen
Post Number: 1814
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 4:12 pm: |
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Attribution uncertain, but probably not Augustine. Could go back to classical Latin, or maybe Red Skelton, Robin Williams, or Adam Sandler.
In any case, Jorge Eduardo Rivera Cruchaga's article in Poiesis (University of Chile, Santiago, 1997) may shed some light on the meaning for you:
"Veámoslo: intelligenti pauca". Hacemos lo propuesto: "al inteligente..." - ¿cómo traducir "pauca"? En español no hay neutro plural. Nos quedan dos posibilidades; 1° un neutro singular: "poco", que, por lo demás, se parece morfológicamente muchísimo a "pauca", y 2° una circunlocución: "pocas cosas", que es muy normal en español.
El orden, en este caso, es igual al del latín:
"Al inteligente, poco", o bien, "al inteligente, pocas cosas" ¿Se entiende? Con un poco de buena voluntad, uno descubre fácilmente de qué se trata: "al inteligente le basta un poco; él descubre lo demás".
Sin embargo... comparemos esa traducción con la traducción popular existente: "A buen entendedor, pocas palabras". A mi juicio, ésta es una buena, una excelente traducción; en cambio, aquélla no. ¿Por qué?
1° "Intelligens" no es igual (pese a la semejanza morfológica) a "Inteligente". "Inteligente", en español, se opone a "tonto". Es una cualidad permanente. Una persona inteligente, lo es "por naturaleza". En cambio, en latín "intelligens" es escuchado como participio presente en significación verbal, esto es, "intelligens" es el que está inteligiendo, el que está comprendiendo. Y lo que "resuena" por debajo, tácitamente, es que está comprendiendo porque quiere comprender. O sea, exactamente: el "buen entendedor". "Buen entendedor" no es el que lo es siempre, sino el que hic et nunc tiene bien abiertos los oídos del entendimiento.
2° "Pauca", tomado aisladamente y en abstracto, significa "poco" (con significación plural) o "pocas cosas". Pero, lo que le basta al intelligens no son pocas cosas, así en general, sino "pocas palabras". "Intelligenti pauca" se dice cuando el que habla habla cifradamente o en estilo lacónico. O, incluso, cuando las "palabras" que dice no son pronunciadas con la boca, sino "indicadas" con gestos o insinuaciones. No es que en el dicho latino esté "tácita" la palabra "verba" ("Intelligenti pauca verba"). En este dicho no hay nada "tácito". La teoría de lo "tácito" es una construcción intelectual. No. Lo que pasa es que "pauca" tiene en latín una amplitud que en español no posee el vocablo "poco" y, menos aun, "pocas cosas". Es una amplitud semántica o una "fuerza significante" que no deja lugar a "tacitudes", pero que dice las cosas precisamente así: ampliamente. Es justamente el genio de la lengua latina."
Maybe it was Red Skelton after all. In any case, it's great Latin, short, sweet, to the point. |
Free SLK!
Citizen
Username: Oldsctls67
Post Number: 455
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 4:39 pm: |
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It would make a good toast over a couple of pints! |
Montagnard
Citizen
Username: Montagnard
Post Number: 1915
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 8:47 pm: |
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The conventional army loses if it does not win. The guerrilla wins if he does not lose.
ATTRIBUTION: Henry Kissinger (b. 1923), U.S. Republican politician, secretary of state. quoted in Foreign Affairs (New York, Jan. 1969).
On the war in Vietnam - but it applies equally well to the impending U.S. defeat in Iraq.
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