| Author | Message | ||
     The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 1690 Registered: 3-2004  |
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/14155275.htm?source=yahoodist&cont ent=ksc_news http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/401871p-340392c.html | ||
| Fruitcake Citizen Username: Fruitcake Post Number: 269 Registered: 9-2003 |
Libertarian, Soon enough, you will be just like Winston Smith. You will learn to love Big Brother. Why fight it? | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5415 Registered: 8-2003 |
I understand the issue of losing liberties and I take it that's what is meant by the title of your thread, Libertarian. How are the two stories here examples of that? | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 1691 Registered: 3-2004 |
you dont see how either one of those stories represents a loss of liberty?!?!?!?! amazing! | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5418 Registered: 8-2003 |
Libertarian -- I can construct arguments on both sides of the issue, but I'm not interested in mine. I'm interested in yours. That's why I asked. Never mind. | ||
| SO Ref Citizen Username: So_refugee Post Number: 1608 Registered: 2-2005  |
Texas arresting people in bars for being drunk Read the MSNBC Article _______________________________________ Next, Texas to ban drinking in bars... | ||
| Free SLK! Citizen Username: Oldsctls67 Post Number: 444 Registered: 11-2002  |
Texas has a lot of dry counties/towns. I lived near Dallas for a bit and belonged to a couple of social clubs... | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 1694 Registered: 3-2004 |
Libertarian -- I can construct arguments on both sides of the issue, but I'm not interested in mine. I'm interested in yours. That's why I asked. Never mind. no, what you asked is how either of those stories are an example of a creeping loss of liberty. it seems so completely obvious that i still am amazed that you asked. | ||
| frannyfree Citizen Username: Frannyfree Post Number: 175 Registered: 1-2004 |
Some people do not see the loss of freedom until it direclty interferes with thier daily life. But then it's too late. | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5420 Registered: 8-2003 |
Well then it surely should be easy you to answer these questions: What liberty is extinguished when a city posts an officer on a street or up in a building with binoculars to watch activity versus installing a camera that provides the same activity? And when a law officer is on the street peering at activity, is someone's liberty being extinguished at that moment in time? And what law or right is violated by taking fingerprints? Unreasonable search? | ||
| dave23 Citizen Username: Dave23 Post Number: 1554 Registered: 5-2001 |
cjc will defend government intrusion into private lives until his last breath. He opposes liberty and hates freedom. | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5422 Registered: 8-2003 |
Based on what, dave23? Take a shot at my questions then, rather than a generalized non-specific and entirely unconvincing slam. Have you had your coffee yet today? Pick up your game. | ||
| dave23 Citizen Username: Dave23 Post Number: 1555 Registered: 5-2001 |
Based on much of what you've posted. You are untroubled at the thought of being hounded by police (the law enforcement arm of the government). I admit to having an antipathy toward big-government conservatives. | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 4606 Registered: 5-2001 |
Don't worry, big-government conservatives will change their stripes, and rather abruptly, next time a Democrat is elected President. | ||
| johnny Citizen Username: Johnny Post Number: 1596 Registered: 5-2001 |
IMO, the fingerprinting of people who have been pulled over is b.s. If I'm doing 45 mph in a 30 zone, just give me a ticket and run my plates and info through the computer... no need to fingerprint me. A major invasion of privacy and it sort of defeats the purpose of having to produce a license, registration, and insurance. They also said that prints from the field wouldn't be stored in their computer... yeah right. And I'll sell you a bridge in Brooklyn. As for the camera story. Mixed feelings on this one. I can see both sides of the argument. The story about bars in Texas is ridiculous. Talk about entrapment, I predict a few lawsuits coming out of that policy. I especially loved the quotes at the end of the article about drunk people and the dangerous stuff they do like "trying to jump off a balcony into a pool and missing." Classic. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 11028 Registered: 5-2001 |
All this could be solved if we all had implanted chips. These could take the place of credit cards, EZ Pass, library cards, train tickets and a lot of other things. I think the fact that the government could track us is more than made up by the convenience!!! If you haven't done anything illegal, who cares who knows where you are. | ||
| dave23 Citizen Username: Dave23 Post Number: 1556 Registered: 5-2001 |
Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it. -George Bernard Shaw | ||
| Duncan Supporter Username: Duncanrogers Post Number: 6060 Registered: 12-2001  |
If I am pulled over for having a taillight out then the Kansas City cops finger print me I HAVE A MAJOR PROBLEM WITH THAT and if you don't then all hope is lost. I am not as crazed by the cameras in NYC but I don't want to get into a relative loss of liberty debate. But fingerprinting someone when pulled over crosses and unacceptable line. | ||
| themp Supporter Username: Themp Post Number: 2700 Registered: 12-2001  |
A friend's mom recently got pulled over. She was in her 60's, a mother of 5, a lifelong republican, member of the garden club and an avid knitter. She told the officer she had to get her purse out of the trunk to show him her license. She had left it there with the groceries. He told her to stay in her car until backup arrived. This was in Malvern, PA. Something is happening in terms of criminalizing minor civil infractions and creating a culture where absolute unquestioning compliance with law enforcement is expected. It is hard to put your finger on, but it started with a lot of the zero tolerance nonsense in the 80's. Remember when the Reagan administration wanted to seize property regardless of its value if drugs were found there, regardless of the quantity? So if you rented an apartment in your building to some guy...etc. When they found that the officers who beat Rodney King hadn't used excessive force, I got the same vibe. | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 1698 Registered: 3-2004 |
If you haven't done anything illegal, who cares who knows where you are. it is people with this viewpoint that terrify me. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1411 Registered: 10-2004 |
Big Brother here we come. | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 1699 Registered: 3-2004 |
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.- Ben Franklin | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1413 Registered: 10-2004 |
The quote is actually: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Benjamin Franklin If you search the quote on google there is some speculation that BF never actually said it. But oh well. I still agree with the sentiment. | ||
| argon_smythe Citizen Username: Argon_smythe Post Number: 796 Registered: 5-2001 |
Why don't they just tag us all like animals and be done with it already? Most of us wouldn't mind especially if it would keep the boogeyman at bay, and many would probably choose to accessorize the device with fun "skins" and whatnot. | ||
| dave23 Citizen Username: Dave23 Post Number: 1557 Registered: 5-2001 |
you will obey  | ||
| frannyfree Citizen Username: Frannyfree Post Number: 176 Registered: 1-2004 |
cjc....when a policeman is posted,he is there to keep the peace. When a camera is posted, it is just for being able to use later..later..or whenever the gov decides to use it. A VERY big difference. Our files are getting bigger and bigger. YOUR WORLD. I would opt out if I could. They can already track our movements via easypass. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13169 Registered: 1-2003  |
A fingerprint is a little different from other bits of information. It divulges nothing about us except who we are. I'm not sure where to go with that fact, but I find it interesting. But I do, in general, object to these erosions of our liberties. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 11031 Registered: 5-2001 |
Cops have to be careful. Ever hear of Ma Barker and her gang? The officer probably should have cuffed her while waiting for backup. The chip idea is great. It would do away with most crime. There would be sensors on the street, in buildings and in banks. Who is going to rob a bank if they are instantly identified by their chip? Sorry I don't buy what that old guy Franklin said. | ||
| gj1 Citizen Username: Gj1 Post Number: 318 Registered: 11-2003 |
Hey Lib - you know there is a proposal put forward by the Mayor to install surveillance cameras in Maplewood, including Ricalton Square, right? | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 11033 Registered: 5-2001 |
Duncan, if you had the chip when you were pulled over, the cop would just scan it, check the 'puter and if you were not wanted or had any overdue child support payments you would be on your way, with a big ticket, in a few minutes. Remember, security is freedom. | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 1700 Registered: 3-2004 |
But I do, in general, object to these erosions of our liberties. you have taken an opposite stance in many threads. you cant pick and choose your liberties. Hey Lib - you know there is a proposal put forward by the Mayor to install surveillance cameras in Maplewood, including Ricalton Square, right? i did not know this. either i am stupid or lazy but i cant seem to find info on town meetings and their agendas. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13174 Registered: 1-2003 |
you have taken an opposite stance in many threads. you cant pick and choose your liberties. What do you want me to do? Champion the abolishment of all liberties, merely because I don't perceive all your fears as threats? We don't have to agree on everything to agree on one thing. The fingerprinting thing makes me queasy but I can't put my finger on why. It's easy to imagine how the government (and others) can abuse the cameras, though they're going to catch our behavior which is already in plain sight. But the problem with cameras is that it might make gathering information much easier. Does it make you uncomfortable that I agree with you on some things? And how do you feel about partial agreement? Would you feel better if we disagreed purely, all the time? | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 1701 Registered: 3-2004 |
you say that losing some liberties make you "queasy", but in other threads you advocate the loss of liberties as long as the lost freedom is something that inconveniences you. your agreement to these lost freedoms makes you a part of the problem as i see it. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13177 Registered: 1-2003 |
Yes, I'm part of the problem when I am not troubled by the loss of liberties that you want to keep. But I am part of the solution when I object to the loss of liberties. You haven't answered my questions. | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 1703 Registered: 3-2004 |
your questions are peurile and off topic. my point is that you advocate the loss of liberty in some instances and then decry it in others. you are acting in a contrarian and hypocritical manner. your idea of liberty is those things that only directly affect you. any freedom that is inconvenient to you can be curtailed in your world. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13179 Registered: 1-2003 |
OK, so I'm useless to you even when we're on the same side. Maybe it's better that way. You mischaracterize my views, and you don't have permission to characterize them in the first place. I won't do the same with you, because it's a so-called common courtesy. I don't think it's too much to ask you not to cross that line with me. | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 1706 Registered: 3-2004 |
you mischaracterize my views all the time!! i am only stating a fact. you advocate restrictions on freedoms that do not affect you. there is proof of that in threads in this very forum. sorry if you are finding the truth to be a painful mistress. you are only for liberty on issues that directly affect you. you are no champion of liberty. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13180 Registered: 1-2003 |
I use words such as "it appears that you feel ..." and "it seems" and "correct me if I'm wrong." You'll find that in the record, too. Where I fail to say that, I apologize for that. You seem sure that you have me pegged, but I'm the authority on how I feel. No one else is. I'm sure I don't have you pegged. | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 1707 Registered: 3-2004 |
life is all about perception. my perception of you is the true you in my world. how you perceive yourself is the true you to you. those two do not have to match, yet neither one makes the other one untrue. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13182 Registered: 1-2003 |
You believe the sky is orange. |
