| Author | Message | ||
     The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 1708 Registered: 3-2004  |
you are mischaracterizing my view on the color of the sky. you forgot, "it appears that you feel ..." and "it seems" and "correct me if I'm wrong." | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5424 Registered: 8-2003 |
Libertarian -- your at times substantive arguments have left you during this entire thread of which you are a sponsor. You continually refuse to display your argument(s) as to how the activities you cite are a loss of liberty or some kind of encroachment, then blast anyone who may not rise to the level of your umbrage without anything real to counter their arguments except to denigrate what they offer. I find your postings on liberties -- your bailiwick it's presumed -- totally without merit until demonstrated otherwise. Being louder or repetitive in your castigation doesn't improve your standing either. If it's just that you don't like it -- well that's wonderful. I don't like brussel sprouts, but what of it? That doesn't make brussel sprouts a loss of freedom until you can advance an argument that demonstrates otherwise. I assume you're a strict constitutionalist. So constitutionally back up what you are saying, instead of saying essentially "well, I'm amazed I have to stoop to this level." How else do you expect to have a worthwhile discussion? I might even agree with you in principle, but so far I can't with what you've offered as the reasoning behind your stance. This is why I asked you to explain yourself beyond posting two articles and an inferred thread title of umbrage. Jeezus, it's not like I'm some (insert your favorite vapid poster here). fannyfree -- can a policeman posted and taking notes or at least acting as a witness not be used in the future, or are you basing your disagreement on the thoroughness of the camera versus that of a human being on a corner? I say it's the same thing with different degrees of effectiveness. | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 1709 Registered: 3-2004 |
I find your postings on liberties -- your bailiwick it's presumed -- totally without merit until demonstrated otherwise how awfully egocentric of you to think that i post here to earn your seal of approval. as to not displaying as to how the activities i cite are a loss of liberty, again i say, they are self evident and so obvious as to make me question anyones reading comprehension who does not see it. i dont feel the need to explain them much as i dont stop strangers on the street to explain the purpose of streetlights. those who dont understand it , never will. | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 4608 Registered: 5-2001 |
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| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13185 Registered: 1-2003  |
Maybe we can close the thread with that, in that case. After all, there's nothing to discuss. Everything ought to be obvious. In fact, why discuss anything at all, ever? | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 1710 Registered: 3-2004 |
Maybe we can close the thread with that, in that case. After all, there's nothing to discuss. Everything ought to be obvious. In fact, why discuss anything at all, ever? now you are really being peurile. my perception of you is that you really arent that childish so i will pretend you didnt post that as a courtesy to you. anyhoo, i think the cited articles and their relation to a loss of liberty is obvious. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13186 Registered: 1-2003 |
I would like to hear from people other than Libertarian to know if they get the points I'm trying to make. I think cjc's point is good: that to put forth an argument takes more than assertion that the point is obvious. My absurd extrapolation of that is saying that all is obvious, therefore no discussion is necessary. There is a point to absurd extrapolation, at times. I find that conceding the other person's point, when possible, goes a long way to expressing my own, distinct point. | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 4609 Registered: 5-2001 |
I agree with Libertarian on this, but I can't quite put my finger, so to speak, on what troubles me about them. In general though I don't like the "automation" of law enforcement. A while ago a few towns tried putting in cameras at intersections to automatically send tickets to people who didn't stop at stop signs. Someone I know got a ticket because the overhead camera showed their car stopping a foot or so over the white line. I don't know what it is about that that bothers me, either, but it really does. | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 1711 Registered: 3-2004 |
I find that conceding the other person's point, when possible, goes a long way to expressing my own, distinct point. how incredibly passive-aggressive of you. | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5427 Registered: 8-2003 |
Lib -- you're empty. | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 1713 Registered: 3-2004 |
Lib -- you're empty. my apologies for not taking responsibility for your lack of reading comprehension. | ||
| gj1 Citizen Username: Gj1 Post Number: 319 Registered: 11-2003 |
Lib - there was a very long thread about the surveillance camera and crime ordinance proposals from Nov-Jan. I was surprised you weren't involved. BTW, the issue hasn't come up for a vote yet, but that doesn't mean it won't. | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 1714 Registered: 3-2004 |
i have never received a mailing regarding town meetings or agendas. the town website only lists agendas for past meetings. i have no idea when town meetings happen or their agendas. | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5428 Registered: 8-2003 |
Lib -- I've read what you written versus what you've posted. I've asked you like any teacher would to justify your contention, and your reply is that I should just read your assertion and that should suffice. What teacher or jury or judge would accept that? I can read what articles you've posted. I seriously doubt that you understand it now beyond some feeling that it's encroachment upon your liberties. Feelings are good, though. Just ask Oprah. | ||
| Elgato Citizen Username: Elgato Post Number: 38 Registered: 2-2004 |
The UK is the most carefully watched country in the world. 1725229%2C00.html,http://www.guardian.co.uk/transport/Story/0,,1725229,00.html Speed and surveillance cameras are everywhere and records (even from car parks) are being kept for several years. Soon the cameras will be in Maplewood also. Here in the USA, implanted chips are already being marketed to pet owners, parents who don't want to lose the kids and those with serious ailments. It's only a short step from there to barcoding the rest of us and then they'll just insert the 'retirement' option and that will solve the social security problem also. | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 1715 Registered: 3-2004 |
What teacher or jury or judge would accept that? i see you as none of those examples. you obviously have a very self inflated sense of importance in regards to how you expect people to relate to you on this board. I can read what articles you've posted. it isnt your ability to read that is in question. it is your need to have the article explined to you that worries me. I seriously doubt that you understand it now beyond some feeling that it's encroachment upon your liberties. i read and understood the article and how i feel they represent examples of a future encroachment of liberty. you are the one who has asked for them to be explained. save your patronizing tone for a moment that shows you in a better light and contains less irony. everyone else in this thread seems to have understood the point. maybe its just you. hmmm..... | ||
| 3ringale Citizen Username: Threeringale Post Number: 113 Registered: 1-2006 |
At least we don't have (yet) a law like the Public Order and Security Act passed in Zimbabwe where it is illegal to insult or ridicule the President. No dissing Comrade Bob Mugabe or else! Most of the people on MOL would have long since been thrown in the slammer. http://www.kubatana.net/html/archive/legisl/020122posab.asp?#16 Where are all those international human rights watchdog groups when you really need 'em? Cheers | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5229 Registered: 10-1999  |
Have you actually looked to see what "international human rights watchdog groups" such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch say about Zimbabwe? | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5430 Registered: 8-2003 |
Libertarian -- your response is so very lame and it's obvious you can't acquit yourself in a debate upon that which is supposedly in your ideological wheelhouse. You're like the guy who SAYS he can do "x", it's just that he won't do it in front of everyone. This is nice to know going forward. Last chance -- what constitutionally protected right is being encroached upon by the articles you posted? Bet you can't argue the point. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13189 Registered: 1-2003 |
Maybe he can but chooses not to. I could make the arguments, but he doesn't want me on his side. | ||
| Southerner Citizen Username: Southerner Post Number: 858 Registered: 2-2004 |
cjc, I don't understand this need by many posters of having to know why someone comes to a conclusion. Why can't a poster state an opinion without having to back it up with a dissertation? I assume that each poster, even those looney libs, who post on this board have weighed the issues and have come to a conclusion and are willing to state that opinion here. I don't need to hear why they came to that conclusion. Libertarian has an opinion and you have a differing opinion. That is fine. Why are you worrying why/how he came to that conclusion. Does it matter? And if you are really so concerned on how posters reach certain opinions you should do some research into Foj and tulip. They are far more interesting subjects. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13191 Registered: 1-2003 |
Of course he's not required to explain his position or how he reached it, but it appears to weaken because he won't explain it when asked. And again, his staunch unwillingness is odd, given that he started the thread. What was he hoping for? He doesn't seem to want agreement (at least from me) and he doesn't seem to want an argument, either. | ||
| 3ringale Citizen Username: Threeringale Post Number: 114 Registered: 1-2006 |
nohero, I just checked AI and HRW for their take on Zimbabwe. I'm happy to see that they are very critical of what goes on in Zimbabwe. I was also relieved to learn from the AI website that Zimbabwe has ratified the UN Women's Convention, whatever that is. I rather doubt, however, that Comrade Bob is losing any sleep over their criticisms. After all, what are they going to do, mail him a copy of their annual reports? I just hope that no one in Washington gets wind of this and decides that Zimbabwe is a candidate for regime-change and democracy-building, we're doing enough of that already. Ah, but I see that Zimbabwe has no oil reserves, so I guess that's one thing we don't have to worry about. Cheers | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 1716 Registered: 3-2004 |
i am not going to explain the the articles to cjc because they need no explanation. everyone else in this thread understood the point. the point is extremely obvious. read the articles, look at the title of the thread, and all should be clear. other people have posted in this thread and got the incredibly obvious point without needing me to hold their hand and walk them through it. if cjc wants to argue that because i wont crouch down and explain, using monosyllabic words, what is going on here in this widdle thwead that i have no argument, more power to him. as to tom's whining that i dont want his agreement. that wasnt what i said. i said that you made a claim in this thread that is unsupported by your stance in other threads. end of story. couldnt be any simpler to understand. instead you chose to misrepresent my views, as per usual, and then cry about it.i offer as examples: 1.He doesn't seem to want agreement (at least from me) 2. I could make the arguments, but he doesn't want me on his side. 3.Maybe we can close the thread with that, in that case. After all, there's nothing to discuss. Everything ought to be obvious. In fact, why discuss anything at all, ever? | ||
| themp Supporter Username: Themp Post Number: 2705 Registered: 12-2001  |
When libertarians realize that republicans are statist creeps, I smile. | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5431 Registered: 8-2003 |
Libertarian, YOU need explanation, not the articles, and that you can't explain yourself speaks volumes. | ||
| Duncan Supporter Username: Duncanrogers Post Number: 6075 Registered: 12-2001  |
Cjc....reasonable search and seizure re:fingerprinting vehicular offenses? | ||
| Madden 11 Citizen Username: Madden_11 Post Number: 873 Registered: 12-2003 |
I can't think of a time when I've agreed with cjc or Libertarian about anything....so I don't have a dog in this extremely entertaining fight. Having said that, however, my take on this thread is that cjc is correct: Libertarian knows he should be upset about cameras and fingerprinting, but doesn't know why. Given Libertarian's alleged intellect and passion for the issue, this assessment could have easily been refuted at any point in the thread...that he has declined to do so is telling. | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 1717 Registered: 3-2004 |
Libertarian, YOU need explanation, not the articles, and that you can't explain yourself speaks volumes that you cant grasp the concept, that everybody else here seems to have no problems with, speaks volumes. Libertarian knows he should be upset about cameras and fingerprinting, but doesn't know why i am stupified by the complete lack of comprehension by some of you. IT IS SELF EXPLANATORY!!!! ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW IS IN THE ARTICLES AND THE THREAD TITLE!!!! do i really need to dumb it down and explain every simple concept? are you all really in need of such hand holding? Amazing! i find myself in the unenviavle position of agreeing with Straw. Libs are morons. | ||
| dave23 Citizen Username: Dave23 Post Number: 1561 Registered: 5-2001 |
Sorry Lib. Everyone understands the articles and the headlines. They are just asking you to articulate why these things bother you and explain their unconstitutionality. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1427 Registered: 10-2004 |
I don't know, oddly enough I agree with >>GASP<< Southerner on this one. I hate it when I post something (usully quite long and hopefully) well-thought out and someone else gives me a one sentence reply asking me to further explain myself. I think it is their tactic to waste more of my time. I always feel like an idiot giving in to them and actually doing more research. I'd rather the opposite side did some actual work and posted their well-thought out post with their opinion and counter arguments. To me that would be appropriate and worthwhile. Honestly, Libertarian posted articles that allude to further erosion of our civil liberties. It really isn't rocket science. Sure CJC wants further clarification but it really is an admitted ploy to find out the inner workings of Libby's psyche, and has little to do with the topic at hand. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13194 Registered: 1-2003 |
How come you say your perception of me (and my views) is just as valid as anything else but you bristle when you believe me to misrepresenting your views? | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5433 Registered: 8-2003 |
Alleygater -- that can be annoying, but in this case Libertarian didn't post anything that came to a conclusion about the central point he was trying to make. He posted two articles and an inference-laden thread title. "Further clarification"?? One has to clarify initially before one can go "further," doesn't one? Alluding to lost liberties when in fact liberties might NOT be lost is where justification comes in, and it's clear he can't pull one off. It's not a ploy to ascertain his psyche at all, much less one I've admitted to. I'm interested in his argument. He doesn't have one. He's spent more time saying he won't answer the question than someone who knew what he was talking about could have dashed off in two paragraphs. | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 1718 Registered: 3-2004 |
How come you say your perception of me (and my views) is just as valid as anything else but you bristle when you believe me to misrepresenting your views? i was sarcastically using your words against you. guess you didnt recognize them. Honestly, Libertarian posted articles that allude to further erosion of our civil liberties. It really isn't rocket science. Sure CJC wants further clarification but it really is an admitted ploy to find out the inner workings of Libby's psyche, and has little to do with the topic at hand. THANK YOU! a voice of reason and intelligence. | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 1719 Registered: 3-2004 |
Alluding to lost liberties when in fact liberties might NOT be lost is where justification comes in, and it's clear he can't pull one off. It's not a ploy to ascertain his psyche at all, much less one I've admitted to. I'm interested in his argument. He doesn't have one. He's spent more time saying he won't answer the question than someone who knew what he was talking about could have dashed off in two paragraphs. i could have easily answered your question but choose not to based on the fact that i am not interested in dumbing down an already painfully obvious point. if you choose to ignore this and conclude that i wont answer your majesty because i have no argument, feel free. whatever helps you sleep at night. alleygater spoke the truth. | ||
| Madden 11 Citizen Username: Madden_11 Post Number: 874 Registered: 12-2003 |
Amazing. He just keeps digging... | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5434 Registered: 8-2003 |
Alleygater gave you cover, and bad cover at that, Libertarian. You're empty. | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 1720 Registered: 3-2004 |
fine, i will explain it for those of you who seem to be unable to grasp it. if mean mr. government is taking pictures of us all the time, and keeping track of where we are, then that is what we grownups call, "invasion of privacy". this is very very naughty and bad. its like when you crayon on the walls or make poopies in your pants. very bad. when i can be stopped for a simple traffic violation and have to submit to a fingerprinting, then this is also naughty. it presupposes, (you will have to ask mommy to help you look this word up), guilt and is also an "invasion of privacy". this is the very very simple version, i didnt want to hurt your widdle head with the big grown-up version. now go outside and play. | ||
| dave23 Citizen Username: Dave23 Post Number: 1563 Registered: 5-2001 |
I hold the Libertarian Party in nearly as much contempt as I do the Repulican and Democratic Parties for reasons illustrated here. They are nothing more than the Not Them Party. Go to their Web site and you'll see they are totally bereft of ideas and concrete positions. In its short life, the Green Party has had a much greater impact on national politics than the Libertarian Party. (Of course, that impact effectively guided Bush to the White House in 2000.) | ||
| The Libertarian Citizen Username: Local_1_crew Post Number: 1721 Registered: 3-2004 |
this is not a discussion of the libertarian party and its views. but thanks for stopping by! |
