| Author | Message | ||
     Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1547 Registered: 10-2004 |
Seriously, I can't be bothered to read all those long posts on MOL or the articles in the newspapers and to be honest this whole immigration debate in Congress looks to me as a way to divert everyone's attention away from Iraq and the imploding Republican party. So with that disclaimer said, can someone tell me what will happen to our economy if we eliminate illegal immigrants? You can outsource some things, but how do you outsource picking crops, washing dishes and cleaning hotel rooms? SERIOUSLY. I personally don't like the rampant exploitation of the immigrant work force but clearly there is a place and a need for cheap labor IN OUR COUNTRY that can be financially exploited by businesses. So can someone please educate me on how this is going to work? How will our economy function without immigrants? If businesses have to spend more money on picking crops, isn't our groceries going to go up? And if it costs more to wash dishes and clean hotel rooms won't the businesses be forced to charge us more for our dinner and our hotel stays? | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13399 Registered: 1-2003  |
My theory is that prices would go up but our economy would not collapse. I don't believe underpaid labor is essential. We're too rich to need that. Consider two farming conglomerates A and B. A is willing to raise wages to minimum wage, which would reduce illegal immigration and provide for legal citizens and immigrants. But he's only willing to do so if B does it at the same time. It's a deadlock. Neither will make the first move. But there are more than two companies facing this situation. There are probably hundreds of thousands or perhaps millions. | ||
| dougw Citizen Username: Dougw Post Number: 792 Registered: 3-2005 |
Does anyone actually think we have the political will to control our southern border? | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13400 Registered: 1-2003 |
I don't. | ||
| dougw Citizen Username: Dougw Post Number: 794 Registered: 3-2005 |
If we will not control our southern border than all these proposed laws are meaningless. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13402 Registered: 1-2003 |
Probably true, but it depends on the labor market. If we could magically raise the wages to all those jobs to minimum wage -- and that would take a LOT of magic -- then would there still be a labor shortage? I don't know. If the shortage went away, we would see less illegal immigration. | ||
| dougw Citizen Username: Dougw Post Number: 795 Registered: 3-2005 |
Are you proposing we get Harry Potter to fix our immigration problem? Or Gandalf? | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5490 Registered: 8-2003 |
We didn't enforce the immigration laws when we reformed things in 1986, so why would we now? And the labor isn't cheap when you figure the use of social services (not necessarily talking welfare or food stamps, more like emergency room medical care and education). That $2 head of lettuce is more like $10 but you only see the $2 you pay at the cash register. Then there's the subsidies.... | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1552 Registered: 10-2004 |
CJC, do have any evidence of those figures? Your theory might hold some water, but I would have no way of knowing without some research and numbers. And Tom, are you stating that paying Americans minimum wage is enough incentive to get people to work LITERALLY the worst jobs in our economy? Sure there are a lot of poor and uneducated people on welfare in our country are you suggesting that we force them to work these unwanted jobs? I am GUESSING that we don't have enough people in our country who want those jobs, EVEN AT THE HUGE AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT IS MINIMUM WAGE. There is a perception I think that illegal immigrants are lazy. In fact I think it is the opposite. Instead I think most are unbelievably strong willed and hard working. To them, the small amounts of money being offered to them is enough. I don't belive that Americans are willing to work as hard for minimum wage, I'm sorry. Now if your suggesting raising minimum wages...well... I'm assuming the consumers are going to start paying more again -- but now not only for things that have to do with illegal immigrants but for EVERYTHING. | ||
| Innisowen Citizen Username: Innisowen Post Number: 1890 Registered: 3-2004 |
Assume that the southern border is the worse of the two land frontiers. Assume also that despite Canadian efforts to keep a clean northern border, there are daily violations of that border that our ICE is probably too embarrassed to report openly. Then think of the thousands of miles of water access to Florida, the Gulf States, and California that precious few of our resources are watching (since we know that this administration has done ZIP for port security of any type). Think you can sleep at night in the certainty that this administration and the Congress are watching out for your well-being and safety? | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13405 Registered: 1-2003 |
True, minimum wage isn't worth it for many people. I think paying paying minimum for the bottom jobs might bump up many other jobs, and we can hope it bumps them up above minimum. Is the perception of illegals as lazy coming out lately? I haven't heard it, but then again, I'm not watching Fox News. I agree that it could drive all kinds of prices up. I'd be in favor of that, because I'm in favor of treating people decently. | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1557 Registered: 10-2004 |
So lay it out for me then Tom. What do you think is the solution? Do we make the illegal immigrants legal and pay miminum wage to them? What happens when the next wave of illegal immigrants enter the country? Or do you suggest we kick out the illegal immigrants, beef up the border, and deal with the cheap labor shortage by hiring American citizens to do these jobs? I suspect that ANY solution you come up with the Republicans would DESPISE. Sadly, so far I don't feel any more educated on this matter. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13409 Registered: 1-2003 |
I don't have a plan. I am merely observing the forces at play. The tide of illegal immigrants is like water. You can slow it down, but you can't stop it. Pretending you can may or may not be productive, but perhaps it's useful politically. Any solution I came up with might be something everyone would despise, because it would mean no more affordable nannies and housekeepers. And that $10 head of lettuce that has the $2 price tag might come with a $10 price tag and would have a real cost of $18. | ||
| 3ringale Citizen Username: Threeringale Post Number: 138 Registered: 1-2006 |
A technologically advanced nation with even a semblance of a welfare state/social safety net cannot afford to import poor, uneducated, unskilled workers while simultaneously outsourcing jobs and dismantling its industrial base that was once the envy of the world. Factor in the looming baby boomer retirements, rising tensions caused by ethnic/cultural/linguistic Balkanization, and the possibility of attacks on our homeland in retaliation for our self-appointed role as Globo-cop and the future of America looks less and less bright. Something needs to be done. If we really had the will to do it, I believe we could secure our borders which would be the first step in real immigration reform. Unfortunately, the Dems want cheap votes and the Repubs want cheap labor. Rep. Ron Paul is right again: We need to allocate far more resources, both in terms of money and manpower, to securing our borders and coastlines here at home. This is the most critical task before us, both in terms of immigration problems and the threat of foreign terrorists. Unless and until we secure our borders, illegal immigration and the problems associated with it will only increase. http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2006/tst040306.htm Too bad no one is listening to him. Cheers | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5493 Registered: 8-2003 |
Conservatives are listening to Ron Paul, but they haven't addressed what to do with the illegals here in this country in a substantive way. As an aside, from what I've read we still produce relatively the same percent of GDP in manufacturing as we have the last 15 years (anywhere between 13-17%). True, jobs in manufacturing have been declining, but it's not because we don't make anything here anymore. Industry has modernized and fewer workers are necessary. As I read in a Detroit News article about the decline of the automotive industry, a guy says "where else am I going to go where someone without a college degree can make $27/hour?" So, unskilled labor is hardest hit when it comes to modernization and productivity gains, and it will be ever thus. Do something else. Get a skill. The writing has been on the wall for decades. What we don't need is millions of other unskilled illegal immigrants coming into the country which will depress the wages of the declining job market that's left for those types of jobs. Build the fence/wall/border. You have to let those already in here stay as we've basically stated in an unsaid way "come here illegaly. It's quicker, no one enforces the law, we know the businesses who hire you and lobby us so we'll let you stay here even if you get caught." You can't blame them for coming. We've essentially invited them to break the law and get past the border patrol. Then, enforce the border and the laws for the first time in US history. If you catch someone, out they go. If you hire someone and get caught, you're fined. Start with some of the nannies in Maplewood! Set up some system to verify status for employers to legally employ people -- as well as a guest worker program. They overstay their welcome, out they go with penalties on re-entering. At some point you have to enforce the laws you have. Otherwise it doesn't matter what bill you write. | ||
| MichaelaM Citizen Username: Mayquene Post Number: 144 Registered: 1-2004  |
CJC, are you suggesting that automotive and other manufacturing workers are unskilled? Can you make a dye? Anyhow, the federal minimum wage is $5.15 an hour. It hasn't been raised in nearly a decade, which is a reminder that the powers that be resent its existence at all and likely seek to undermine it by making its minimum obsolete. But I'm not sure raising the minimum wage would do much to stem illegal immigration. First of all, if the government could enforce a minimum wage, then it probably would be doing a better job of holding businesses accountable that intentionally or neglectfully employ illegal workers. Perhaps if we want to reduce demand for illegal workers, it makes sense to first should up the number of legal ones. Also, I find it nonsensical that the number of low-wage workers from Mexico and elsewhere in Latin America is being associated with terrorism risk. It smacks of xenophobia. Plus, if you're reading this, chances are your ancestors came to this country poor and unskilled. In Tuesday's Washington Post, columnist Fareed Zakaria wrote one of the best analyses of U.S. immigration that I have ever read, "To Become an American." (See http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/03/AR2006040301621. html)} | ||
| Montagnard Citizen Username: Montagnard Post Number: 1928 Registered: 6-2003  |
America is now part of the global economy. If there are jobs here, people will cross borders to get them. If jobs can be outsourced to countries where people work for less, that's where the jobs will go. Merely being born here doesn't entitle you the things that others have to work for. | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5495 Registered: 8-2003 |
MichaelaM -- the workers are skilled in making a dye. Not being an aficianado on the automobile industry, maybe that's a position that can't be done mechanically or with productivity gains you still need the same number of people making dyes as you used to require. My point was that $27/hour with a high school diploma isn't something to bank on anymore, nor should it be aspired to in today's global economy. | ||
| MichaelaM Citizen Username: Mayquene Post Number: 145 Registered: 1-2004 |
Point taken. | ||
| Foj Citizen Username: Foger Post Number: 1089 Registered: 9-2004 |
I dont see Canadians coming across the Border. Upthread, CJC said something about subsidies, Alleygator. Without looking into it, CJC maybe right, AG subsidies are huge. Codify significant penalties for hiring an illegal. Then forget about a wall. | ||
| 3ringale Citizen Username: Threeringale Post Number: 139 Registered: 1-2006 |
I would not exactly say that unskilled workers from Mexico equals a threat of terrorism ,but if pregnant Mexican women can walk across the border every day, what is there to prevent an Al Quaida operative from doing the same thing? This is a real possibility and we ought to think about it: http://www.tucsonweekly.com/gbase/Currents/Content?oid=oid:60078 I still think it is incontrovertible that America's long term security and stability is threatened by our immigration and trade policies. Cheers | ||
| 3ringale Citizen Username: Threeringale Post Number: 140 Registered: 1-2006 |
cjc, I agree with you on building the wall and enforcement of laws already on the books, but amnesty will send the wrong message. On the economic issues, I don't know if the manufacturing sector is as healthy as you say, but I have no expertise to back it up. I have read about IT and engineering jobs being outsourced as well as manufacturing jobs. Sure, you can say a laid-off factory worker should retrain, but retrain to do what? Cheers | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5496 Registered: 8-2003 |
The message was already sent to them to come here and work illegaly without fear of deportation. It's just not practical to deport 12M people. If it was, I'd be for it, but it's not and the reason it's not is our own doing. Reading today about the 5 year 'roots thing' Specter is talking about. Those less than 5 years in the country have to return to 'port of entry' within 5 years and then be a temporary US worker here for 5-6 years before applying for residency/citizenship. Seems like a long way of doing the same thing on it's face. | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5497 Registered: 8-2003 |
Alleygater -- I just used the example of the lettuce to show that there are costs beyond the $2 in lettuce you actually see (and I was guessing at the price of lettuce too). There are studies that range from illegals actually adding like a .1% point of growth to the national GDP (Krugman alluded to it in a recent NY Times column), and others that I heard recently that say illegal immigration costs the US a net $10B in spite of taxes illegals pay (http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalrelease.html). | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13415 Registered: 1-2003 |
Yeah, that was a good column. Krugman conceded a lot, in order to make the debate honest. Alleygater, take a look. | ||
| 3ringale Citizen Username: Threeringale Post Number: 141 Registered: 1-2006 |
10 principles on immigration that should be guiding the debate: 10 Principles for Immigration Reform The purpose of U.S. immigration policy is to benefit the citizens of the United States. Since immigration policy can profoundly shape a country, it should be set by deliberate actions, not by accident or acquiescence, with careful consideration to ensure that it does not adversely affect the quality of life of American citizens and their communities. Immigration policy should be based on and adhere to the rule of law. Immigration laws must be enforced consistently and uniformly throughout the United States. Non-citizens enter the United States as guests and must obey the rules governing their entry. The U.S. government must track the entry, stay, and departure of all visa-holders to ensure that they comply fully with the terms of their visas, or to remove them if they fail to comply. The borders of the United States must be physically secured at the earliest possible time. An effective barrier to the illegal entry of both aliens and contraband is vital to U.S. security. Those responsible for facilitating illegal immigration shall be sought, arrested and prosecuted to the full extent of the law and shall forfeit any profits from such activity. This applies to smugglers and traffickers of people, as well as to those involved in the production, procurement, distribution, or use of fraudulent or counterfeit documents. U.S. employers shall be given a simple and streamlined process to determine whether employees are legally eligible to work. Employers who obey the law shall be protected both from liability and from unfair competition by those who violate immigration law. The violators shall be subject to fines and taxes in excess of what they would have paid to employ U.S. citizens and legal residents for the same work. Those who enter or remain in the United States in violation of the law shall be detained and removed expeditiously. Illegal aliens shall not accrue any benefit, including U.S. citizenship, as a result of their illegal entry or presence in the United States. No federal, state or local entity shall reward individuals for violating immigration laws by granting public benefits or services, or by issuing or accepting any form of identification, or by providing any other assistance that facilitates unlawful presence or employment in this country. All federal and law enforcement agencies shall cooperate fully with federal immigration authorities, and shall report to such authorities any information they receive indicating that an individual may have violated immigration laws. Illegal aliens currently in the United States may be afforded a one-time opportunity to leave the United States without penalty and seek permission to reenter legally if they qualify under existing law. Those who do not take advantage of this opportunity will be removed and permanently barred from returning. http://www.numbersusa.com/interests/principlesforimmigrationreform.html Cheers | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1571 Registered: 10-2004 |
I guess that is the part I'm having a hard part with. I'm not sure after reading the rest of your post, that if we do these things that the citizens actually benefit from it. If we eliminate all of the illegal aliens who is going to do all of the work that no one else wants to do? It seems that my theory that prices would then go up is correct (I say that only because no one here has skewered me about it yet). So if prices sky rocket for lots of things, are the citizens benefitting? Tom seems to think so because then we wouldn't be exploiting people, a noble sentiment. But I suspect 99% of all businessmen and even the status quo consumers wouldn't agree with him. | ||
| Madden 11 Citizen Username: Madden_11 Post Number: 882 Registered: 12-2003 |
I would not exactly say that unskilled workers from Mexico equals a threat of terrorism ,but if pregnant Mexican women can walk across the border every day, what is there to prevent an Al Quaida operative from doing the same thing? The same thing that prevents terrorists from flying into this country sitting in a first class seat: exactly nothing. This is why, correctly or not, there seems to be a racial element to the terrorism angle of this debate. I think the 9/11 terrorists all came here legally, though some may have stayed longer than permitted. So do we scrap immigration, or even international travel, altogether because of the terrorist boogeyman? | ||
| dougw Citizen Username: Dougw Post Number: 799 Registered: 3-2005 |
Madden 11 - boogeyman is very bad choice of words. The Boogeyman does not exist. | ||
| cjc Citizen Username: Cjc Post Number: 5498 Registered: 8-2003 |
I agree, Madden, on the racist nature that security is taking. The Dubai/Ports deal was a perfect example. Having said that, while I don't doubt that some who are anti-illegal immigration might be racist or maybe displaying a lesser xenophobia, I don't think that the anti-illegal immigration movement is racist. | ||
| Madden 11 Citizen Username: Madden_11 Post Number: 883 Registered: 12-2003 |
The Boogeyman does not exist. I disagree. The literal boogeyman does not exist, true. But the idea of the boogeyman is simply an overblown example of what will happen to "you" if you don't do as "we" say. Parents tell their children, "If you don't go to bed on time, the boogeyman will get you!" They know there's no boogeyman, but there are some (much lesser) dangers that can result from a lack of sleep. So they lie to their children, and exaggerate the potential danger and consqueneces in order to get the children to behave a certain way. So, too, does the Bush administration exaggerate the spectre of terrorism to keep Americans fearful, complacent, and obedient while they wreak havoc on our country and our Constitution. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 2786 Registered: 5-2004  |
You scare your children into going to sleep by telling them there is a boogeyman? I would think that would keep them awake all night. | ||
| dougw Citizen Username: Dougw Post Number: 801 Registered: 3-2005 |
So you are saying that these two sentences are the same? "If you don't go to bed on time, the boogeyman will get you!" "If you don't go to bed on time, the terrorists will get you just like they got the people in the World Trade Center!" | ||
| 3ringale Citizen Username: Threeringale Post Number: 143 Registered: 1-2006 |
Alleygater, I think the "benefit" in question would not be reducible to economics alone, which you seem to be implying when you say: If we eliminate all of the illegal aliens who is going to do all of the work that no one else wants to do? It seems that my theory that prices would then go up is correct (I say that only because no one here has skewered me about it yet). I'm not going to skewer you for it, but I think the burden of proof should be on those who advocate this view. I just don't believe that we need 2-3 million legal/illegal immigrants per year as far as the eye can see to keep the price of lettuce under control. Why not just enforce the laws we already have on the books (and build the fence)? Cheers | ||
| 3ringale Citizen Username: Threeringale Post Number: 144 Registered: 1-2006 |
Madden 11, You say correctly: The same thing that prevents terrorists from flying into this country sitting in a first class seat: exactly nothing. This is why, correctly or not, there seems to be a racial element to the terrorism angle of this debate. Since our terrorist problem seems to stem from Moslem/Arabs, not Swedes or Swiss, it behooves us to make use of racial/ethnic/religious profiling. This is just common sense policing, but it seems to really raise a lot of hackles for some reason. Cheers | ||
| 3ringale Citizen Username: Threeringale Post Number: 145 Registered: 1-2006 |
cjc, You are correct that the anti-immigration cause is not racist. The points I quoted above were from numbersusa.com. The guy who runs it is Roy Beck, who is a conventional eat-your-vegetables liberal. Cheers | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1576 Registered: 10-2004 |
3ring, so break on down for me (short and sweet overview style is fine for now). What are the real world benefits as you see them to doing what is proposed in that list? I will say right off the bat however that the concept of thousands upon thousands of miles of fencing seems impractical and offensive to me on many levels. I SERIOUSLY dream of a world with no borders where people can come and go as they please so I'm not sure I'm loving the idea thus far. | ||
| Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider Post Number: 13431 Registered: 1-2003 |
I tend to be universalist, too, Alleygater, but I reluctantly face the fact that you have to take care of your own primarily and worry about others secondarily. | ||
| MichaelaM Citizen Username: Mayquene Post Number: 147 Registered: 1-2004 |
http://www.visi.com/fall/news/pics/berlin-wall.jpg | ||
| Alleygater Citizen Username: Alleygater Post Number: 1579 Registered: 10-2004 |
I'm just not sure a big giant wall takes care of our own. At first glance it actually seems really short sighted to me with negative long term connotations. |
