| Author | Message | ||
     Chris Prenovost Citizen Username: Chris_prenovost Post Number: 949 Registered: 7-2003 |
The Iraqi middle class is leaving. In droves. The people upon whom any democracy is built have lost faith in their own country. Due entirely to the extraordinary ineptitude of President Bush. We have occupied that country for years. And in that time, we have sucessfully accomplished what many thought was impossible. We have made a bad situation worse. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/19/world/middleeast/19migration.html?hp&ex=114809 7600&en=27cafcfc5a99f506&ei=5094&partner=homepage Presidents can be impeached for malfeasance, does anyone know if they can be tried for gross incompetence? And does anyone wonder why this man's public opinion polls are in the basement? | ||
| Straw Kennedy Supporter Username: Strawberry Post Number: 7231 Registered: 10-2001  |
Easy to answer..Hopefully the submitted cabinet is approved by Parliament. We continue stepping back allowing the Iraqis to assume control. All we can do now. If they cannot Govern and protect their democracy our mission will not work. Really, not much more you can do. One has to hope that the terrorist activity in Iraq subsides or is defeated due in part to the Iraqi forces.. It's now in the hands of the Iraqi Government so you need to rename this thread, "Iraq/what now Iraqis?" | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4338 Registered: 12-2001  |
In other words, mission accomplished. If things fail now, its the fault of the Iraqis - a brilliant display of Bush think. | ||
| Straw Kennedy Supporter Username: Strawberry Post Number: 7232 Registered: 10-2001 |
Tjohn, For a smart guy that was one pointless post. More Llama and Tjohn. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1375 Registered: 10-2004  |
I hate to tell you this Straw but what you are calling 'terrorist activity' is civil war. These arent hidden criminals fighting each other, they are Iraqis trying to fill a power void. No puppet, America approved constitution is going to stop this. Iraq is becoming the new Lebanon. | ||
| tjohn Supporter Username: Tjohn Post Number: 4340 Registered: 12-2001 |
Bush says that we are fighting in Iraq to establish a democratic government. If that does not happen, it represents a catastrophic failure of our policy. And we cannot blame anybody but the Bush Administration for this failure. Certainly we cannot blame the Iraqis. Unfortunately, being secure in the knowledge that the Bush Administration will earn its place in history as the worst American presidency will be scant comfort as we live through the hangover of his administration. | ||
| Bob K Supporter Username: Bobk Post Number: 11570 Registered: 5-2001 |
I don't think Straw read the article. A couple of the people who are leaving specifically mentioned that the government offered no protection. Iraq is going to be in even more trouble than it already is if the educated middle class moves to Jordan and Syria. | ||
| Dr. Winston O'Boogie Citizen Username: Casey Post Number: 2105 Registered: 8-2003  |
when our plan is now "we have to hope..." we're in deep ••••. | ||
| 3ringale Citizen Username: Threeringale Post Number: 206 Registered: 1-2006 |
Hoops is exactly right. For the sake of argument you could say that the Sunni resistance was just a bunch of "dead-enders", etc. But with the emergence of Shi'ite militias since last summer, the handwriting is on the wall, and it says "Civil War". Partitioning the country into 3 parts would probably work eventually, but there would be a high cost to pay in ethnic cleansing, etc. The former Reagan NSA head William Odom said that invading Iraq was arguably "the greatest strategic disaster in U.S. history." I don't think he is far off the mark. Cheers | ||
| Straw Kennedy Supporter Username: Strawberry Post Number: 7233 Registered: 10-2001 |
hoops is exactly wrong...Terrorists are trying and so far unsuccessful in launching a civil war. | ||
| The Notorious S.L.K. Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1433 Registered: 10-2005 |
Straw- Why bother with this? The Bush Haters keeping asking all these silly questions when we all know they think we shouldn't be there in the first place. Everything else is moot. In my world, it is better to try and fail then never trying at all. -SLK | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1378 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hoops is right, Hoops is wrong. I'm neither right nor wrong. The American policy in Iraq is wrong and thats right. | ||
| The Notorious S.L.K. Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1435 Registered: 10-2005 |
Hoops- I am glad you made this post. So, what should the policy in Iraq be? -SLK | ||
| Nohero Supporter Username: Nohero Post Number: 5413 Registered: 10-1999  |
"In my world, it is better to try and fail then never trying at all." Sure, that's a good general rule. I am also partial to "Look before you leap." And its corollary, "I suppose if everyone else was going to jump off a bridge, you'd do that, too?" With respect to Iraq, the Administration decided to "jump off the bridge". | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1379 Registered: 10-2004 |
SLK- "In my world, it is better to try and fail then never trying at all. " Really? All the killing, all the destruction, all the lost money, all the lost American lives. But it was ok to try this idea? outrageous. | ||
| ae35unit Citizen Username: Ae35unit Post Number: 72 Registered: 2-2006  |
"Why bother with this? The Bush Haters keeping asking all these silly questions when we all know they think we shouldn't be there in the first place" Aren't comments like this starting to get a little delusional and shameless? The right wing shill media can pretend all they want, but that's one heck of a scary article. This piece may have it's problems, but it's a pretty nice summary of why we need to protect America, from ourselves as much as anybody else. I for one feel that the posters and their sympathizers who dismiss anyone who disagrees with the current administration as a unwashed leftist, and who think that our current policies, like building a 370 million dollar distraction on the Mexican border or "staying the course" in Iraq makes sense, are aiding and abetting in doing great harm to America. Anyway, take a look: http://www.kabc.com/mcintyre/listingsEntry.asp?ID=432586&PT=McIntyre+in+the+Morn ing | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3168 Registered: 5-2004  |
"Terrorists are trying and so far unsuccessful in launching a civil war." On what do you base this piece of information? What leads you to know that terrorists are trying to start a civil war? I don't mean your personal assessment. What facts do you have? You claim someone else is wrong. Yet you simply make statements without backing them up with anything. | ||
| Straw Kennedy Supporter Username: Strawberry Post Number: 7234 Registered: 10-2001 |
It's pretty obvious. What do you think the terrorists are doing? Trying to stablize the Government? Of course they want Civil War..Almost as badly as American radicals libs do.. This is why they target the women and children and police officers. This is why they target family members of those in power..This is why they target Mosques.. Shiite vs Sunni vs Kurd..Now that would be a terrorist dream come true.. So far, despite their best efforts it has not come to this but in time it may..We may see that nation divided into 3. For the sake of peace, let's hope that's not the case but if need be, I can live with it and so can you. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3172 Registered: 5-2004 |
Nice inflammatory claim... "Of course they want Civil War..Almost as badly as American radicals libs do.. " One more time, do you have any evidence to back up your claim that a civil war is being fomented by terrorists? But let's assume it's true. Would you say we have some responsibility to prevent that from happening? | ||
| Straw Kennedy Supporter Username: Strawberry Post Number: 7235 Registered: 10-2001 |
"One more time, do you have any evidence to back up your claim that a civil war is being fomented by terrorists?" -Yes, From Kissenger to Wesley Clarke this is clearly the primary motive of the terrorist in Iraq. "But let's assume it's true. Would you say we have some responsibility to prevent that from happening?"-No, Iraqis must work together to stop this. We are not responsible for Iraq in the long term. We removed their dangerous dictator and gave them the keys to democracy. Our work in this regard is done. Now, all we can do is support their efforts. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3174 Registered: 5-2004 |
We created the situation that they are in. Your response is child-like, and several months ago you would have called it "cut and run" had it been proposed by a Liberal. We caused the problems they are having now, and you are simply saying it is not our responsibility. | ||
| llama Citizen Username: Llama Post Number: 774 Registered: 5-2001  |
"Of course they want Civil War..Almost as badly as American radicals libs do.. " Strawbury once again proveing himself wrong, a true hypocrite because now he wants to "cut and run." Way behind in his ability to reason. I do appreciate the impact I have had on him by his mentioning me in his post, though. | ||
| Straw Kennedy Supporter Username: Strawberry Post Number: 7236 Registered: 10-2001 |
"We caused the problems they are having now, and you are simply saying it is not our responsibility." not true, actually I feel like when I need to explain things to you, I have to do so slowly... We have nothing to do with generations of hate between the three main tribes in Iraq. We had nothing to do with their dictator making billions off the UN. We declared war and we removed that dicator..Anything above and beyond is done so out of respect for the people of Iraq. If these same people cannot govern themselves there is nothing we can do. We are certainly not going to send 300,000 troops to Iraq which I suppose is going to be the new lib line.."Not less war, more war, we're libs!" Another reason why libs are morons. | ||
| ae35unit Citizen Username: Ae35unit Post Number: 73 Registered: 2-2006 |
Childlike, shameless, delusional, treasonous. Straw's been reading "A--holes for Dummies" again. | ||
| Chris Prenovost Citizen Username: Chris_prenovost Post Number: 951 Registered: 7-2003 |
Straw, rarely have you been so wrong so often in such little time and so little space. There were no 'generations of hate'. Read your history, if you can. The three ethnic groups in what is today Iraq got along fine. First under the Ottoman Turks, then under the British. Then your boy Bush came along. Saddam did not 'make billions off the UN'. He successfully defrauded the oil-for-food program. Effectively, stealing his own country's money. Please get your facts straight. And we NEVER declared was on Iraq. Unless the National Review wrote something I missed. Turn off Rush Limbaugh and all the other useful idiots and make up your own mind. | ||
| themp Supporter Username: Themp Post Number: 2921 Registered: 12-2001  |
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2006/05/18/watch-us-soldiers-lazy-_n_21272.html | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3177 Registered: 5-2004 |
First, I am not a lib. So if you want to call me a moron, you'll have to make it personal. Second, where in the long list of reasons we went into Iraq was "remove saddam?" I thought we were looking for WMDs (that, according to Rumsfled, we knew the locations of). OH wait, I thought we were beinging democracy ot the middle east. Remember, freedom is on the march. We fsck up a stable (though admittedly unjust) country, and you actually have the nerve to say
I really don't think I have heard a stupider comment here on MOL, and that says a lot. I don't even imagine BUSH could say something stupider. | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 4945 Registered: 5-2001 |
The problem is, that dictator was the one thing standing between the three tribes. Like Tito in Yugoslavia, whatever his abuses and crimes, he kept full-blown civil war from breaking out. We've removed him, but haven't put anything into place to serve that important function. "Terrorist," like "socialist," is rapidly becoming a word that obscures more than it informs. Terrorism is a tactic. The Boston Tea Party was a terrorist act. We praise it because it was staged against a repressive government by a faction which we support. John Brown's raids were terrorist, and they are still controversial to this day. To some, he's a freedom fighter of the highest order; to others a dangerous radical. But to call him a mere terrorist raises more questions than it answers. ________________________________ * as an aside, the billions from the U.N. are not relevant to this point; and we never declared war.} | ||
| Straw Kennedy Supporter Username: Strawberry Post Number: 7237 Registered: 10-2001 |
"There were no 'generations of hate'. Read your history, if you can. The three ethnic groups in what is today Iraq got along fine. First under the Ottoman Turks, then under the British. Then your boy Bush came along. "  right, I suppose you also believe in the easter bunny.. I mean do any of you libs actually know what you're talking about? | ||
| bettyd Citizen Username: Badjtdso Post Number: 255 Registered: 12-2005 |
I can't believe some people are still clinging to this dream of a free, democratic Iraq as we enter our fourth year there. But why do we expect these people to think otherwise by now? Straw, after all, has described our invasion of Iraq and our misguided attempt to set up a democracy at gunpoint amongst religious and ethnic factions that have hated each other for centuries as "pretty basic stuff." When you believe this fiasco is "pretty basic stuff" you are beyond hope. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3178 Registered: 5-2004 |
Straw, the person you are quoting is not a "lib." Chris, I wouldn't say they "got along fine" considering Saddam gassed the Kurds.
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| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 4947 Registered: 5-2001 |
A patently obvious "generations of hate" situation, and yet Bush & Co. thought the factions would strew the streets with flowers before us. No wonder conservatives are in a frenzy over the floral AK-47 on Flood's Hill -- it reminds them of what fools they were. | ||
| ae35unit Citizen Username: Ae35unit Post Number: 74 Registered: 2-2006 |
"When you believe this fiasco is "pretty basic stuff" you are beyond hope." "I really don't think I have heard a stupider comment here on MOL, and that says a lot." That does say a lot. Straw, dude, you're sounding just plain stupid today. Go back to bed or better yet, read the link I posted in the middle of the thread and atone for your dumbness. | ||
| themp Supporter Username: Themp Post Number: 2922 Registered: 12-2001 |
http://harpers.org/sb-cia-badnews-293480283.html | ||
| Lucy Smith Citizen Username: Lucy123 Post Number: 158 Registered: 6-2005 |
ae35unit-that is a great link! Thanks! | ||
| Straw Kennedy Supporter Username: Strawberry Post Number: 7238 Registered: 10-2001 |
It's pretty funny that this thread has once again turned into a lib dialogue. This is lib dialogue. say there is a problem but offer no alternatives. Offer no solutions, just take the should of, could of, would of route.. A non lib then tells you what SHOULD BE DONE. Libs, reaction of course is to attack anyone who offers a solution. Not one of you moronic libs has stated WHAT WE SHOULD DO IN IRAQ.. Do we pull out?, do we add another 200,000 troops?, do we continue supporting the Government?? I won't hold my breath waiting for an answer.. libs are morons. | ||
| bettyd Citizen Username: Badjtdso Post Number: 256 Registered: 12-2005 |
Boring. | ||
| Dr. Winston O'Boogie Citizen Username: Casey Post Number: 2108 Registered: 8-2003 |
 | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 4950 Registered: 5-2001 |
Amusing. Straw's first post on this thread reads in part, with emphasis added
Bold solutions there, Straw. Listen, we've all got better things to do than bone up on years of raw intelligence, interview personnel on the ground, build up our own intelligence networks in Iraq, monitor signal intelligence, and everything else that would go into developing a solution. We have people we pay to do this for us: the CIA, the Defense Department, and the State Department. My solution? Boot the current crop of imbeciles -- who make their decisions and then cherry-pick the facts -- out of there, and put in honest people who will look at the facts first and only then make the proper decisions. There's a reason The Emperor's New Clothes continues to be a popular story -- it's a timeless reflection of basic human nature. And this war is a classic example of how it plays out. | ||
| Chris Prenovost Citizen Username: Chris_prenovost Post Number: 952 Registered: 7-2003 |
Actually, Straw raises a good point. Now that the incompetent, lying, bufoonish draft-dodging cowards have gotten us into this quagmire, how do we get out? Forget about two years from now with a new administration. What do we do now? Get out immediately? Phased withdrawl? Stay the course, which is essentially Vietnamization redux- train the Iraqis to take over, leave and hope for the best - which did not work in Vietnam? Escalate, send in more troops, and suppress the insurgency/terrorism/incipient civil war? Or what? |
