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dawny
Citizen
Username: Day
Post Number: 60
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 7:50 pm: | 
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No thread?
Did this really happen?
Brutal |
Spinal Tap
Citizen
Username: Spinaltap11
Post Number: 1
Registered: 5-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 10:52 pm: |
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If it did those responsible should and will suffer the consequences. However, I believe the investigations are still on going. One into the event itself and another into if there was an attempted cover up. I wish the media would let the process proceed and not jump to conclusions based on partial information. I am alarmed by the number of people I’ve seen salivating at the prospect of an atrocity of this magnitude being correct. It's almost as if they are excited by it. |
Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7277
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 11:00 pm: |
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"I am alarmed by the number of people I’ve seen salivating at the prospect of an atrocity of this magnitude being correct. It's almost as if they are excited by it."
Yes, we have a word for people like this. "liberals". |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 5029
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 11:29 pm: |
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This despite the fact that none of us have ventured an opinion on it.
Meanwhile...WHO's been salivating? I instead see right here the right-wing noise machine gearing up to pre-emptively smear liberals.
Let me explain: Nothing on Salon.com except the AP story. Nothing on talkingpointsmemo. Nothing on Kos. Huffington Post leads with the AP story, which is largely about Murtha's anger at how damaging this is for efforts in Iraq, the safety of the troops and our international reputation. He's hardly salivating over it, he thinks it's a potential disaster.
Among other "usual suspects," there's a bitter remark by Alterman; Americablog blames the higher-ups for yet another coverup; Crooks & Liars has the Murtha interview, and a few just-the-facts-ma'am interview points from people involved; nothing on Atrios; nothing on talkleft; nothing on thinkprogress.
Hmm, where's the feeding frenzy?
Once again, conservatives are wrong on the facts, so they just make s**t up.
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Spinal Tap
Citizen
Username: Spinaltap11
Post Number: 2
Registered: 5-2006
| | Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 9:04 am: |
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Who said feeding frenzy? I said there were people who were jumping to conclusions and yes – some appear excited by the prospect. For example, check out the Boston Globe, the Los Angeles Times, and ABC News. Time Magazine just had another story titled “The Shame of Kilo Company”. I saw Stephanopoulos interview Rep Murtha yesterday and I think if I had HDTV I would have been able to see the sweat on his forehead in anticipation of Rep Murtha dropping a bombshell.
My problem is not necessarily with liberals but with the media that in spite of so many recent screw-ups continue to run their mouths first and confirm the facts later. Maybe the sites you cite have no need to beat their competitors to the punch and sell more papers. Maybe they learned their lesson from incidents like Jessie MacBeth. In case you don’t know, this person fabricated fantastic tales of atrocities he committed in Iraq, pursuant to orders, with the full knowledge of his chain of command. He made a video that appeared on peacefilms.org which I suspect was widely circulated in the Middle East. Turned out to be a total hoax. MacBeth was never in the military let alone Iraq. What’s really unfortunate though is the fact that just a cursory investigation would have revealed this. For example, anyone who served in the army who saw the picture of MacBeth in uniform would have immediately noted that there were missing or incorrectly placed insignia and decorations. A red flag that the person in question is not legit. The people at peacefilms.org didn’t care. They wanted the story to be true so they ran with it.
At any rate I really hope there is an explanation for whatever happened at Haditha.
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Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7278
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 9:18 am: |
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Whatever the reason, liberals will be happy just as long as it makes America look bad. If it somehow leads to failed democracy in Iraq, even better for the Anti-American radical left. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 5030
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 10:05 am: |
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I would love it if America could look good. Unfortunately, conservatives keep putting us into situations where we look bad. It wasn't liberals who approved torture at Abu Ghraib, now was it? How many of the recent disgraced capitalists (Lay, Skilling, etc.) were liberals?
Spinal, I see where you're coming from, but I've never heard of Jessie McBeth, and I imagine there are very few who have. While it's easy to fool one person (whoever the editor at peacefilms was, in this case), this story apparantly never got any traction. The fact that one outlet was gullible enough to buy it shouldn't reflect on the others that didn't. Otherwise, you and I need to have a serious conversation about Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh.
Time is walking a line between journalism and meta-journalism. Apparently they broke this story, and now that the military is investigating there appears that there is really something to it. Media outlets constantly have to report on bad news. War, revolution, assasination, crime, poverty, corruption, natural disaster. If Time were to break a story on a devastating earthquake somewhere, they would not want to find out after going to press that it had never happened. Likewise, while they are not going to be happy with the underlying fact that there was a massacre, for their reputation's sake they obviously would rather their story turned out to be true than false. |
GOP Man
Citizen
Username: Headsup
Post Number: 391
Registered: 5-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 1:32 pm: |
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Tap is right about this breathless rush to judgment. Only 4 brief months after the incident in Haditha, Time rushed this story to press. And now only 2 months after the Time article, the rest of the liberal media is jumping all over this story. You can't turn on a TV or open a paper without reading about it. Clearly, the libs are trying to use it to destroy the president. There are stories that the NCIS has concluded the incident happened, but until we have guilty pleas in courts martial, I don't believe this story should be reported on at all. |
bottomline
Citizen
Username: Bottomline
Post Number: 435
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 1:39 pm: |
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Straw, America already looks bad. It has ever since President Bush landed on that aircraft carrier and stood there in his flight jacket and declared victory. Were liberals responsible for that stupid strategy? Did James Carville cook it up? Hell no, it was Karl Rove and company.
The Bush administration devised this war, sold it to the American people with a pack of lies, and then didn’t devote adequate resources to it anyway. In short, they sh*t in their own nest, but now they’ve still got to sleep in it.
I know you desperately want somebody to blame, but it ain’t the liberals this time. It’s the Bush-Cheney-Rumsfield axis. I really don’t understand why you cons still make excuses for those guys.
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Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7279
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 2:53 pm: |
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The above post brought to you by a lib..Pointless and out of touch with reality. |
tom
Citizen
Username: Tom
Post Number: 5031
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 3:23 pm: |
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And what would that reality be, pray tell? The Bush administration didn't devise the war? What they told us about WMD was true? That they really did devote adequate resources? It was Carville's idea all along?
Pointless? No. The point is that the administration is incompetent and dishonest.
Not sure what else you're getting at, but please follow up 'cause I could use a laugh. |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 11650
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 3:59 pm: |
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Straw:
Many Marine units are already on their third tour. They are, as Murtha pointed out, worn out and suffering from battle fatigue. It can't be fun to be sent out day after day in inadequately armored vehicles, using tactics that haven't changed since the beginning of the war.
There was a documentary on TV last week about a Marine company's seven month tour. During that period they had 23 men killed out of 184. 52 members of the company received Purple Hearts. I don't claim their experience was typical, but it is easy to understand why a similar unit overreacted. I Vietnam if you survived your 12 month tour you didn't have to go back. Nowadays survival means that you go back next year.
We went to war with unrealistic expectations. Now we are in a long term war of attrition and the Administration is sticking to their plan of using too few troops, to poorly equipted.
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Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7280
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 4:23 pm: |
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The above post brought to you by a moderate..Strays off topic from time to time. |
llama
Citizen
Username: Llama
Post Number: 788
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 6:26 pm: |
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The above post brought to you by a nobody who hates America. |
anon
Supporter
Username: Anon
Post Number: 2729
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 8:25 pm: |
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Even a thread about such a serious and tragic matter deteriorates into the usual name-calling and sniping. |
Spinal Tap
Citizen
Username: Spinaltap11
Post Number: 3
Registered: 5-2006
| | Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 8:28 pm: |
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(I obviously have a lot of time on my hands this evening)
It’s not possible for me to understand why a unit “overreacted”. What is being alleged by some is the deliberate murder of defenseless civilians including children. If it happened, there is nothing that would make it understandable and to say there is, is an insult to the thousands of soldiers, Marines, and their officers who have been in similar circumstances and performed honorably. In reality, there have been many instances of units in combat either holding back or closing with the enemy more than tactically necessary, thereby exposing themselves to added danger and in some cases taking causalities because of the possibility of harming civilians. Remember that this is an enemy that regularly uses civilians and civilian infrastructure such as schools, mosques, and hospitals, as cover, because they know that U.S. Forces will usually restrain themselves. In Mogadishu, there were instances of gunmen firing on U.S. troops from behind women holding children. According to the Laws of Land Warfare, a soldier would be fully justified in targeting the person using such treacherous tactics and the responsibility for any harm to non-combatants or damage to infrastructure would be with the terrorist, however, our personnel still go to great extremes to protect civilians.
Again, I can’t help but wonder if what’s at play here is yet another example of some people always wanting to believe the worst about our armed forces, especially if they can score political points. Why is it that almost everyone in America knows who Charles Graner is but not Paul Smith? Why does everyone know Lynndie England but not Leigh Ann Hester? How about James Coffman, Mark Mitchell, or Donald Hollenbaugh? Previous generations would have made movies about these people. Today they barely warrant a mention in a local paper.
I gave the one isolated example in an earlier post but this is an ongoing and widespread phenomenon. It started during Vietnam with the Winter Soldier Investigation which has been exposed as utter nonsense. For example, one of the star “witnesses” was a clown by the name of Chuck Onan. He told the most grisly stories imaginable about things he did in Vietnam while a member of various elite units. He was later exposed as a total phony who worked as a stock room clerk at a Marine base. (These fools always claim to have been in elite units which is ironic considering that elite units are the most highly trained, disciplined, and professional units in the military. On the rare occasions when atrocities do occur, they are usually perpetuated by crappy units with poorly trained soldiers and lousy leaders). Another “witness” was Michael Schneider who also told horrible stories of atrocities he committed in Vietnam. Again, he never set foot in Vietnam and is currently in a mental institution. However, these guys and many others stated this garbage in front of Congress and the press just lapped it up.
This gave rise to the stereotype of the whacked out Vietnam vet which was fueled by Hollywood drivel like The Deer Hunter, Platoon, and Rambo. But the press didn’t care – they just kept going. They followed up with Dan Rather’s “The Wall Within” on CBS in the 1980’s and Peter Arnett’s “Tailwind” report on CNN in the 90’s. Both depicted American soldiers as murders, drug addicts, rapists, sadists, and psychopaths. Both “documentaries” were shown to be demonstrably false and the stories were easily checkable. One “vet” in “The Wall Within”, Terry Bradley, claimed that he had actually skinned 50 Vietnamese men, woman, and children alive. Dan Rather just sat there, stone faced, and actually believed this idiocy. Bradley turned out to be an ammo handler and spent a year in the stockade for being AWOL. No one was ever able to verify any of his crazy stories. (The number of people running around pretending to be vets or war heroes for various reasons is amazing. There are several organizations dedicated to exposing these frauds.) Fast forward to today and we seem to be going down the same path. I can’t count how many stories I have read or heard about soldiers who are having all sorts of problems. Every time there is a crime committed by a vet, it’s on the news and the war is the reason.
Remember Ilario Pantano? He was the Marine officer charged with the murder of two Iraqi men. Acquitted. Autopsy backed his story up. Remember the Marine who shot the “dead” terrorist in the Mosque? He was never charged. Turns out his unit had been attacked several times by terrorists pretending to be wounded or dead (violation of the Laws of Land Warfare) and the reporter who took the video later admitted that the Corporal’s action, in light of the circumstances, was justified. However, how many stories were produced about those incidents?
I guess I’ve gone way off topic but the point I’m trying to make is that when stories like Haditha come out, people should just stand back, let the investigation proceed and facts come out, and not try to win Pulitzers or score political points. I’m not saying atrocities have never happened or can’t happen, or that there are not veterans with war related problems, but they are the exception, not the rule, and they have been present in all wars throughout history.
As far as the other remarks go - yes the president and his administration did devise the war. He is the president - who else would have devised it? The aircraft carrier landing was not a good idea. What lies are you referring to? Define torture. How is the military under-equipped? Our tactics are continually evolving. Just check any military web-site dealing with the fighting. The proper number of troops is debatable. More would have alleviated some problems but would probably have created others. However, the people I have spoken to who were in Iraq (at the tactical or operational, not strategic level) all said that they did need more personnel – they were getting the job done but the operational tempo was too high. And if the media would prefer that an alleged atrocity like this was true for the sake of preserving what’s left of their reputations, they are sorrier then I thought.
I contend that the jury is still out on WMD and evidence is continuing to mount that they were moved out of the country. What do you think is more reasonable? In the months leading up to the invasion, while we were playing games with the United Nations, that Iraqi personnel with the assistance of Russian special operations forces, according to a predetermined and rehearsed plan, moved the weapons and evidence of them to their Baathist allies in Syria. Especially considering that we know Russia was a) making a killing in oil for food, b) selling weapons to Iraq right to the end, c) had advisors in Iraq right to the end, and d) Senator Rockefeller told Assad that regardless of what the U.N. did, the U.S. was going to invade, at which point I’m sure Assad picked up the Bat Phone to Saddam.
OR - do you think it’s more reasonable that the entire world’s intelligence estimate for Iraq for the past ten years (including the Clinton Administration’s) has been 100 percent wrong and Saddam knowing that all he had to do was allow unfettered access to various facilities that would turn up nothing instead decided to fight the U.S. Also, let’s not forget the 500 tons of yellowcake uranium discovered at Saddam’s Tuwaitha nuclear weapons development plant South of Baghdad, about 2 tons of which was partially enriched or the physicist who ran Saddam’s centrifuge program, Dr. Mahdi Obeidi.
Obeidi said that after the first Gulf War, the program was largely dismantled. But it wasn't destroyed. He said that Saddam kept funding the Iraq Atomic Energy Commission until the war in 2003. He also said that Saddam ordered him to keep the technology available to resume Iraq's nuke program at a moment's notice. He said that he buried the blueprints and designs to restart the centrifuge program and some critical components under the garden of his Baghdad home and claimed that it would not have been difficult to restart the program. At any rate, I think only 2 of the 12 or 13 reasons for war in the last, last, last, really, in all seriousness, last, U.N. serious consequences resolution dealt with WMD.
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Andy
Citizen
Username: Mapleman
Post Number: 651
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 9:54 pm: |
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I believe it's more reasonable that massive quantitites of WMD were moved by the Iraqis to the planet Qo'noS with the assistance of Klingon special operations forces. |
ina
Citizen
Username: Ina
Post Number: 366
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 5:49 am: |
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Marines' Families Discuss Haditha Deaths
- - - - - - - - - - - -
By JUSTIN M. NORTON Associated Press Writer
May 29,2006 | HANFORD, Calif. -- Two Marines were severely traumatized after following orders to photograph corpses of unarmed Iraqi civilians that members of their unit are suspected of killing, their families said Monday.
The parents of Lance Cpl. Andrew Wright, 20, and Lance Cpl. Roel Ryan Briones, 21, both members of a Marine unit based at Camp Pendleton, said their sons were sent into the western Iraqi city of Haditha to help remove the bodies of as many as two dozen men, women and children who were shot.
While there, the two were ordered to photograph the scene with personal cameras they happened to be carrying the day of the attack, the families told The Associated Press in separate interviews. Briones' mother, Susie, said her son told her mother he saw the bodies of 23 dead Iraqis that day.
"It was horrific. It was a terrible scene," Susie Briones said in a tearful interview Monday at her home in California's San Joaquin Valley.
Navy investigators confiscated Briones' camera, his mother said. Wright's parents, Patty and Frederick Wright of Novato, declined to comment on what might have happened to the photos their son took, but they said he had turned over all of his information to the Navy.
"He is the Forrest Gump of the military," Frederick Wright said. "He ended up in the spotlight through no fault of his own."
Ryan Briones told the Los Angeles Times that Navy investigators had interrogated him twice in Iraq and that they wanted to know whether bodies had been tampered with. He turned over his digital camera but did not know what happened to it after that.
Susie Briones called the Nov. 19 incident a "massacre" and said the military had done little to help her son, who goes by his middle name, deal with his post-traumatic stress disorder.
"I know Ryan is going through some major trauma right now," said Susie Briones, 40, an academic adviser at a community college. "It was very traumatic for all of the soldiers involved with this thing."
The details of what happened in Haditha are still murky. What is known is that a bomb rocked a military convoy and left one Marine dead. Marines then shot and killed unarmed civilians in a taxi at the scene and went into two homes and shot other people, according to Rep. John Murtha, a Pennsylvania Democrat and decorated war veteran who has been briefed by military officials.
The incident has sparked two investigations -- one into the deadly encounter itself and another into whether it was the subject of a cover-up. The Marine Corps had initially attributed 15 civilian deaths to the car bombing and a firefight with insurgents, eight of whom the Marines reported had been killed.
Marine Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the military's Joint Chiefs of Staff, said Monday on CBS's "The Early Show" that "it would be premature for me to judge" the situation.
But he added that it is critically important to make the point that if certain service members are responsible for an atrocity, they "have not performed their duty the way that 99.9 percent of their fellow Marines have."
Asked how such a thing could have happened, Pace replied, "Fortunately, it does not happen very frequently, so there's no way to say historically why something like this might have happened. We'll find out."
Briones' best friend, Lance Cpl. Miguel "T.J." Terrazas, had been killed the day of the attack by the roadside bomb, his mother said. He was still grieving when he was sent in to clean up the bodies of the Iraqi civilians.
One was a little girl who had been shot in the head, Susie Briones said.
"He had to carry that little girl's body," she said, "and her head was blown off and her brain splattered on his boots."
The Wrights declined to say whether their son witnessed the killings or what he thought of the allegations against other members of his unit.
He was under so much pressure because of the investigation that he had consulted with an attorney, they said. He has also experienced psychological trauma.
Wright and Briones are both recipients of the Purple Heart, given to soldiers wounded in battle.
Wright was injured during an assault on Fallujah in January 2005. He voluntarily rejoined his unit at Camp Pendleton the next month.
Briones was on his second tour of duty in Iraq. He received a Purple Heart during his first tour.
On Monday, both Marines were back at Camp Pendleton, near Oceanside, where base officials said several members of Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division were being confined during the investigations.
Lt. Lawton King, a Camp Pendleton spokesman, declined to comment Monday, but another Marine there reflected on the damage the reports have done.
Nicholas Grey, a second lieutenant in the Marine Reserves based at Camp Pendleton, said the case will result in a loss of credibility for the Marines and increase Iraqi anger.
"It will make it a lot harder for the Marines who want to go through the streets," he said.
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Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 11657
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 10:03 am: |
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Mr. Tap, if tactics have been improved, how come IEDs are still the leading cause of casualties to US forces in Iraq?
Straw, like it or not the troops are under a lot of stress. This doesn't excuse the alleged actions, but it does help to explain them. A unit such as the one I mentioned which takes over 12% dead and 25% wounded is going to shoot first and ask questions later. The kids (and most of them are under 25) do a great job, but they are human, just like the rest of us. |
notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 3335
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 10:08 am: |
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This is the kind of thing that can happen when human beings are put into such extreme situations for extended periods of time. Let's not rush to judgement of those involved. I suspect that the Haditha situation was literally beyond imagining, unless you have personally served as a soldier in a battle zone, but I think it is important to determine what happened. Unfortunately, the cover-ups and fabrications concerning many other events have all but destroyed the credibility of "official" descriptions from our armed forces. Meanwhile, certain wingnuts would have us believe that Time is actually the "bad guy" in this situation for trying to reveal the truth. |
themp
Supporter
Username: Themp
Post Number: 2962
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 12:50 pm: |
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"I guess I’ve gone way off topic but the point I’m trying to make is that when stories like Haditha come out, people should just stand back, let the investigation proceed and facts come out, and not try to win Pulitzers or score political points."
So then shut up already. |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1385
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 1:13 pm: |
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Tap - "I’m not saying atrocities have never happened or can’t happen, or that there are not veterans with war related problems, but they are the exception, not the rule, and they have been present in all wars throughout history."
I think we can all agree with your statement above. There is no giving back the lives of the Iraqi civilians, no relief from the anguish suffered by their families. This has never been a war about WMD. It is a war about empire and imperialism and money.
It is a tragedy, but this is to be expected since there are tragedies like this in every war. The only thing the US can do in this situation is the right thing. Bring it out in the open. Apologize officially from the President to the Iraqi people and bring in enough troops to either enforce peace or remove the troops from harms way and allow the Iraqis to run their own damn country.
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The Notorious S.L.K.
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 1524
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 1:49 pm: |
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This has never been a war about WMD. It is a war about empire and imperialism and money.
Do mind providing proof for such claims, Hoopster?
-SLK |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1386
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 2:10 pm: |
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Its an opinion SLKster. Everybody has one.
Now there is plenty of literature all over the net, TV, even MOL that points to reasoning behind that opinion. However I dont think I need to post those links every time I state my opinion. I am sure I posted many links to articles and artifacts that show there were no WMD, that show the whole Iraq war was a neo con plan long before Bush even was elected and within the project for a new american century there are plenty of ammunition providing 'proof'.
Again do your own research or better yet show me how my opinion is incorrect. |
Montagnard
Citizen
Username: Montagnard
Post Number: 1952
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 9:27 pm: |
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It's an imperial adventure gone wrong, something obvious to anyone who has read some history.
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cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 5660
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 10:13 pm: |
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Curious, Monty. How many imperialist adventures allow for the direct election of people hostile to the so-called imperial effort? And why not completely take over the oil industry and with that not allow any monies derived from same to be spent entirely for the well-being of the populace as we all know Chavez is doing for his people? |
Mustt_mustt
Citizen
Username: Mustt_mustt
Post Number: 574
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 10:57 pm: |
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FYI- cjc
Oil for Occupation, But None for Iraqis
Iraq's Ongoing Fuel Crisis
By ROBERT BRYCE
The ongoing war in Iraq will likely be won or lost based on the availability of one commodity: motor fuel.
For the moment, the U.S. military has all the fuel it needs--about three million gallons per day -- to continue prosecuting the war in Iraq. The same cannot be said for Iraqi civilians. Indeed, the supply of motor fuel in Iraq remains highly precarious.
Evidence of that can be found by looking at the case of Lloyd-Owen International, a small American company which provides security for hundreds of gasoline tanker trucks hauling fuel from Kuwait into Iraq. For the past month, Lloyd-Owen has been facing a May 25 deadline. Effective today, according to the U.S. military, Lloyd-Owen was to be prevented from moving its fleet of tankers through a military checkpoint near Safwan on the Iraq-Kuwait border. Lloyd-Owen provides security for transporters who haul about 6 million liters of fuel per day to various locations in southern Iraq. That fuel is then distributed to service stations in the region for use by civilians.
Lloyd-Owen's trucks were to be barred from using the checkpoint under a new policy which said that only trucks working under contracts with the U.S. military will be allowed to use the military checkpoint. Lloyd-Owen's contract is with Iraq's Oil Marketing Company, known as SOMO, which has been buying fuel from the Kuwait Petroleum Company in order to meet domestic demand. Thus, even though Lloyd-Owen's work is directly related to the rebuilding and stabilization efforts in Iraq, its trucks would not be issued special badges by the U.S. military. And without those badges, their trucks would not be allowed to use the checkpoint.
On May 11, U.S. Rep. Henry Waxman (D-California) intervened on behalf of Lloyd-Owen and sent a letter to Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld asking him to look into the matter. Waxman wrote that "in light of the potential consequences of a fuel shortage in Iraq, I would like an explanation for the new policy of the Defense Department." Waxman's office said they got a response from Rumsfeld's office but that it was "non-substantive." Then, about mid-day yesterday, May 24, just a few hours before the deadline, the Army suddenly rescinded its policy, and determined that Lloyd-Owen's trucks could use the military checkpoint until a "to be determined date."
Now, all of this could be excused as part of the bureaucratic mess that always accompanies military operations. But motor fuel is a critical commodity in Iraq. Without fuel, there is absolutely no chance that Iraq's economy can sustain itself. The Kuwaiti fuel is essential because output from Iraq's own refineries has been dramatically reduced or stopped altogether due to insurgent activity. Corruption within the Iraqi oil ministry is also causing a myriad of problems. That means that getting Kuwaiti fuel across the border must happen quickly in order to assure adequate supplies of fuel to Iraqi citizens. The CEO of Lloyd-Owen, Alan Waller, insists that his trucks must be allowed to use the military border crossing. The civilian checkpoint is not an option. "We tried sending four tankers," through the civilian crossing, Waller told me. "It took four days to get those tankers through." By comparison, according to Waller, the trucks going through the military checkpoint can get through in 16 minutes.
Waller's trucks are only meeting a fraction of the demand for motor fuel in Iraq. Normal gasoline demand is probably about 20 million liters per day. But consumption is constrained by instability and endemic corruption.
Fuel availability and logistics problems are an ongoing theme of the Second Iraq War. In northern Iraq, trucks carrying fuel and other supplies into the country from Turkey must cope with monstrous traffic jams at the border. Queues of trucks waiting to enter Iraq at the Habur Gate crossing are--this is not a typo--up to 20 miles long. U.S. Army logisticians are reporting that for one tanker truck (carrying military fuel) to make a complete round trip from Turkey to Iraq and back to Turkey takes up to 24 days.
In the first few months of the war, KBR, a division of Halliburton, was given the task of importing fuel from Kuwait into Iraq. Pentagon auditors later found that KBR was using huge markups on the fuel. In one case, KBR apparently charged the DOD $27.5 million to transport liquefied petroleum gas worth $82,100. From May 2003 through March 2004, KBR billed the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers $875 million for supplying fuel into Iraq; Pentagon auditors later questioned $108 million of that amount. The Defense Department has since decided to pay Halliburton nearly all of the disputed amount.
LOI got the fuel delivery security contract (formerly held by KBR) in 2004. There have been no reported problems with LOI's management of the contract. Waller, who is a former member of the British army, says his company has accompanied some 46,000 truckloads into Iraq without the loss of a single truck. That's about 1.6 billion liters of fuel.
The problems in Iraq are not confined to refined products. Earlier this month, Platts Commodity News reported that some 60 million barrels of crude oil production in Iraq had gone missing. Platts estimated the value of the missing crude at $3 billion, and said that Iraq's oil production and export figures "consistently do not balance out when supply to refineries is deducted from the total."
The many opportunities for corruption have left ordinary Iraqis struggling to get the fuel they need. Earlier this week, I corresponded with an Iraqi who left Baghdad about three weeks ago and moved to Dubai. Ahmed Karrufa, who published a blog called Life in Baghdad, said fuel shortages have been constant since the U.S. invaded the country in 2003. In an e-mail, Karrufa wrote that last year,
"the government increased the prices of fuel dramatically, hoping that this will help, but instead, fuel lines remained hours long, and fuel prices in the black market jumped even higher. I don't know if you know this or not, but in Baghdad, there is what is called [the] odd/even traffic rule. That is, one day only cars with odd numbered registration plates are allowed, the other day, only cars with even numbered registration plates are allowed. This is also an attempt to reduce fuel shortage and the traffic jammed due to blocked roads.Each day in Iraq and specifically in Baghdad, is worse than the day before. This rule has been working for the past three years and there is nothing that hints that it is going to change soon."
It's not clear yet what will happen to Lloyd-Owen. If the U.S. military prevents its gasoline trucks from going through the military checkpoint, then Baghdad could be left with little or no motor fuel at all. And that will only help feed the ongoing unrest in the region. Furthermore, according to Waller, "There's more money in the black market now than ever before."
Many news reports from Iraq are saying that ordinary Iraqis must purchase fuel on the black market at prices that are several times that of the official government price. Of course, there are shortages of other energy as well. Electricity in Baghdad only functions for four hours per day.
Even though Lloyd-Owen got a reprieve, and its trucks can continue using the military checkpoint, there could still be a meltdown in Iraq's domestic fuel market. During a conference last month in Washington, D.C., U.S. Army officials working for the Defense Energy Support Center (the Pentagon agency that buys fuel for the military) said that SOMO "isn't paying their bills very well." That was confirmed by Waller, who said SOMO owes the trucking companies who transport the fuel $60 million; his own firm is owed some $2.7 million from the Iraqis.
Iraq recently installed a new government. And the Bush Administration continues to put a smiley face on the U.S. military's efforts in Iraq. But unless or until the U.S. can resolve the ongoing fuel supply issues in Iraq, don't expect much good news.
Robert Bryce lives in Austin, Texas. He is the author of Cronies: Oil, the Bushes, and the Rise of Texas, America's Superstate. He can be reached at: robert@robertbryce.com
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cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 5662
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 11:10 pm: |
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Must....I read the article and aside from well-known problems in the distribution system that have a variety of causes that I imagine are related to hostilities, I didn't see where the US was just taking it entirely for US consumption. Do you assume that when Iraq stands mostly on it's own that the US will abscond imperialistically with this fuel and leave Iraqis with the same problems they face now?
Also, Baghdad and Sunni areas, which used to get inordinate electrical supply compared with Shia areas, is indeed seeing less power than during the days of Hussein which is as he planned it. In the areas of the country feeling the brunt of Hussein's oppression, their power levels are higher than they were before the war. |
Mustt_mustt
Citizen
Username: Mustt_mustt
Post Number: 575
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 8:00 am: |
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cjc-
The main reason for invading was to take over and privatize the Iraqi oil industry and that the US has achieved successfully although 99% of the Iraqis who were recently polled wanted Iraqi control of Iraqi oil. The US has acted in its national interests to secure oil resources over a longer term and Iraq has afforded that guarantee. No one knows how much oil is being tapped in Iraq except the oil companies. Now we read that insurgent activities have slowed down oil production according to "official" reports.
I don't see at this point in time how the US will leave Iraq just like that, like a benevolent power that did its job purely for altrusitic reasons - "to spread democracy and freedom." We would be politically naive to believe that. |
Duncan
Supporter
Username: Duncanrogers
Post Number: 6398
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 8:31 am: |
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And this morning there are reports that the investigation is focusing on misinfomation (read lies) that were given to superior officers regarding the deaths of Iraqis.
To preempt Straw. This does not make me happy. What would make me happy would be to stop hearing about how well things are going and start seeing actual signs of it. But I guess with a liberal bias media, that is too much to expect since they all want America to look foolish and idiotic.
And mean while we twiddle our thumbs as Darfur turns into one big mass grave. But don't worry..
Quote:"We will honor our commitments," said Bush. "But the United States Congress must pass the supplemental with the money in there for the Sudan."
He said he told Kagame he was confident that the Congress will pass the legislation "and that his troops will get reimbursed."
The check is in the mail, unless of course
Quote:However, he warned U.S. legislators that the bill, which authorizes funds for all U.S. government activities, must meet certain financial conditions. “I'm going to veto the bill if they spend more money than I requested,” he said.
sorry for the drift. People are dying all over the planet under regimes that are more villanous than Saddam's was and yet, despite the AU's hard work no one is doing much of anything. It reminds me of that ridiculous post from someone in another thread that basically said "lets put em all in a box and let em kill each other".
Heres a match...flame on |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 11685
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 8:43 am: |
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The interesting part about the oil story is that it talks about imported oil, not Iraqi oil. Prior to the war Iraq was able to supply their own needs and still have plenty for export. |
cjc
Citizen
Username: Cjc
Post Number: 5667
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 1, 2006 - 10:06 pm: |
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Right....so we're stealing Iraq's imported oil too, and all this talk of Sunnis being aced out of the oil revenues is bogus and the Shia and Kurds are in on the joke. They're allowing us to take all the oil ya see. Wait until the Sunnis read MOL and then they'll really be mad. |
Duncan
Supporter
Username: Duncanrogers
Post Number: 6416
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, June 2, 2006 - 9:38 am: |
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With the news today of 7 soldiers and a Navy man being charged in the death of an Iraqi and alledgedly planting evidence to make it look as though he were digging a hole to plant an IED, and Haditha it becomes clear that the frustration among a segment of the troops in Iraq is growing. I know Straw/cjc et al will jump all over me for being glad about this but I am not. I am scared for those guys that things are so messed up there that they are ALLEDGEDLY doing these things. |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1394
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 2, 2006 - 10:18 am: |
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War exposes humans to things that we should never be exposed to. The fact that our troops:
- have not been trained for an occupation
- are serving forced second, third, forth, etc tours in Iraq because there are not enough manpower
- are being lead by at best an incompetant Sec def whose tactics are suspect and proven tragic for Americans
- have no clear exit strategy
- have a daily existence that includes the pressure of knowing you can be attacked suddenly, violently and never see the enemy that is attacking you
and a dozen other reasons. The leadership is really screwing our troops over. Again.
War always has heart breaking stories like this. |
joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 549
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 2, 2006 - 11:14 am: |
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Glad about what?
jd |
Duncan
Supporter
Username: Duncanrogers
Post Number: 6430
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, June 2, 2006 - 11:22 am: |
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Joel, it is customary for Straw(mostly) and cjc(sometimes) to suggest that if an admitted liberal posts anything negative about what is happening in Iraq that he/she is somehow glad or happy that it happened. After a few more months on MOL and in the soapbox you will see this occur over and over again. |
joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 550
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 2, 2006 - 11:59 am: |
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Don't lose sight of what is happening, again.
jd
June 01, 2006
The Haditha Story
By Jed Babbin
The accelerating media feeding frenzy over the alleged killings of twenty-four Iraqi civilians in Haditha by US Marines last November is about to overwhelm American politics. Propelled by their most irresponsible war critics, the left will try use Haditha as it used My Lai thirty years ago: as a political tool to take apart America's support for the war and to shatter the legitimacy of our cause and the morale of our troops.
We don't know what happened in Haditha, an insurgent stronghold in Anbar Province. Unverified press accounts allege that members of Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, First Marines, were hit by an improvised explosive device and one of them was killed. Others, according to these reports, went on an hours-long killing spree to revenge their comrade's death, leaving about twenty-four men, women and children dead. Navy and Marine Corps investigators are at work, and other reports indicate that at least three Marine officers, including the battalion and company commanders, have been relieved of duty. It's also reported that more than one enlisted man has been detained pending charges about to be brought.
No matter how quickly military investigators work, and no matter how firmly any crimes are punished, the anti-war left won't be satisfied unless Haditha becomes the lever that pushes President Bush to admit the war was wrong and set a time to withdraw from Iraq. My Lai - the March 16, 1968 massacre of about 500 Vietnamese by US soldiers - was first covered up and then exploded in headlines, courts-martial and congressional hearings. (Maureen Dowd, one of the New York Times's hyperliberal columnists, has already labeled Haditha a "My Lai acid flashback.") Screamed about by protesters, shown endlessly on television news, My Lai and the court-martial of one of the perpetrators, Lt. William Calley, provided the final political nail in the coffin of American involvement in Vietnam. We withdrew from Vietnam in 1975, abandoning our allies and hanging our heads in shame. This is the political result the left wants from Haditha, and we cannot allow it to happen for one very big reason. The Vietnam War ended in Vietnam, leaving America incapable of taking action in defense of itself or its allies for decades. The end of the war against the terrorist nations won't occur in Iraq, and we must be prepared - psychologically and politically - to continue the fight. When we lost Vietnam the enemy didn't follow us home. Radical Islamists will. If they win, we will literally lose America.
If it were up to Cong. John Murtha, Duke University rape case prosecutor Mike Nifong would be transferred to the Haditha case. Fortunately for both the victim and the accused, the military justice system doesn't satisfy media hunger for the bread and circuses of civilian criminal trials. Those who may be charged with war crimes won't be arrested after dramatic chases down Los Angeles highways, nor will we be subjected to judges and lawyers preening before the television cameras during the trial. But because the military justice system moves much slower than politics, and because of the opportunity it poses for the antiwar crowd, the Haditha incident will create three lasting effects that will carry through to November and beyond.
First, the left will use every tool at their disposal to ensure that the Haditha incident becomes synonymous with the entire Iraq war. Abu Ghraib proved a propaganda bonanza for the terrorists and nations such as Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia that want us to withdraw from Iraq in defeat. Haditha - regardless of what the facts may turn out to be - will be used ceaselessly and purposefully to eliminate American support for the Iraq war and to demonize anyone who still supports it. Haditha will become the Orwellian centerpiece of the Democrats' claim that they support the troops. "They've been there too long," Murtha and his ilk will cry. "We have to bring them home before they kill more babies." And then the Dems, feigning concern for our soldiers, will offer them psychological counseling when they return. The political fallout will be enormous, and it will damage both the ongoing war efforts and our troops' morale.
On Tuesday, CNN -- eagerly anticipating the political impact -- reported that, "Some members of Congress have been told to brace for the fallout from potential charges of murder and cover-up..." The media will take up Murtha's charge that there is a cover-up because it fits neatly into their theory that President Bush lied us into that war. If Bush lied then, who wouldn't believe the Pentagon isn't lying now, and the Marines trying to cover up the massacre of innocents?
It will be easy for the left to drive this story into a frothing political rage because they will have the field to themselves. If anyone in the military chain of command (including civilian leaders such as Secretary Rumsfeld) says anything about the case that could be interpreted as prejudging it or attempting to influence the outcome, the charges could be dismissed under the military law doctrine that prohibits "command influence." So the Pentagon is damned if it does, and damned if it doesn't. Neither the press nor the libs in Congress would be satisfied if Rumsfeld promised summary execution of any malefactors. But if he did, and the charges were then dismissed for command influence, the same critics would be demanding his resignation for blowing the opportunity to punish anyone responsible for the alleged crimes. The fact that Rumsfeld and others won't say more will only fuel more political demands for his head - and others -- to roll.
The investigation may be completed as early as next month, but in a case such as this the decision to court-martial anyone will likely not be made for weeks or months. And in that time, all the John Murthas, the Maureen Dowds, and the Seymour Hershes of the world will be screaming in print and on the air, convicting the Marines, their leaders and every American who wants to win this war before any court-martial hears a single charge. They've already begun.
Murtha, on ABC's "This Week," said, "Who covered it up, why did they cover it up, why did they wait so long?" He's not only ready to condemn the Marines, but all their leaders. He said, "We don't know how far it goes. It goes right up the chain of command." Baloney. It's quite likely that some of the Marines involved, even their immediate superiors, tried to cover up the Haditha incident. But once the Time Magazine videotape was viewed by the staff of Lt.Gen. Peter Chiarelli - the multinational corps commander -a no-holds-barred investigation was begun. No one - among the military's senior leaders or civilian bosses - ever participated or tolerated any such cover-up. Murtha's accusations are as specious as they are cheaply political.
Second, it's no accident that Al-Jazeera was headlining Murtha's accusations more prominently than other media. The Al-J headline read, "US troops killed Iraqis in cold blood." Because of the media hype here and around the world, Haditha could become a synonym for American brutality equal to My Lai and will damage our ability to fight radical Islam around the world. And third, if as now appears likely, Marines are convicted of war crimes, Haditha could be a major blow to the morale of American troops everywhere.
We have thousands of troops in harm's way around the world. We cannot allow them to believe - as their fathers in Vietnam came to believe - that Americans regard them with the same scorn as those who may have murdered innocents in Haditha. Though he didn't say so, Marine General Peter Pace, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, may have had Haditha on his mind when he spoke at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldiers on Memorial Day. Speaking from personal experience under fire, Pace tried to explain how a soldier carries on with death staring him in the face: "It is the fear of not doing our nation's duty that overrides the physical fear," he said. "That somehow our actions will not live up to the legacy of those who've gone before. That somehow our performance in battle (will) leave the Marine or soldier on our left or our right in harm's way."
Just as the few disgraced the many at Abu Ghraib, the very few who may have committed murder in Haditha will place a burden on the shoulders of every soldier, sailor, airman, marine and coast guardsman fighting terrorism. Each of us has a duty to not add to that burden, and to help relieve it as well. If those few Marines killed innocents in Haditha, their conduct is an aberration, not the norm. It is up to each one of us to ensure that the events of Haditha do not tarnish the brave and selfless service of the many who came before, or any who come after. Except for the aberrant few, the Marines are always faithful to America. In times such as this, we cannot fail to be faithful to them.
Jed Babbin was a deputy undersecretary of defense in the George H.W. Bush administration. He is a contributing editor to The American Spectator and author of Showdown: Why China Wants War with the United States (with Edward Timperlake, Regnery 2006) and Inside the Asylum: Why the UN and Old Europe are Worse than You Think (Regnery 2004).
© 2000-2006 RealClearPolitics.com All Rights Reserved
Jed Babbin
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Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 9699
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Friday, June 2, 2006 - 12:02 pm: |
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by Jed Babbin, a former deputy undersecretary of defense in the first Bush administration |
joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 551
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 2, 2006 - 12:20 pm: |
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Yes, and included in my post.
So, what about the import of the article?
Don't like the tidings, smear the bearer.
jd |
joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 552
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 2, 2006 - 12:30 pm: |
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More food for thought, from The American Thinker blog today.
Some Thoughts on Haditha
June 2nd, 2006
As the news stories and reports about Haditha pile up, as Judge & Jury Murtha declares that it was cold-blooded murder, and as the worst possible outcome seems to be inevitable, remember: We Don’t Know What Really Happened.
If the worst did occur then those Marines from K Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines must and will be punished. I was thinking why this particular episode has affected many of us so deeply and decided it was because of all of our armed forces, we Americans love and respect our Marines, hold up them up as exemplars of valor, of perseverance, of honor. Semper Fi is much, much more than a motto.
During their previous tour 3/1 Marines participated in some of the heaviest fighting in Fallujah. It was one of their members who was involved in the controversial incident involving the shooting of a terrorist inside a mosque. As I wrote in an AT article a year and a half ago,
“Let’s look first at what the rules of engagement were for Marines fighting in Fallujah… we do know that Marines were authorized the use of force if confronted with hostile act or hostile intent.”
The previous day, the Marine in question had been wounded in the face and a fellow Marine killed by a grenade that a wounded terrorist had detonated as the two approached because the terrorist was crying out for help and for a doctor. Confronted the following day by a wounded terrorist in a mosque, the Marine killed him because, based on what had happened the previous day, he represented hostile intent. There was also the matter of self-defense and protecting fellow Marines. The Corps did not bring any charges against him.
I mention this because we do not know what the rules of engagement for Haditha were. I’m not implying here that they would allow the murder of innocents, I am only trying to supply some context and perspective.
About the same time that news of Haditha became a big story A&E aired its combat diary documentary about Columbus, Ohio-based L Co. 3/25th Marines. The only reason the 3/25th became “newsworthy” was because they’d had so many killed in action, not because of their solid achievements, their skill and courage. The documentary was powerful stuff: young Marines looking right into the camera, talking calmly about missions and everyday activities, their words spliced in with video footage of some of combat, goofing around with buddies, heart-rending scenes of young widows back home.
Their operating area included Haditha. One Marine talked about a mission in a town not long after 14 members of his company, some good buddies, had been reduced to charred body parts by a horrific IED blast. He had three Iraqis, two women and a 16 year old male, hauled out of their house. The women might be terrorist sympathizers, the young man could be a terrorist. The Marine was mad as hell and looking for revenge. But as he explained it, “if I do this I’m no better than the terrorists we’re fighting.” And he pulled himself back from the edge of that abyss.
Paraphrasing Joint Chiefs chairman, General Peter Pace, in 99.9% of such cases, Marines will find the training-instilled discipline not to pull that trigger though the temptation to do so is very powerful. When 3/25th Marines returned home they were replaced by the 3/1 Marines, on their third tour in Iraq.
Haditha is in Al Anbar province, area of operations for Maj. Gen. Stephen T. Johnson’s 2nd Marine Expeditionary Force. Units from 2nd MEF, along with Iraqi and some US Army forces have carried out a succession of operations aimed at rooting out Al Qaeda in Iraq terrorists and foreign fighters that have filtered across the Syrian border. They have been very successful, bringing increasing levels of security and stability to the region as witnessed, among other things, by large voter turnouts in recent elections.
Marine Major Ben Connable operates out of Camp Blue Diamond in the Al Anbar town of Ramadi. I wrote about him in a January 26, 2006 AT article that carried his “ground truths” about what is really going on there. Here is an excerpt:
“Local city councils are springing up in places previously under the control of the insurgents. We’re seeing a growing effort by Sunni tribal leaders, technocrats and bureaucrats to inject themselves into the political process before it’s too late…Fallujah is far from perfect but it’s a miracle compared to 2004.
“I can’t believe the meeting reports coming out of the city council. The people are energized about the elections and generally happy about the way things are going. There’s a local paper that really tells the story from the Fallujan perspective….
“The young men are signing up for the Iraqi Army and police in droves It’s not like the last time when they were sullen, looking for a quick buck and not too keen on risking their lives against the insurgents. We now see energized, motivated young guys who want to protect their families and regain some dignity. When a suicide bomber blew himself up at the recruiting station across the river from our base on January 5, killing over 40 people, most of the recruits who were not wounded got right back into line…
…what strikes me most is the way tribal leaders and local elites are talking. Whereas before their focus was our being responsible for all their problems, now they seem intently focused on themselves and on improving the Iraqi government. They talk about economic issues and getting rid of foreign fighters, about making the Baghdad government work for them…thing are of course far from perfect.
“This is still going to cost time, money and lives…still a chance this could all go to hell in a handbasket. But that chance diminishes a little bit every day.… I wish there was some way to convey how incredible it is to witness first-hand this struggle to emerge from 30 years of dictatorship, lies and fear.”
Another proof that the situation in Al Anbar has improved is that there has been a 27% decrease in terrorist attacks. Iraqi forces are assuming more operational responsibility. And along the way, the lives of Iraqi citizens have improved, schools and hospitals have been repaired or improved, water lines fixed and roads built. But of course the drive-by media will never tell you about anything positive achieved by US forces in Iraq.
Today in Baghdad Lt. Gen. Peter Chiarelli, commander, Multi-National Corps, Iraq issued a statement which read in part
“Of the nearly 150,000 Coalition forces presently in Iraq , 99.9 percent of them perform their jobs magnificently every day. They do their duty with honor under difficult circumstances. They exhibit sound judgment, honesty and integrity. They display patience, professionalism and restraint in the face of a treacherous enemy. And they do the right thing even when no one is watching. Unfortunately, there are a few individuals who sometimes choose the wrong path.”
We do not know yet if a few Marines chose that wrong path in Haditha. But if it turns out they did, we must not, we cannot allow that to erode our support for the Marines, US forces in Iraq, or for the war effort. If we do, then the terrorists and the anti-war, Bush-hating crowd wins. No, we must remain resolute and firm in our determination to see the war in Iraq, the war on terror, through to victory. Like our beloved Marines we must be Semper Fidelis, Always Faithful.
John B. Dwyer is a military historian and a frequent contributor.
John B. Dwyer
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Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 9700
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Friday, June 2, 2006 - 1:01 pm: |
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This isn't about job performance or support for the troops or professionalism or 99.9 percent of anything.
It's about launching the wrong war from day one. I think Stanley Kurbick said of Full Metal Jacket that it wasn't a pro- or anti- war movie; it's just what happens. When you go to war, Haditha happens. It can't be avoided. So when it does and people are (again) shocked, there really has been a failure of imagination on the part of a lot of people. |
Bob K
Supporter
Username: Bobk
Post Number: 11704
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Friday, June 2, 2006 - 1:24 pm: |
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Major Ben Connable is an intelligence analyst and foreign area officer (whatever that is). He is not a combat officer. He writes a lot and is regularly published in both main stream (Washington Post, USA Today) and (mostly) in right wing Blogs, in support of the Bush Administration line on Iraq.
Google him. He shows up a lot for a major. |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1396
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 2, 2006 - 1:30 pm: |
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A few perspective clarifications here -
June 01, 2006
The Haditha Story
By Jed Babbin
The accelerating media feeding frenzy over the alleged killings of twenty-four Iraqi civilians in Haditha by US Marines last November is about to overwhelm American politics. Propelled by their most irresponsible war critics, the left will try use Haditha as it used My Lai thirty years ago: as a political tool to take apart America's support for the war and to shatter the legitimacy of our cause and the morale of our troops.
Mai Lai was an atrocity added on to other atrocities and a rising American body count. Most Americans were coming to the realization that Vietnam was not a war that we should be fighting. Most Americans were coming to the realization that what was going on in Vietnam was wrong. Support for the war was already waning in the face of the draft and the realization that we were not there for purposes of self defense (very much like Iraq in THAT regard
We don't know what happened in Haditha, an insurgent stronghold in Anbar Province. Unverified press accounts allege that members of Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, First Marines, were hit by an improvised explosive device and one of them was killed. Others, according to these reports, went on an hours-long killing spree to revenge their comrade's death, leaving about twenty-four men, women and children dead. Navy and Marine Corps investigators are at work, and other reports indicate that at least three Marine officers, including the battalion and company commanders, have been relieved of duty. It's also reported that more than one enlisted man has been detained pending charges about to be brought.
Ok - he got his facts in.
No matter how quickly military investigators work, and no matter how firmly any crimes are punished, the anti-war left won't be satisfied unless Haditha becomes the lever that pushes President Bush to admit the war was wrong and set a time to withdraw from Iraq. My Lai - the March 16, 1968 massacre of about 500 Vietnamese by US soldiers - was first covered up and then exploded in headlines, courts-martial and congressional hearings. (Maureen Dowd, one of the New York Times's hyperliberal columnists, has already labeled Haditha a "My Lai acid flashback.") Screamed about by protesters, shown endlessly on television news, My Lai and the court-martial of one of the perpetrators, Lt. William Calley, provided the final political nail in the coffin of American involvement in Vietnam. We withdrew from Vietnam in 1975, abandoning our allies and hanging our heads in shame. This is the political result the left wants from Haditha, and we cannot allow it to happen for one very big reason. The Vietnam War ended in Vietnam, leaving America incapable of taking action in defense of itself or its allies for decades. The end of the war against the terrorist nations won't occur in Iraq, and we must be prepared - psychologically and politically - to continue the fight. When we lost Vietnam the enemy didn't follow us home. Radical Islamists will. If they win, we will literally lose America.
Conflating Mai Lai with any other atrocity is wrong. This is not about Vietnam, its about a horrible incident in the Iraqi occupation. Regardless of what the political climate was in 1968, the Haditha incident stands on its own as a tragedy that could have been avoided. The anti-war left will not be satisified until our troops are home safe where they belong and the morons who started this war are out of office
If it were up to Cong. John Murtha, Duke University rape case prosecutor Mike Nifong would be transferred to the Haditha case. Fortunately for both the victim and the accused, the military justice system doesn't satisfy media hunger for the bread and circuses of civilian criminal trials. Those who may be charged with war crimes won't be arrested after dramatic chases down Los Angeles highways, nor will we be subjected to judges and lawyers preening before the television cameras during the trial. But because the military justice system moves much slower than politics, and because of the opportunity it poses for the antiwar crowd, the Haditha incident will create three lasting effects that will carry through to November and beyond.
pure and utter filler. pure and utter bs.
First, the left will use every tool at their disposal to ensure that the Haditha incident becomes synonymous with the entire Iraq war. Abu Ghraib proved a propaganda bonanza for the terrorists and nations such as Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia that want us to withdraw from Iraq in defeat. Haditha - regardless of what the facts may turn out to be - will be used ceaselessly and purposefully to eliminate American support for the Iraq war and to demonize anyone who still supports it. Haditha will become the Orwellian centerpiece of the Democrats' claim that they support the troops. "They've been there too long," Murtha and his ilk will cry. "We have to bring them home before they kill more babies." And then the Dems, feigning concern for our soldiers, will offer them psychological counseling when they return. The political fallout will be enormous, and it will damage both the ongoing war efforts and our troops' morale.
They have been there too long. At least he got that right. Haditha horrible, Abu Ghraib horrible. How can they be seen in any other light? Iraq war horrible. I guess this guy doesnt like the idea of offering soldiers psychological counseling, however it seems reasonable that these people have seen things that will cause nightmares for the rest of their lives. I suppose he is in favor of cutting VA benefits when they do return
On Tuesday, CNN -- eagerly anticipating the political impact -- reported that, "Some members of Congress have been told to brace for the fallout from potential charges of murder and cover-up..." The media will take up Murtha's charge that there is a cover-up because it fits neatly into their theory that President Bush lied us into that war. If Bush lied then, who wouldn't believe the Pentagon isn't lying now, and the Marines trying to cover up the massacre of innocents?
besides the rhetoric 'eagerly anticipating' etc, if there was a coverup, it should be investigated and prosecuted. (And if Bush lied us to war it would be best if he were impeached)
It will be easy for the left to drive this story into a frothing political rage because they will have the field to themselves. If anyone in the military chain of command (including civilian leaders such as Secretary Rumsfeld) says anything about the case that could be interpreted as prejudging it or attempting to influence the outcome, the charges could be dismissed under the military law doctrine that prohibits "command influence." So the Pentagon is damned if it does, and damned if it doesn't. Neither the press nor the libs in Congress would be satisfied if Rumsfeld promised summary execution of any malefactors. But if he did, and the charges were then dismissed for command influence, the same critics would be demanding his resignation for blowing the opportunity to punish anyone responsible for the alleged crimes. The fact that Rumsfeld and others won't say more will only fuel more political demands for his head - and others -- to roll.
Rumsfeld is poorly regarded by his own military staff. His resignation has been talked about long before Haditha and this doesnt change that. The real issue is why havent there been any brass who have been called up on charged for Abu Ghraib. We are supposed to believe that a handful of low ranking national guard cooked up the whole sado masochistic, homosexual, dog fantasy themselves? I dont think so. Now it would be the best thing if the Pentagon actually did an in depth investigation and if there was a cover up then all participants should be court martialed. Americas reputation is already at an all-time low in the world. Its time we started doing the right thing
The investigation may be completed as early as next month, but in a case such as this the decision to court-martial anyone will likely not be made for weeks or months. And in that time, all the John Murthas, the Maureen Dowds, and the Seymour Hershes of the world will be screaming in print and on the air, convicting the Marines, their leaders and every American who wants to win this war before any court-martial hears a single charge. They've already begun.
I thought the mission was already accomplished. I guess by war he means war on terror? I think he is quite confused. Of course all these people will continue to speak out. Its their right as Americans to speak out about injustice and about what is right. I guess this guy is just upset that his side is getting some criticism
Murtha, on ABC's "This Week," said, "Who covered it up, why did they cover it up, why did they wait so long?" He's not only ready to condemn the Marines, but all their leaders. He said, "We don't know how far it goes. It goes right up the chain of command." Baloney. It's quite likely that some of the Marines involved, even their immediate superiors, tried to cover up the Haditha incident. But once the Time Magazine videotape was viewed by the staff of Lt.Gen. Peter Chiarelli - the multinational corps commander -a no-holds-barred investigation was begun. No one - among the military's senior leaders or civilian bosses - ever participated or tolerated any such cover-up. Murtha's accusations are as specious as they are cheaply political.
Murtha's motivations are not at issue. What he said is sound and should be investigated. If as he says it only went to the immediate supervisors then lets find out. If it went higher, lets find that out too.
Second, it's no accident that Al-Jazeera was headlining Murtha's accusations more prominently than other media. The Al-J headline read, "US troops killed Iraqis in cold blood." Because of the media hype here and around the world, Haditha could become a synonym for American brutality equal to My Lai and will damage our ability to fight radical Islam around the world. And third, if as now appears likely, Marines are convicted of war crimes, Haditha could be a major blow to the morale of American troops everywhere.
umm duh. The incident occured in Iraq. Al Jazeera reports to the middle eastern world. If this incident 'damages our ability' then we never had any ability in the first place. The only damage would be if we do not prosecute and allow it to stand as business as usual. I think the middle eastern world as a whole is pretty well upset at America for attacking Iraq in the first place. With 10s of thousands of Iraqis already dead, I dont think Haditha is going to change their minds. As far as the morale of American troops goes, they fight for each other. They fight for the guy next to them. They fight because they are trained to fight and they are good at what they do. But they are over worked, under staffed and need relief from being an occupier.
We have thousands of troops in harm's way around the world. We cannot allow them to believe - as their fathers in Vietnam came to believe - that Americans regard them with the same scorn as those who may have murdered innocents in Haditha. Though he didn't say so, Marine General Peter Pace, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, may have had Haditha on his mind when he spoke at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldiers on Memorial Day. Speaking from personal experience under fire, Pace tried to explain how a soldier carries on with death staring him in the face: "It is the fear of not doing our nation's duty that overrides the physical fear," he said. "That somehow our actions will not live up to the legacy of those who've gone before. That somehow our performance in battle (will) leave the Marine or soldier on our left or our right in harm's way."
I am sure that the troops are held in high regard by Americans both right and left. Its just that the people on the left want them supplied properly, staffed properly, have the proper support and be utilized in a way that is required for the defense of the USA.
Just as the few disgraced the many at Abu Ghraib, the very few who may have committed murder in Haditha will place a burden on the shoulders of every soldier, sailor, airman, marine and coast guardsman fighting terrorism. Each of us has a duty to not add to that burden, and to help relieve it as well. If those few Marines killed innocents in Haditha, their conduct is an aberration, not the norm. It is up to each one of us to ensure that the events of Haditha do not tarnish the brave and selfless service of the many who came before, or any who come after. Except for the aberrant few, the Marines are always faithful to America. In times such as this, we cannot fail to be faithful to them.
We agree on this about Haditha. Abu Ghraib however was not a few, the policy makers have not been punished (theyve been promoted) and that remains a stain
Jed Babbin was a deputy undersecretary of defense in the George H.W. Bush administration. He is a contributing editor to The American Spectator and author of Showdown: Why China Wants War with the United States (with Edward Timperlake, Regnery 2006) and Inside the Asylum: Why the UN and Old Europe are Worse than You Think (Regnery 2004).
He likes to editorialize, spin and kinda make •••• up
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Duncan
Supporter
Username: Duncanrogers
Post Number: 6437
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, June 2, 2006 - 2:30 pm: |
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Well this sure as hell isn't going to help any and points to my point that these guys are frustrated and overworked and it is getting to them IMNSHO
Quote:BAGHDAD, Iraq - A third set of allegations that U.S. troops have deliberately killed civilians is fueling a furor in Iraq and drawing strong condemnations from government and human rights officials.
"It looks like the killing of Iraqi civilians is becoming a daily phenomenon," the chairman of the Iraqi Human Rights Association, Muayed al-Anbaki, said Friday after video ran on television of children and adults slain in a raid in Ishaqi in March.
Al-Anbaki's comments came a day after Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki upbraided the U.S. military over allegations that Marines killed two dozen unarmed civilians in Haditha, calling it "a horrible crime." They were his strongest public comments on the subject since his government was sworn in last month.
U.S. commanders have ordered new ethics training for all troops in Iraq. But the flow of revelations and investigations threatens to undermine Iraq's new government and public support in America for President Bush's management of the war.
Iraq's government also began its own investigation of the deaths in Haditha.
In addition to the Haditha case, in which Marines are alleged to have gunned down 24 civilians in a rage of revenge for a bombing that killed a Marine in November, seven Marines and a Navy corpsman could face murder, kidnapping and conspiracy charges as early as Friday in the April shooting death of an Iraqi man, a defense attorney said Thursday.
Military prosecutors plan to file the charges against the men, who are being held in solitary confinement at Camp Pendleton, Calif., Marine Corps base, said Jeremiah Sullivan III, who represents one of the men.
The Los Angeles Times and NBC News said troops may have planted an AK-47 and a shovel near the body to make it appear as if the man was an insurgent burying a roadside bomb. Neither suggested a possible motive.
The U.S. military had no additional comment Friday on the accusations stemming from a raid March 15 in the village of Ishaqi, about 50 miles north of Baghdad.
In March, the U.S. military said four people died when they attacked from the ground and air a house suspected of holding an al-Qaida operative. The house was destroyed.
But video shot by an AP Television News cameraman at the time and aired on March 15 shows at least five children dead. The video shows at least one adult male and four young children with obvious entry wounds to the head. One child has an obvious entry wound to the side caused by a bullet.
The March report spelled the village's name as Isahaqi.
Local Iraqis said there were 11 total dead, and charged that they were killed by U.S. troops before the house was leveled.
The video includes an unidentified man saying "children were stuck in the room, alone and surrounded."
"After they handcuffed them, they shot them dead. Later, they struck the house with their planes. They wanted to hide the evidence. Even a 6-month-old infant was killed. Even the cows were killed, too," he said.
The video included shots of the bodies of five children and two men wrapped in blankets.
Other video showed the bodies of three children in the back of a pickup truck that took them to the hospital in Tikrit, Saddam Hussein's former hometown.
Police Capt. Laith Mohammed said the March 15 attack that hit Ishaqi involved U.S. warplanes and armor.
Riyadh Majid, who identified himself as the nephew of Faez Khalaf, the head of the household who was killed, told AP at the time that U.S. forces landed in helicopters and raided the home.
Khalaf's brother, Ahmed, said nine of the victims were family members who lived at the house and two were visitors.
The U.S. military, which said in March that the allegations were being investigated, said it was targeting and captured an individual suspected of supporting foreign fighters of the al-Qaida in Iraq terrorist network. It had no further comment Friday.
Maj. Gen. William Caldwell, spokesman for U.S.-led forces in Iraq, said at a news conference Thursday that "about three or four" inquiries were being carried out around the country, but he would not provide any details.
Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld on Friday defended the training and conduct of U.S. troops and said incidents such as the alleged massacre of Iraqi civilians shouldn't happen.
"We know that 99.9 percent of our forces conduct themselves in an exemplary manner. We also know that in conflicts things that shouldn't happen, do happen," he said. "We don't expect U.S. soldiers to act that way, and they're trained not to."
U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales called the allegations "very, very serious" and said the world will see a thorough military investigation.
"If people are found to have committed crimes, those people will be held responsible and they will be held accountable," Gonzales said Friday in an interview with WOAI-AM, a radio station in San Antonio. "The president expects that, and I know the leadership in the military wants to see that happen as well."
Iraqi officials and relatives also said U.S. forces killed two Iraqi women _ one of them about to give birth _ when the troops shot at a car that failed to stop at an observation post in Samarra, 60 miles north of Baghdad.
The U.S. military said coalition troops fired at a car after it entered a clearly marked prohibited area near an observation post but failed to stop despite repeated visual and auditory warnings. It said the incident was being investigated.
Army Brig. Gen. Donald Campbell, the chief of staff of the Multinational Corps-Iraq, said at a briefing Friday that incidents of misconduct could result from the stress and fear of battling an enemy that doesn't abide by the rules of war, and often cannot be distinguished from the civilian population.
"It doesn't excuse the acts that have occurred, and we're going to look into them. But I would say it's stress, fear, isolation and, in some cases, they're just upset. They see their buddies getting blown up on occasion, and they could snap," Campbell said.
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