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Message |
    
Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7338
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 6:47 am: | 
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http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/05/world/middleeast/05grave.html?hp&ex=1149566400 &en=160ee8d0f957e374&ei=5094&partner=homepage |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1403
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 8:44 am: |
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you are a very ill man, mr Strawberry.
I sincerly doubt that you will find any Saddam supporters here. I suggest that you are slandering every poster who disagrees with you.
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Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7342
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 9:18 am: |
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Yes, I am slandering every poster.  |
joel dranove
Citizen
Username: Jdranove
Post Number: 559
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 9:43 am: |
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A good read in today's New York Sun:
Steyn says it all:
For three years, coalition forces in Iraq behaved so well that a salivating Vietnam culture had to make do with the thinnest of pickings: one depraved jailhouse, a prisoner on a dog leash with a pair of Victoria's Secret panties on his head and an unusually positioned banana. "Just look at the way U.S. army reservist Lynndie England holds the leash of the naked, bearded Iraqi," wrote Robert Fisk, the dean of the global media's Middle Eastern correspondents. "No sadistic movie could outdo the damage of this image. In September 2001, the planes smashed into the buildings; today, Lynndie smashes to pieces our entire morality with just one tug on the leash."
Down, boy.
But now at last the media have their story. They're off the leash. And, if the worst rumors are true, those 10 Marines will come to symbolize the 99.99 percent of their comrades who every day do great things for the Iraqi and Afghan people. In 2004, in the wake of Abu Ghraib, I wrote that "there is something not just ridiculous but unbecoming about a hyperpower 300 million strong whose elites -- from the deranged former vice president down -- want the outcome of a war, and the fate of a nation, to hinge on one freaky jailhouse; elites who are willing to pay any price, bear any burden, as long as it's pain-free, squeaky-clean and over in a week. The sheer silliness dishonors the memory of all those we're supposed to be remembering this Memorial Day."
Two years on, it's even worse. If you examine the assumptions underlying speeches by professors, media grandees, etc., it's hard not to agree with the Wall Street Journal's James Taranto, that these days America can only fight Vietnam, over and over: Every war is "supposed to become a quagmire, which provokes opposition and leads to American withdrawal.'' That's how the nation demonstrates its "moral virtue" -- i.e., its parochial self-absorption.
Last week, Cindy Sheehan said in Melbourne that "Bobby Kennedy was assassinated by the war machine in my country." This week, Bobby's son, Robert Kennedy Jr., said in Rolling Stone that Bush stole the 2004 election. Next week, it'll be something else.
But there is more pain and more truth about America in those seven words of Martin Terrazas. A superpower that wallows in paranoia and glorifies self-loathing cannot endure and doesn't deserve to.
In the article, Mr. Terrazas was quoted as saying he doesn't read newspapers.
I agree with Steyn, and I also am not happy about the CIA misleading or negligently informing the Pres and whoever in Congress get briefed by the secret warrior class - briefed wrongly.
jd |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 3304
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 9:56 am: |
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Given that you found this in that bastion of ultra-liberalism, The New York Times, how can you say in any way that liberals support him? You are incapable of reading and understanding any of the comments by liberals on this board (or anyone who thinks Bush's moves in Iraq have been... misguided, to put it kindly). That much is obvious. So I guess this article, in a newspaper favored 3-1 by communists and socialists and anti-Americans, is the exception that proves the rule? |
dave23
Citizen
Username: Dave23
Post Number: 1809
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 10:15 am: |
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Those wascally wiberals...
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Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7343
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 10:22 am: |
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Hussein should have shot him when he had his chance..Little did he know he was shaking hands with the the man who would destroy him.
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Dave
Supporter
Username: Dave
Post Number: 9711
Registered: 4-1997
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 10:27 am: |
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and vice-versa |
Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7345
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 10:32 am: |
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Not so sure about that..If Rumsfeld is unsuccessful in Iraq it's because of Al Qaeda in Iraq. |
bettyd
Citizen
Username: Badjtdso
Post Number: 257
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 10:44 am: |
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Although he has had many, this is the dumbest, most moronic post ever on this board. When I read his posts I can feel the brain cells being sucked right out of my head. |
Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 929
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 10:46 am: |
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If Rumsfeld is unsuccessful in Iraq it's because of Al Qaeda in Iraq.
And al Qaeda is in Iraq because of Rumsfeld. |
themp
Supporter
Username: Themp
Post Number: 2986
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 10:55 am: |
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If Rumsfeld is unsuccessful
Holy ignorance! |
dave23
Citizen
Username: Dave23
Post Number: 1810
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 10:56 am: |
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Straw, do you get airline miles every time you repeat certain phrases and words? |
Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7346
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 11:13 am: |
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just "libs are morons."
That one's quite popular |
Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7347
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 11:14 am: |
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"And al Qaeda is in Iraq because of Rumsfeld."
And not in America because of Rumsfeld. |
notehead
Supporter
Username: Notehead
Post Number: 3389
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 11:16 am: |
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Sometimes I wonder if Straw has a secret arrangement with Dave to provide posts that consistently make almost every other MOL'er look absolutely brilliant by comparison. |
llama
Citizen
Username: Llama
Post Number: 792
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 11:35 am: |
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A more accurate interpretation of the question is "Why does Strawberry hate America?(and not even realize it)"
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tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4346
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 11:50 am: |
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What the Iraqis do to Saddam Hussein - speedy death, painful death, life in prison - I don't care.
However, for America to claim some victory for freedom and justice by putting Hussein on trial elevates cynicism to a whole new level. After all, he committed some of his crimes while he was our ally of convenience during the 1980's and we said nothing. |
Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1405
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 12:00 pm: |
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The Iraqi situation is deteriorating very rapidly.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060605/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_060604184324
Quagmire? No one is calling this a quagmire. It is a failure. A failure of leadership and a failure of policy. It was a mistake. An error. A crime against innocent people that lead to this, and sadly it will only get worse. |
themp
Supporter
Username: Themp
Post Number: 2987
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 12:13 pm: |
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However, don't forget, Saddam was a Hitler-like mass murderer. It's true. The whole thing is more complicated than an antiwar slogan.
I think the adminstration did a bad job in their choices. They acted on an urgency that was trumped up, and they ignored many warnings about what could go wrong. Rumsfeld, even if (God willing) we end up with a stable Iraq, will be seen as a failure. There aren't that many things that he can be said to have done well.
I think the left sees the alleged massacres, etc and says "this shows how the stress of this war is leading to abandonment of our values. It is a tragedy."
The right hears that and says "why do you hate our troops?" It's a weird non-conversation.
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The Notorious S.L.K.
Citizen
Username: Scrotisloknows
Post Number: 1580
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 12:14 pm: |
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Notorious SLK to the rescue....
Strawberry may come off brash sometimes but he does make a valid point and I understand his frustrations.
The proof can be found in the responses to his post. tjohn, came closest to even criticizing SH, but everyone else is too busy defending their own a**es and cutting Straw down. The day I come across a "Saddam was an a**hole" thread started by an MOL liberal is the day I just fall over and croak.
And the liberal community wonders why they have an "image problem" with everyday middle America (if their arrogance allows them to care)?
If I made a dollar everytime I heard some jerkoff say "Saddam was bad BUT...Saddam was evil BUT..." I wouldn't have to work as hard as I do.
But What?
Thank you Joel for posting Steyn. He always hits the nail right on the head. I love this line: "...want the outcome of a war, and the fate of a nation, to hinge on one freaky jailhouse; elites who are willing to pay any price, bear any burden, as long as it's pain-free, squeaky-clean and over in a week..."
Why don't the anti-Bush hating anti-war crowd just admit they don't want to be bothered with this Iraq thang, especially if it takes any real effort?
-SLK |
3ringale
Citizen
Username: Threeringale
Post Number: 227
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 12:15 pm: |
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What Is the Mission?
by Charley Reese
President Bush teared up on Memorial Day and said we must complete the mission in Iraq to honor the 18,000 wounded and 2,400-plus dead.
Well, I have a question. What is the mission?
Is it to overthrow Saddam Hussein? He's been overthrown and is awaiting execution by a kangaroo court we selected to do the hit.
Is it to allow the Iraqi people to hold elections? They've held three elections – one for an interim government, one for a Constitution, and one for a permanent government, which is now in place except for two Cabinet positions.
Oh, I forgot that when the president was selling this war, he said the mission was to disarm Saddam because he had all those awful weapons of mass destruction. Well, of course, they didn't exist, and now the president doesn't talk about them.
But if the purpose was to install an elected government, why are we still there? Why are we spending half a billion dollars to build the world's largest embassy, one that dwarfs Saddam's palaces and that ticks off the Iraqi people? Why, after three years and billions of our tax dollars, do the Iraqi people lack electricity, clean water and sewers? They had all those things under Saddam until we destroyed them with our bombs and missiles.
And if we want the Iraqi army to handle security, why are its soldiers still driving around in Toyotas? Where are their armored personnel carriers, their tanks, their light machine guns and light artillery? Surely there is a lot of that stuff left over. Why doesn't the president stop spreading heifer dust? We take an 18-year-old kid, give him 18 weeks of training and ship him off to combat. Is this administration saying it takes five years to train an Iraqi lad?
I think the only real mission left is to wipe the egg off the president's face. The invasion of Iraq was unconstitutional. There was no declaration of war, just a namby-pamby, you-can-use-force-if-you-want-to resolution passed by those spineless mountebanks who inhabit Congress. It was illegal under international law, since Iraq had not attacked us or even threatened to attack us. Iraq was cooperating with the arms inspectors and telling the truth about the lack of weapons. That's why the U.N. Security Council refused to give the president the resolution he wanted as a cover for his war.
Most of all, though, it was flat stupid, as anybody who knows the Middle East could have told him. To use a favorite phrase of his father, when the prez ordered the invasion of Iraq, he stepped into deep doo-doo of the camel variety. I doubt if he knows how to get out of Iraq even if he wanted to, and I don't think he does. I think he intends to stay there indefinitely.
And if that's his intention, then he should tell the American people that their sons and daughters will continue to die or be maimed indefinitely. The Iraqis are a fierce people. No elf is going to sprinkle fairy dust on them and make them fall in love with us. Why should they? We destroyed their country and caused the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children just with the sanctions, not counting the thousands we've killed since then.
The Iraqis have many admirable traits, but I don't think forgiveness is one of them. Does the president remember what the Iraqi father told an American officer when the officer asked what compensation he would accept for his son, whom one of our soldiers had killed? He said, "Ten dead Americans."
And what has the president's blundering accomplished? He's converted an old enemy of Iran into a new ally of Iran. Did he hear the Iraqi prime minister when he said no attacks on Iran from Iraqi soil will be tolerated? Did the president hear him when he said Iran has a right to enrich uranium? The president has created gas lines in an oil-rich country. He's restarted inflation and the Cold War.
Perhaps we're the ones who should be tearing up. We have two more years of this guy, and he still believes that, except for a misspoke word now and then, he's done everything right. At least he's smart enough not to go hunting with Dick Cheney. That's our small consolation.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/reese/reese285.html |
Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7349
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 12:20 pm: |
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Question for all libs.
Do you ever get tired of rooting against America? |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 3305
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 12:24 pm: |
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SLK, you wrote:
"Why don't the anti-Bush hating anti-war crowd just admit they don't want to be bothered with this Iraq thang, especially if it takes any real effort? "
I'm sorry, what effort is that? What effort is necesasry on the part of the average American? Who is being asked to sacrifice for this war? What effort is being asked of the general population to support this war? What effort are you putting forth to support this war? I don't mean getting here on MOL and defending our policies there. I mean some level of sacrifice or energy expenditure. I don't mean to put this on you specifically. No one here is being asked to sacrifice, other than the troops and their families. |
dave23
Citizen
Username: Dave23
Post Number: 1811
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 12:28 pm: |
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Straw,
I'm not quite daft enough to think of a country as a team or a war as a game. |
mjh
Supporter
Username: Mjh
Post Number: 579
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 12:29 pm: |
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"Sometimes I wonder if Straw has a secret arrangement with Dave to provide posts that consistently make almost every other MOL'er look absolutely brilliant by comparison."
Funny, I had a similar thought while reading another thread. I wondered if Kathy Leventhal could have an arrangement with Straw to attack her on MOL at every opportunity. For most readers, this amounts to a strong Leventhal endorsement, and will have us racing to the polls to vote for her.
Similarly, the YMCA has grown tremendously since Straw started his nasty campaign against them. They seem to be thriving. Coincidence? |
Rastro
Citizen
Username: Rastro
Post Number: 3306
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 12:42 pm: |
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Straw, do you ever get tire of dividing our country? It's not just the "libs." Neocons have been in control for years and they still can't get their s--- together. |
Madden 11
Citizen
Username: Madden_11
Post Number: 930
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 12:51 pm: |
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tjohn, came closest to even criticizing SH, but everyone else is too busy defending their own a**es and cutting Straw down. The day I come across a "Saddam was an a**hole" thread started by an MOL liberal is the day I just fall over and croak.
I guess the liberals on this board have better things to do than write post after post about something that is a widely accepted fact. Are you also waiting for MOL liberals to post about the color of the sky or the wetness of water? The point is that Hussein being a scumbag is not germane to where we find ourselves today. The United States is not in the business of deposing the world's scumbags. Should we be? Well, that's debatable, so let's debate. What's not debatable is that Saddam Hussein was bad. So why do you feel the need to hear it every day? |
Strawberry
Supporter
Username: Strawberry
Post Number: 7351
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 1:16 pm: |
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Talk to the NY TIMES. They published the article. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 14601
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 1:34 pm: |
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I'm disgusted and dismayed by the prison torture stories, but I'm not surprised. This happens in war. It's not right, it's not excusable, but it's expected.
This is why going to war shouldn't be taken lightly, which has happened.
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Hoops
Citizen
Username: Hoops
Post Number: 1406
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 1:52 pm: |
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Tom - I am alsu disgusted and dismayed by the torture stories. In Iraq, Guantanamo and all over the world, in all the little CIA safehouses and foreign prisons. And frankly I am surprised. I was born in 1956. I was raised through the 60's believing that America would never do the wrong thing. America stood for truth, justice and the American way. I fell for it hook, line and sinker. The moral America. The America that stands with our allies to fight the evils of facism and to help people. The America that sends people out in the peace corp and irrigates farm land for those who did not have that technology.
I am surprised everytime I see us doing the wrong thing because I believe we are better then that. I believe our system of government works when allowed to. I believe that the government of the people, by the people would be one that works to help all the people.
Man, I dont want to be wrong. I want to believe this still. That is why when I see the way this war is privatized and the press of the war sanitized and the information we receive censored or not released at all, I get angry. I get so angry that I scream at my television and I talk with my family and I speak with my friends about injustice and ignorance and the greed of those in authority.
I am really upset that we have invaded and killed so many in the name of so few. I have not fallen for any of the pre war hype.
I am not falling for any of the current hype either.
When public enemy said Dont Believe The Hype it was true then but now it is at an all time high. When the government releases canned video and stations run it as 'news'. When the government pays columnists to write what they ask. When our elected representatives really represent only the highest bidder and when last generations goons, thugs and criminals are once again empowered it is time to scream.
Change will come, it will be fast or it will be slow but it will come. |
Tom Reingold
Supporter
Username: Noglider
Post Number: 14603
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 1:58 pm: |
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Hoops, thanks for writing that. Sorry this sounds cliche, but "the first casualty of war is the truth."
If we (collectively) really believed in this war, we would make a full-on effort, with everyone joining or the government instituting a draft. We would all consider it our duty to support the war with our blood, our sweat, and our wallets.
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mjh
Supporter
Username: Mjh
Post Number: 583
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 2:16 pm: |
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_____________________________________________________
"And al Qaeda is in Iraq because of Rumsfeld."
"And not in America because of Rumsfeld"
_________________________________________________
And some people don't question the ethics of that equation, which is troubling for people who possess a conscience. |
tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4347
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 4:20 pm: |
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"However, don't forget, Saddam was a Hitler-like mass murderer. It's true. The whole thing is more complicated than an antiwar slogan."
Not really. Hitler was somewhat unique in the annals of brutal dictators in that he had the resources of the 4th largest economy at his command as well as a brilliant group of military officers. Moreover, Saddam was brutal more to maintain his power rather than as a result of political philosophy. Baathism didn't specifically call for the elimination of minority groups where as German Nazism did call for or set the stage for the murder of Jews, gays, gypsies and those with physical or mental disabilities. |
themp
Supporter
Username: Themp
Post Number: 2991
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 4:40 pm: |
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Don't overlook how bad he was in your determination to prove he wasn't a danger to America. It isn't fair to his victims. |
themp
Supporter
Username: Themp
Post Number: 2992
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 4:51 pm: |
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...the International Federation of Human Rights League and the Coalition for Justice in Iraq released a joint report, accusing the Saddam Hussein regime of committing "massive and systematic" human rights violations, particularly against women. The report spoke of public beheadings of women who were accused of being prostitutes, which took place in front of family members, including children. The heads of the victims were publicly displayed near signs reading, "For the honor of Iraq." The report documented 130 women who had been killed in this way, but stated that the actual number was probably much higher. The report also describes human rights violations directed against children. The report states that children, as young as 5 years old, are recruited into the Ashbal Saddam, or "Saddam's Cubs," and indoctrinated to adulate Saddam Hussein and denounce their own family members. The children are also subjected to military training, which includes cruelty to animals. The report also describes how parents of children are executed if they object to this treatment, and in some cases, the children themselves are imprisoned.
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tjohn
Supporter
Username: Tjohn
Post Number: 4348
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 6:58 pm: |
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Nevertheless, Hussein's brutality was not one of the reasons why we invaded. |
Foj
Citizen
Username: Foger
Post Number: 1466
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 5, 2006 - 10:20 pm: |
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Rummy is a hack, and has never read the "ART OF WAR", and if he did, he didnt get it. Rummy did just about everything wrong from the view point of SUN TZU, and 72 % of Americans.. & 86% of Iraqis.
Give me Admiral Hasley or General Patton any day. Fire Rummy NOW. |
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