| Author | Message | ||
     Tom Reingold Supporter Username: Noglider  Post Number: 14599 Registered: 1-2003  |
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen | ||
| Strawberry Supporter Username: Strawberry Post Number: 7353 Registered: 10-2001  |
boring | ||
| The Notorious S.L.K. Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1584 Registered: 10-2005 |
of course it was....the Dems couldn't of just possibly lost... | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1407 Registered: 10-2004  |
yes it was. SLK and Straw can deny it all they want, but there is no statistical chance that those exit polls were wrong. None. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3309 Registered: 5-2004  |
SLK, I try not to let my dislike of Bush affect my position on the '04 election. But I would suggest reading the article. Given how quickly Straw responded, I am sure he did not. If nothing else, it's an interesting read... | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3310 Registered: 5-2004 |
And Hoops, there is no such thing as "no statistical chance that those exit polls were wrong." The likelihood may have been extremely remote, but there is no such thing as a survey that 100% accurately reflects a much larger population. Confidence levels define how accurate a poll can be, and the only way for a poll to be 100% accurate is to include every member of the overall population in the survey population. | ||
| Robert Livingston Citizen Username: Rob_livingston Post Number: 1934 Registered: 7-2004  |
Did anyone ever doubt Bush had to cheat to win? Everyone hates that guy (except for a few of the brainwashed zombies here). | ||
| kenney Citizen Username: Kenney Post Number: 786 Registered: 11-2003 |
Does anyone doubt RL likes to stick kitchen utensils up his arse? | ||
| The Notorious S.L.K. Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1588 Registered: 10-2005 |
sorry, I had to laugh at kenney's last post, it was so unexpected....  -SLK Rastro-I haven't read the article yet but it has 1 1/2 years and considering the unpopularity of the current President you don't think nothing would of been done about it? Also, the fact that some anti-Bushies keep rambling on about the 2000 stolen election really creates a "boy who cried wolf" situation here.... I'll read it on the train tonight... -SLK | ||
| Robert Livingston Citizen Username: Rob_livingston Post Number: 1935 Registered: 7-2004 |
Ah, yes, Republicans. Raising the level of debate since 2000. | ||
| Twokitties Citizen Username: Twokitties Post Number: 444 Registered: 8-2004 |
"Boy who cried wolf"? I'd be careful using those words in any discussion even remotely tied to the President. | ||
| Southerner Citizen Username: Southerner Post Number: 1115 Registered: 2-2004 |
We plan to steal 2008 as well. But we'll let you figure out how. | ||
| The Notorious S.L.K. Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1589 Registered: 10-2005 |
RL, Give them a real challenge and maybe they will. Constant whining doesn't count.  -SLK | ||
| The Notorious S.L.K. Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1596 Registered: 10-2005 |
read the article...anyone have some tin foil I can borrow...?.  | ||
| Foj Citizen Username: Foger Post Number: 1462 Registered: 9-2004 |
From WIll Pitt at Truthout: http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/110804A.shtml Everyone remembers Florida's 2000 election debacle, and all of the new terms it introduced to our political lexicon: Hanging chads, dimpled chads, pregnant chads, overvotes, undervotes, Sore Losermans, Jews for Buchanan and so forth. It took several weeks, battalions of lawyers and a questionable decision from the U.S. Supreme Court to show the nation and the world how messy democracy can be. By any standard, what happened in Florida during the 2000 Presidential election was a disaster. What happened during the Presidential election of 2004, in Florida, in Ohio, and in a number of other states as well, was worse. Some of the problems with this past Tuesday's election will sound all too familiar. Despite having four years to look into and deal with the problems that cropped up in Florida in 2000, the 'spoiled vote' chad issue reared its ugly head again. Investigative journalist Greg Palast, the man almost singularly responsible for exposing the more egregious examples of illegitimate deletions of voters from the rolls, described the continued problems in an article published just before the election, and again in an article published just after the election. <snip> A poster named 'TruthIsAll' on the DemocraticUnderground.com forums laid out the questionable results of Tuesday's election in succinct fashion: "To believe that Bush won the election, you must also believe: That the exit polls were wrong; that Zogby's 5pm election day calls for Kerry winning Ohio and Florida were wrong (he was exactly right in his 2000 final poll); that Harris' last-minute polling for Kerry was wrong (he was exactly right in his 2000 final poll); that incumbent rule #1 - undecideds break for the challenger - was wrong; That the 50% rule - an incumbent doesn't do better than his final polling - was wrong; That the approval rating rule - an incumbent with less than 50% approval will most likely lose the election - was wrong; that it was just a coincidence that the exit polls were correct where there was a paper trail and incorrect (+5% for Bush) where there was no paper trail; that the surge in new young voters had no positive effect for Kerry; that Kerry did worse than Gore against an opponent who lost the support of scores of Republican newspapers who were for Bush in 2000; that voting machines made by Republicans with no paper trail and with no software publication, which have been proven by thousands of computer scientists to be vulnerable in scores of ways, were not tampered with in this election." ----------------------------------------------- From TIA: ----------------------------------------------- ELECTION 2004 BY THE NUMBERS 62.03mm Recorded Bush votes 59.03mm Recorded Kerry votes 122.3mm Total votes 16 states exceeded the MoE in favor of Bush 0 states exceeded the MoE in favor of Kerry 1 in 40:Probability a given state would exceed MoE for Bush 1 in 19 Trillion: Prob. at least 16 states exceed MoE for Bush 22 Eastern Time Zone states 22 EST states deviated to Bush 1 in 4.2 million: Probability 22 EST states deviate to Bush 42 states deviated from exit poll to vote in favor of Bush 1 in 1.7 million:Probability at least 42 states deviate to Bush 86 touchscreen incidents where Kerry votes switched to Bush 2 touchscreen incidents where Bush votes switched to Kerry 1 in 79,000,000,000,000,000,000,000: probability 86 to Bush OHIO Recorded Vote 2.740mm (48.71%) Kerry 2.859mm (50.82%) Bush Exit Poll 2.871 (51.03%) Kerry 2.711 (48.19%) Bush 1 in 106:Probability exit poll deviation to recorded vote FLORIDA 40.89% Dem registration: Touchscreen counties 36.77% Repub. registration 51.30% Kerry% 41.92% Dem. registration: Optiscan counties 38.98% Repub. registration 42.27% Kerry% National Exit Poll: Kerry % at 12:22am 50.84% Regional weights (13047 respondents) 50.90% State exit polls weighted by vote share 0.87% Nat Exit Poll MoE (13047 respondents) National Exit Poll Timeline of Kerry Vote %: 50.75% 3:39pm (8349 respondents) 50.77% 7:33pm (11027 respondents) 50.80% 12:22am (13047 respondents) 47.94% 1:25pm (13660 respondents) Kerry vote share 57% New Voters(13047 respondents) 65% Percent of Nader 2000 voters for Kerry 54% New Voters(13660 respondents) 71% Percent of Nader 2000 voters for Kerry Kerry share of Female Vote Pct Respondents 58% 8349 53% 11027 54% 13047 51% 13660 Party ID (Dem/ Rep / Ind) Pct Respondents 38/35/27 13047 37/37/26 13660 How Voted in 2000: 0.87% U.S. Annual death rate 3.50% approx. percent of 2000 voters who died 50.456mm:Bush 2000 vote 48.7mm:Approximate Bush 2000 voters still alive 39.82%:Maximum % Bush 2000 voters who could vote in 2004 51.999mm:Gore 2000 vote 49.2mm:Approximate Gore 2000 voters still alive 40.25%:Maximum % Gore 2000 voters who could vote in 2004 13047 Respondents 41% Bush 2000 voters as a percentage of total vote 39% Gore 2000 voters as a percentage of total vote 13660 Respondents 43% Bush 2000 voters as a percentage of total vote 37% Gore 2000 voters as a percentage of total vote National Census 125.7mm:Estimate of total 2004 vote 122.3mm:Recorded vote 3.4mm: Difference 0.30%: Census MoE Exit Poll WPE Analysis by Precinct Partisanship 6.77%:Aggregate WPE (within precinct error-1250) 1.155:Minimum alpha (57.75 Kerry/ 50 Bush) required to satisfy WPE 53%: Aggregate exit poll response rate 51.24%: Bush 2-party recorded vote 52.15%: Kerry 2-party exit poll ------------------------------------------------------------------ NOVEMBER 3, 2004 12:23 AM LONG AFTER THE POLLS CLOSED. THIS IS THE SMOKING GUN. EASY TO UNDERSTAND. CLEAR. UNAMBIGUOUS. THIS WILL BECOME THE MOST FAMOUS EXIT POLL IN HISTORY. IT WILL EDUCATE MILLIONS WHO NEVER KNEW ABOUT EXIT POLLS. IT WILL ASTOUND MILLIONS WHO KNEW ALL ABOUT THEM. IT IS THE TRUTH. 13,047 RANDOMLY-SELECTED VOTERS 1.0% MARGIN OF ERROR KERRY WON THE FEMALE VOTE BY A HIGHER PERCENTAGE THAN BUSH WON THE MALE VOTE. ******* AND MORE WOMEN (54%) VOTED THAN MEN (46%) ********* Kerry = .54*.54+ .47*.46 = 50.78% Bush = .45*.54+ .52*.46 = 48.22% YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A ROCKET SCIENTIST. IT'S SIMPLE ARITHMETIC. IT'S 1 IN 547 MILLION ODDS THAT BUSH WOULD GET 51.23% OF THE VOTE. -------------------------------------------------------------- SLK: Bush was awarded the 2000 race by the SC, he didnt have to steal anything. I keep telling that to DEMs, many dont get it, until I remind them. Additionally- Gore did win FL in 2000 by 50k+ votes. NYT & WAPO Sept 12, 2001, IIRC. | ||
| Foj Citizen Username: Foger Post Number: 1463 Registered: 9-2004 |
 Graph showing the "red shift" between 2004 US General Election exit polls & the actual 2004 US Election results. ------------------------------------------------------------- Excerpts from the Conyers report: We have found numerous serious election irregularities in the Ohio presidential election…Cumulatively, these irregularities, which affected hundreds of thousands of voters…raise grave doubts about whiter it can e said that the Ohio electors…were chosen in a manner conforming to Ohio law, let alone Federal requirements and constitutional standards. PRE ELECTION I …the following actions by Mr. Blackwell (Ohio Republican Secretary of State), the Republican Party, and elections officials disenfranchised HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Ohio citizens, predominantly Minority and Democratic voters. A. …misallocation of voting machines led to unprecedented long lines that disenfranchised scores, if not hundreds of thousands, of predominantly Minority and Democratic Voters. B. Mr. Blackwell’s decision to restrict provisional ballots resulted in the disenfranchisement of tens, if not hundreds of thousands of voters, predominantly Minority and Democratic voters. C. Mr. Blackwell’s widely reviled decision to reject voter registration applications…may have resulted in thousands of new voters not being registered in timer for the 2004 election. D. “caging: tactics” (voter intimidation through threatening letters, etc.) targeted 35,000 predominantly minority voters for intimidation, had a negative impact on voter turnout. E. The Ohio Republican Party’s decision to utilize thousands of partisan challengers contradicted concentrated in minority and Democratic areas probably disenfranchised tens of thousands of legal voters… F. Mr. Blackwell’s decision to prevent voters who requested absentee ballots, but did not receive them on a timely basis, from being able to receive provisional ballots probably disenfranchised thousands, if not tens of thousands of voters, particularly seniors. II. On Election Day A. …widespread instances of intimidation and misinformation in violation of the Voting Rights Act, the Civil Rights Act of 1968, the Equal Protection Due Process and Ohio right to vote. B. …improper purging and other registration errors by election officials that probably disenfranchised tens of thousands of voters statewide. C. There were 93,000 spoiled ballots where no vote was cast for president, the vast majority of which (were not inspected at the time of his report). D. …numerous significant unexplained irregularities. 1. Mahonig county…at least twenty-five electronic machines transferred an unknown number of Kerry votes to the Bush column; 2. Warren County locked out public observers from vote counting citing a FBI warning about terrorist threat…(no FBI threat issues); 3. Perry County...significantly more votes than voters in some precincts… 4. Butler County, down ballot…Democratic Supreme Court candidate (out polls) Kerry; III. …post election period…numerous irregularities in tallying provisional ballots and conducting and completing the recount that disenfranchised thousands of voters and called the entire recount procedure into question: A. …failure to articulate clear and consistent standards for counting of provisional ballots. B…failure to issue specific standards for the recount contributed to a lack of uniformity in violating of both the Due Process clause and the Equal Protection clause…including: 1. Counties that did not randomly select precinct samples; 2. Counties which did not conduct a full hand count after the 3% hand and machine count did not match; 3. Counties which allowed irregular marking of ballots and failed to secure and store allots and machinery; and 4. Counties which prevented witnesses for candidates from observing various aspects of the recount. C. The voting computer company Triad has essentially admitted that it engaged in a course of behavior during the recount in numerous counties to provide “cheat sheets” to those counting the ballot. …how many votes they should find for each candidate, and how many over and under-votes they should calculate to match the machine count. In that way, they could avoid doing a full county-wide recount mandated by law | ||
| Foj Citizen Username: Foger Post Number: 1464 Registered: 9-2004 |
IT'S 1 IN 547 MILLION ODDS THAT BUSH WOULD GET 51.23% OF THE VOTE. | ||
| chroma Citizen Username: Chroma Post Number: 40 Registered: 3-2005 |
So, Tom. Was it an e-coup? | ||
| Foj Citizen Username: Foger Post Number: 1467 Registered: 9-2004 |
Heres the video of the E-COUP: 46 seconds......... http://www.current.tv/studio/media/5970347 | ||
| notehead Supporter Username: Notehead Post Number: 3397 Registered: 5-2001  |
Bush was improperly given the presidency in both 2000 and 2004. It is clear to anyone with a modicum of interest and half a brain. Democracy has been totally subverted in America by the GOP and it's freedom-hating minions. Meanwhile, the mountains of evidence pointing to dozens of kinds of vote fraud, disenfranchisement, etc., go totally unacknowledged by some who literally choose ignorance. WHO is wearing the tin foil hat? | ||
| cmontyburns Citizen Username: Cmontyburns Post Number: 1853 Registered: 12-2003  |
but even if Gore had been declared the winner...you realize that it still would have been by one of the closest margins in U.S. history. In other words, nobody wanted him to be president, either. Somehow, amidst all the criticizing of Bush (who, for the record, is the worst president since organized government) and analyzing and re-analyzing of the 2000 results, Gore became JFK. | ||
| Foj Citizen Username: Foger Post Number: 1471 Registered: 9-2004 |
Indictments & Convictions envolving the 2004 recount in Ohio, are not Tin Foil Hat stuff. The first contested Electorial college certification in over 100 yrs. Jan. 6th, 2005. It was on C-Span. That aint Tin Foil hat .... is it? NO it aint. IT'S 1 IN 547 MILLION ODDS THAT BUSH WOULD GET 51.23% OF THE VOTE. | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1409 Registered: 10-2004 |
thank you for quantifying this foj. cmonty - Gore was the target of a major smear campaign and was portrayed as a stiff upperclass intellectual snob. He is obviously not. He was portrayed as a moron which obviously he is not. He may be flawed but he is honest and he would have made a tremendous president. SLK - if you think 1 in 547 million is a possibility I suggest you go run out and buy Big Game tickets and see just how likely it is you win big money. Rastro - No statistical chance. The point on the bell curve that this would fall is so tiny as to be no statistical chance. The election was stolen, the methods are shown in many places and Conyers report details many areas - not including electronic tampering - where the voters were intimidated into not voting. We are on a very slippery slope here. The rich and powerful are taking over our country, reducing our personal freedoms and tightening the survielance over all of us. It is a very small step from here to dictatorship, totalitarianism or facism. If our method of government depends on elections that are fair and true and we are not having a fair count then how are we to call ourselves a free country? - and cjc - the scale of this fraud is larger then just a local rigging of a precinct or two. This is a guaranteed result. | ||
| MBJ Citizen Username: Mbj Post Number: 223 Registered: 10-2005 |
"The election was stolen". A loser's lament. | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3322 Registered: 5-2004 |
"Stolen" is a bad word for what is being claimed. Massive voter fraud would be a better term for the claims. Victim: "He stole my wallet." Mugger: "Loser." Perhaps, but that does not negate the claim. I'm curious where the claim of a 1 in 547 million chance comes from. | ||
| S.L.K.s. Ghost Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1605 Registered: 10-2005 |
Ok, all you "the election was stolen" people,lets keep this real simple now so you can keep up. It has been almost two years since the 2004 Election, considering the consistent unpopularity of the president, how come nothing has been done about this alleged "stolen election"? -SLK | ||
| Lucy Smith Citizen Username: Lucy123 Post Number: 166 Registered: 6-2005 |
It is not that people are upset about the outcome-people on both sides of the political line should be outraged that this brazen trampling of our rights occurred and that those involved (Blackwell in particular) are so unrepentant and sanctimonious about it all. The evidence that it did occur being so vast that even Republicans in Washington are also speaking out about it. It's a frightening day for this entire country (left AND right wingers) when this Blackwell can not only attempt and succeed in all of his schemes and not be punished but to still have a political career and be running for Governor. | ||
| Lucy Smith Citizen Username: Lucy123 Post Number: 167 Registered: 6-2005 |
p.s. Thank you Tom for the article | ||
| Rastro Citizen Username: Rastro Post Number: 3327 Registered: 5-2004 |
SLK, I will reiterate that I am not convinced that wholesale voter fraud has taken place. I am starting to believe a bit, however. But it is a bit obtuse to say that there was no fraud because it has not been reported on by the mainstream press. Initially it was, and people showed little interest. The media are lazy, as we are all aware, and are for-profit businesses. If people don't care about a story, they don't continue with it. A conspiracy theorist might say they are being forced to cover the story up. But I'm not a tin-foil hat wearing loony | ||
| S.L.K.s. Ghost Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1608 Registered: 10-2005 |
Rastro: Who is being obtuse? How comes the halls of congress aren't collapsing over this? How come many of Bush's critics never bring this up? How come Feingold in his censure grab (remember that one?) cited this as a top reason to go after Dubya? These cries for impeachment don't bring this up either. Don't you think it is too coincidential that the alleged "vote fraud" occured in the very state that was hyped up months in advanced of the election as the next Florida? And the article makes some whacky allegations. Kerry conceded only because he didn't have enough evidence that fraud occured? Whatever. I think the media suffered from premature ejaculation regarding the "exit polls.." (talk about trying to influence the vote). They didn't give a chance for Middle America voting numbers to start piling in.... And BTW, Rolling Stone is known for its objective, bipartisan oolitical perspective...written by a partisan arrogant Democrat no less... -SLK | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 5056 Registered: 5-2001 |
SLK, nothing has been done because the Republicans are still in control in Ohio, and they're not going to launch an investigation of themselves. Blackwell is the Attorney General. Do you really think he's going to sic his department on himself? | ||
| joel dranove Citizen Username: Jdranove Post Number: 561 Registered: 1-2006 |
Get a life. jd | ||
| tom Citizen Username: Tom Post Number: 5057 Registered: 5-2001 |
You wouldn't be so glib if a list of questions like this was being posed about New Jersey, after they all came out in favor of the Democrats. | ||
| 3ringale Citizen Username: Threeringale Post Number: 229 Registered: 1-2006 |
The 2004 election was stolen. The 2004 election was not stolen. There have been 52 Presidential elections since 1789. For the sake of argument, let's say that the 2000 and 2004 results were fixed. Throw in Hayes-Tilden in 1876 and Kennedy-Nixon in 1960 and the grand total is 4 stolen election. That means that 92.3% of our Presidents have been legit. That's not a bad track record for an institution over 200 years old, especially when compared to electoral chicanery in some other countries. I think I'll be able to sleep tonight. Cheers PS Did I overlook any other bogus Presidential results? | ||
| Hoops Citizen Username: Hoops Post Number: 1415 Registered: 10-2004 |
but 3ringale, even if we accept that it was done the past two elections and only those you still have the same people working the same flawed technology. Did anyone vote in the primary today? The machines are made for midgets, the 'board' is hard to read and I do not have any confidence that the people I voted for actually received those votes. Electronic machines have shown themselves to be easily hackable - Foj has provided reams of evidence. How are we to believe any election? | ||
| Dogbert Citizen Username: Dogbert Post Number: 107 Registered: 1-2006  |
The way I remember it exit polls were wrong all over the country in 2004, which is why the early buzz in the day was that Kerry would win. And before you start believing all that 1 in 547 million stuff maybe you should consider that exit poll sampling might not be as random as they present it. | ||
| Elgato Citizen Username: Elgato Post Number: 62 Registered: 2-2004 |
According to Greg Palast's (BBC investigative reporter, big into voter rights) new book, plans are underway to win the 08 election courtesy of Homeland Security databases: http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/06/06/con06219.html Rastro, you're right...the media are just lazy and in it for profit. After all, GE owns NBC and I'm sure they make more advertising money on news programs than they do from selling missiles. It's in their best interests to ensure we are a well informed citizenry and they invariably drop this type of story due to lack of interest. | ||
| S.L.K.s. Ghost Citizen Username: Scrotisloknows Post Number: 1609 Registered: 10-2005 |
tom- You have got to be joking. a NATIONAL election was stolen via fraud and nothing can be done about it because Republicans are still in power in Ohio? Actions criminally affecting a NATIONAL election does not call for a FEDERAL investigation? And to this day Kerry hasn't even hinted at such charges why?And again this is coming up almost 2 YEARS after the fact why? Unbelievable....how much more self-absorbed can Kennedy and those who agree with him be? Well, at least you made an attempt to answer my questions. Everyone else seems mum. The exit polls were wrong, plain and simple, which makes me wonder if the media had an agenda to influence the election as well. -SLK | ||
| Foj Citizen Username: Foger Post Number: 1478 Registered: 9-2004 |
Heres a quiz: Who is Cliff Arneback? Any takers? SLK, Kerrys suit was thrown out, get your damn facts straight, before you type. And its not voter fraud, its election fraud. Rastro: the odds? a Treasure trove here: http://www.truthisall.net/ Not for nutin, But we got a lot of MoLers who are chinming in on this thread that dont have a fooking clue what they so called opinning on. I dont recall any of you being there in -Trenton Dec. 12th -NYC at the CBS headquarters in Jan 6th 2005 -DC, Jan 6th when Sen Boxer protested the Ohio Electors -Or any of the Essex Freeholder Meeting last year, when the Voting machines were being discussed. In fact I have a DVD of the Nov 10th meeting when I tore Peter Harveys Chief of staff a brand new one. Any body want a copy? ------------------------ more: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0411/S00142.htm http://www.exitpollz.org/cnn2004epolls/Pres_epolls/US/P/00/epolls.0.html#vote_es timate Just this one time save me the freaking trouble and google Election problems 2004. You step into my home court, you better have game ............... ALL name calling .. but no one read a damn thing, you can.. read .... can you ? .... | ||
| Foj Citizen Username: Foger Post Number: 1479 Registered: 9-2004 |
Ok -- one more... The day after election Day 2004 Wally O'Dell President and CEO of Diebold got a bonus of 36 Million dollars worth of Stock options, according to paper work filed with the SEC. Heck of a job Wally. Remember the Harry Hursti hack of Diebold just 3-4 months ago, it was all over the news. Or how about the DR Shamos hack of the Sequoia Advantage machine in PA just 2 months ago |
